Should POE's Final release have been called "Early Access?"

[Tigranes]

 

 

It was me that requested that in my OP so as to state the nature of the poll and discussion being in regards to POE as its own entity in its own right.

 

My intention has been misunderstood and misrepresented by a particular moderator who interpreted it in his own way through his own understanding.

 

Other comparisons will be made in the discussion, that is obvious, my request was to focus on POE rather than make the usual comparisons, which can become justifications for it being "the norm to release a buggy game." Many games released are relatively bug free at launch, as in they do not have 1000's of bugs, these are the games I consider as "Finished titles"

 

You basically demanded that people avoid using an extremely common and sensible standard for judging whether a game is so buggy it does not deserve to be called a final release. You also presume - mistakenly, in my opinion - that any reference to other games is an invalid 'excuse'. I dispute your premise because I believe it is biased and unrealistic. If you really want to have a discussion about this, then you can't prevent that kind of disputation. I'd be more than willing to respect and consider your views if you are willing to discuss on that level. 

 

Not to mention you break your own rule when it is convenient for you, by commenting that many games released are relatively bug free at launch - which is hypocritical. It is furthermore unsubstantiated. In order for your position to be persuasive, I'd need to see some argument that (1) CRPGs of this kind - scope, budget, resources, etc. accounted for - are capable of being "finished" by your definition, whatever that is; (2) that such levels of "finish" are actually the norm for the industry and can be reasonably expected; (3) that POE's bugginess, under whatever calculation you use and specify, is again, off the charts. 

 

Sans all of that, what you are doing now amounts to a complete elimination of all real world factors and perspectives. People demand that trains run on time. But nobody demands that your plane lands exactly in the promised minute. People demand that a book they buy always has all the pages, but they don't demand that it has zero typos. 

[MunoValente]

 

"Players won't continue to put up with paying to be game testers, being asked by publishers to help track down issues and load and reload patches for titles they paid to play. But flip that idea, and I'm sure plenty of gamers will beg to get a first look at a game for free, in exchange for their diligent testing and reporting."

 

 

 

This article might be trying to speak for all players, but it clearly doesn't.  The critical and financial success of Bethesda's games clearly shows that the market and the critical community is perfectly fine with the release and patch model, at least with large rpgs.   Players will gladly continue to put up with with being testers if it means getting their games 6 months or a year sooner and honestly having 500,000 or 5 million people playing your game will find issues a hell of lot faster than 20 professional QA people, so you probably end up with a polished product much sooner as well.  If particular player doesn't like this model they can always wait a year or so to buy the game and probably save money as well.

[Nonek]

No, ealry is not a word!

[Elerond]

To answer question in topic. Answer is no, final release of game should never be called early access, as if it is final release then it can't be early access to the game. 

[Baladas]

No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

[Elerond]

 

No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

 

 

Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access?

[Baladas]

 

 

"Players won't continue to put up with paying to be game testers, being asked by publishers to help track down issues and load and reload patches for titles they paid to play. But flip that idea, and I'm sure plenty of gamers will beg to get a first look at a game for free, in exchange for their diligent testing and reporting."

 

 

 

This article might be trying to speak for all players, but it clearly doesn't.  The critical and financial success of Bethesda's games clearly shows that the market and the critical community is perfectly fine with the release and patch model, at least with large rpgs.   Players will gladly continue to put up with with being testers if it means getting their games 6 months or a year sooner and honestly having 500,000 or 5 million people playing your game will find issues a hell of lot faster than 20 professional QA people, so you probably end up with a polished product much sooner as well.  If particular player doesn't like this model they can always wait a year or so to buy the game and probably save money as well.

 

Weelll, the commentators on the post seem to agree in general... Anyhooo.....

 

 

Here is another one:

 

Quotes:

 

"No one likes to see something he or she hates in the mirror. But the cold, hard truth of the matter is that we, as gamers, have created an environment in which releasing a bug-free, big-budget game in a timely manner is almost impossible."

 

"For better or worse, buying a big-budget game upon launch seals you into an unspoken arrangement with the developer: You become an unpaid arm of its QA (quality assurance) branch. "

 

"Of course, there will always be gamers for whom bugs are completely unacceptable, and that's a fair attitude to adopt. Unfortunately for them, though, the market has spoken, and it's not very critical of buggy games, provided they get patched within a reasonable time frame. These gamers' best recourse is to avoid pre-ordering a game if it comes from a company (like Ubisoft) with a bad reputation for day-one difficulties and to continue voicing their displeasure (civilly) via email, social media and forums. "

 

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/people-buy-broken-games,news-19952.html

 

And yes, I have read the whole article. I have not been uncivil, used abusive language or made any personal attacks while voicing my displeasure.

 

I was exited about this game so brought it immediately, looking forward to playing it.

 

I will not make the same mistake again.

 

The market has spoken.....

 

Yay!

[Baladas]

 

 

No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

 

 

Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access?

 

I am not charging you for this.

 

You can, however, pay me if you so desire.....

[Elerond]

 

 

 

No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

 

 

Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access?

 

I am not charging you for this.

 

You can, however, pay me if you so desire.....

 

 

You wasted my time and time is money, as they say, so you charged me for this...

 

But everybody is free to buy products that they feel are good enough them and if you buy products that weren't good enough then next time remember do more research before you decide to buy a product.

[Nakia]

Opinion by Brian Crecente    (This is an opinion and opinions are subject to disagreement and discussion)

http://www.polygon.com/2014/11/24/7277363/broken-video-games-are-the-new-norm-what-developers-need-to-do-to-fix

[Baladas]

 

It was me that requested that in my OP so as to state the nature of the poll and discussion being in regards to POE as its own entity in its own right.

 

My intention has been misunderstood and misrepresented by a particular moderator who interpreted it in his own way through his own understanding.

 

Other comparisons will be made in the discussion, that is obvious, my request was to focus on POE rather than make the usual comparisons, which can become justifications for it being "the norm to release a buggy game." Many games released are relatively bug free at launch, as in they do not have 1000's of bugs, these are the games I consider as "Finished titles"

 

You basically demanded that people avoid using an extremely common and sensible standard for judging whether a game is so buggy it does not deserve to be called a final release. You also presume - mistakenly, in my opinion - that any reference to other games is an invalid 'excuse'. I dispute your premise because I believe it is biased and unrealistic. If you really want to have a discussion about this, then you can't prevent that kind of disputation. I'd be more than willing to respect and consider your views if you are willing to discuss on that level. 

 

Not to mention you break your own rule when it is convenient for you, by commenting that many games released are relatively bug free at launch - which is hypocritical. It is furthermore unsubstantiated. In order for your position to be persuasive, I'd need to see some argument that (1) CRPGs of this kind - scope, budget, resources, etc. accounted for - are capable of being "finished" by your definition, whatever that is; (2) that such levels of "finish" are actually the norm for the industry and can be reasonably expected; (3) that POE's bugginess, under whatever calculation you use and specify, is again, off the charts. 

 

Sans all of that, what you are doing now amounts to a complete elimination of all real world factors and perspectives. People demand that trains run on time. But nobody demands that your plane lands exactly in the promised minute. People demand that a book they buy always has all the pages, but they don't demand that it has zero typos. 

 

I am happy you have your opinion.

 

It is not one I agree with and you are over analyzing my words and demanding unreasonable evidence to back up an opinion, an opinion shared by other people (see my links) that I do not feel I have to justify by "evidence."

 

I am not alone in my thinking and neither are you.

 

I might make this my new signature for my posts.

 

http://www.tomsguide...news-19952.html

 

"No one likes to see something he or she hates in the mirror. But the cold, hard truth of the matter is that we, as gamers, have created an environment in which releasing a bug-free, big-budget game in a timely manner is almost impossible."

[Baladas]

 

 

 

 

No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

 

 

Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access?

 

I am not charging you for this.

 

You can, however, pay me if you so desire.....

 

 

You wasted my time and time is money, as they say, so you charged me for this...

 

But everybody is free to buy products that they feel are good enough them and if you buy products that weren't good enough then next time remember do more research before you decide to buy a product.

 

How? I did not put a price tag on this post for you to send me any money for any product offered.

 

There is no product here. I do not have any of your money and I certainly cannot use the time you spent here to make myself a profit.

 

It is a poll on a forum that's all...

 

Are your really comparing this forum poll to a £30 game promoted as a finished product?

 

OK.....

[Baladas]

Opinion by Brian Crecente    (This is an opinion and opinions are subject to disagreement and discussion)

http://www.polygon.com/2014/11/24/7277363/broken-video-games-are-the-new-norm-what-developers-need-to-do-to-fix

Yes it is, but it is still an opinion.

 

And it is one I, and other people, agree with.

 

Some people on this thread are trying to make out like my opinion is totally rouge, when clearly it is not.

 

You can have an opinion on whether my opinion is valid according to others opinion and my opinion of that opinion is as valid as anyone else's opinion on yours, mine or anyone else opinion.

 

However, that is only my opinion.

 

Is it clear yet that this is an opinion?

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

 

No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

 

 

Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access?

 

I am not charging you for this.

 

You can, however, pay me if you so desire.....

 

 

You wasted my time and time is money, as they say, so you charged me for this...

 

But everybody is free to buy products that they feel are good enough them and if you buy products that weren't good enough then next time remember do more research before you decide to buy a product.

 

How? I did not put a price tag on this post for you to send me any money for any product offered.

 

There is no product here. I do not have any of your money and I certainly cannot use the time you spent here to make myself a profit.

 

It is a poll on a forum that's all...

 

Are your really comparing this forum poll to a £30 game promoted as a finished product?

 

OK.....

 

 

It is a product and it was buggy and waste of time, even though I didn't need to pay extra over time I used to read your post, it still was buggy product like one you complained PoE to be, and so if you ask one product be called early access until it is bug free then I think you should demand that other products should follow that standard including your forum polls (especially those if you are the one that demand to get bug free products).

[Nakia]

 

Opinion by Brian Crecente    (This is an opinion and opinions are subject to disagreement and discussion)

http://www.polygon.com/2014/11/24/7277363/broken-video-games-are-the-new-norm-what-developers-need-to-do-to-fix

Yes it is, but it is still an opinion.

 

And it is one I, and other people, agree with.

 

Some people on this thread are trying to make out like my opinion is totally rouge, when clearly it is not.

 

You can have an opinion on whether my opinion is valid according to others opinion and my opinion of that opinion is as valid as anyone else's opinion on yours, mine or anyone else opinion.

 

However, that is only my opinion.

 

Is it clear yet that this is an opinion?

 

I am glad that you realize that the article is just an opinion and that your opinion is just an opinion.

 

My opinion and based on your poll and other posts herein other people have a different opinion from yours.

 

Side note:

Why do people buy Early Access games/  Why do people donate to Kickstarters?  Why do people pre-purchase games?  Why do people eat junk food they know is bad for them?  Why do we do all the crazy things we do?    Because we are human beings not robots.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Nakia

[Baladas]

Hey here is another "opinion"

 

This one is a Fifty year old gamer:

 

Quote:

 

"Having lived for just shy of a quarter of a century, I can’t say I am old myself. But at least I am old enough to remember the days when games worked like everything else; when you fork out money, it is for something that works the way it should. In fact, anyone who is reading this now is probably old enough to remember those good old days where games were bug free on launch day, or if there were any, they were so obscure and difficult to reproduce that finding them actually became another objective after the actual game was completed."

 

http://www.hardwarezone.com.my/blog-game-development-releasing-unfinished-unpolished-and-buggy-games-new-trend

 

Quick.... flame him and ask him for "evidence" of his claim that in the good old days "games were bug free on launch day, or if there were any, they were so obscure and difficult to reproduce that finding them actually became another objective after the actual game was completed."

[Baladas]

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

 

 

Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access?

 

I am not charging you for this.

 

You can, however, pay me if you so desire.....

 

 

You wasted my time and time is money, as they say, so you charged me for this...

 

But everybody is free to buy products that they feel are good enough them and if you buy products that weren't good enough then next time remember do more research before you decide to buy a product.

 

How? I did not put a price tag on this post for you to send me any money for any product offered.

 

There is no product here. I do not have any of your money and I certainly cannot use the time you spent here to make myself a profit.

 

It is a poll on a forum that's all...

 

Are your really comparing this forum poll to a £30 game promoted as a finished product?

 

OK.....

 

 

It is a product and it was buggy and waste of time, even though I didn't need to pay extra over time I used to read your post, it still was buggy product like one you complained PoE to be, and so if you ask one product be called early access until it is bug free then I think you should demand that other products should follow that standard including your forum polls (especially those if you are the one that demand to get bug free products).

 

No, do you not understand the defenition of a "product" that is "sold"?

 

Here, let me help:

 

Product: (1)  an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale. 

 

OK my thread is not that kind of product. I am certainly not marketing, refining or selling this thread. Especially not selling. That would be illegal in fact.

 

Product: (2) a thing or person that is the result of an action or process.

 

OK arguably this could fall into that category of "Product" but that is not something which is sold by its definition. Hmm....

 

Lets check somewhere else:

 

"In marketing, a product is anything that can be offered to a market that might satisfy a want or need.[1] In retailing, products are called merchandise. In manufacturing, products are bought as raw materials and sold as finished goods. Commodities are usually raw materials such as metals and agricultural products, but a commodity can also be anything widely available in the open market. In project management, products are the formal definition of the project deliverables that make up or contribute to delivering the objectives of the project. In insurance, the policies are considered products offered for sale by the insurance company that created the contract."

 

OK, well I am not satisfying a market, I am not offering merchandise, I am not providing goods or commodities, selling insurance and I do not have anything to do with project management.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_(business)

 

Lets see, anything else?

 

Product:

 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/definition/product

 

A product is the item offered for sale. A product can be a service or an item. It can be physical or in virtual or cyber form.

 

"Definition: A product is the item offered for sale. A product can be a service or an item. It can be physical or in virtual or cyber form. Every product is made at a cost and each is sold at a price. The price that can be charged depends on the market, the quality, the marketing and the segment that is targeted. Each product has a useful life after which it needs replacement, and a life cycle after which it has to be re-invented. In FMCG parlance, a brand can be revamped, re-launched or extended to make it more relevant to the segment and times, often keeping the product almost the same. "

 

Errmm, nope, my forum thread is still not a product.

 

If you do want to market it, however, and make a profit from it for me, you are more than welcome to. But I wont pay you for doing any O&A on my product, you will have to pay me for the product and help me to fix it so I can then make even more profit, none of which you will ever see.

 

Wow! What an AWESOME business model!!!!!

 

Why has not one ever thought of that before???

 

Oh...

 

Wait....

 

They have, its the modern video game industry.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Baladas

[Elerond]

Games were released full of bugs 20/30 years ago as they are released full of bugs in these days too, only difference is that these days you get patches on those bugs usually, where 20 years ago that was luxury that only few PC games offered.

 

There are for example there are games for NES that can't be completed because of bugs that they have and there is nothing people can do to fix that.

 

Of course these days we see probably more behavior where game development cycle is cut shorter than it should to cut costs, because ability to release patches after release, but it is not something that didn't happen also in past. And it should be obvious if you don't like games with bugs you should not buy games before you are sure that they don't have them anymore. 

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

 

 

Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access?

 

I am not charging you for this.

 

You can, however, pay me if you so desire.....

 

 

You wasted my time and time is money, as they say, so you charged me for this...

 

But everybody is free to buy products that they feel are good enough them and if you buy products that weren't good enough then next time remember do more research before you decide to buy a product.

 

How? I did not put a price tag on this post for you to send me any money for any product offered.

 

There is no product here. I do not have any of your money and I certainly cannot use the time you spent here to make myself a profit.

 

It is a poll on a forum that's all...

 

Are your really comparing this forum poll to a £30 game promoted as a finished product?

 

OK.....

 

 

It is a product and it was buggy and waste of time, even though I didn't need to pay extra over time I used to read your post, it still was buggy product like one you complained PoE to be, and so if you ask one product be called early access until it is bug free then I think you should demand that other products should follow that standard including your forum polls (especially those if you are the one that demand to get bug free products).

 

No, do you not understand the defenition of a "product" that is "sold"?

 

Here, let me help:

 

Product: (1)  an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale. 

 

OK my thread is not that kind of product. I am certainly not marketing, refining or selling this thread. Especially not selling. That would be illegal in fact.

 

Product: (2) a thing or person that is the result of an action or process.

 

OK arguably this could fall into that category of "Product" but that is not something which is sold by its definition. Hmm....

 

Lets check somewhere else:

 

"In marketing, a product is anything that can be offered to a market that might satisfy a want or need.[1] In retailing, products are called merchandise. In manufacturing, products are bought as raw materials and sold as finished goods. Commodities are usually raw materials such as metals and agricultural products, but a commodity can also be anything widely available in the open market. In project management, products are the formal definition of the project deliverables that make up or contribute to delivering the objectives of the project. In insurance, the policies are considered products offered for sale by the insurance company that created the contract."

 

OK, well I am not satisfying a market, I am not offering merchandise, I am not providing goods or commodities, selling insurance and I do not have anything to do with project management.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_(business)

 

Lets see, anything else?

 

Product:

 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/definition/product

 

A product is the item offered for sale. A product can be a service or an item. It can be physical or in virtual or cyber form.

 

"Definition: A product is the item offered for sale. A product can be a service or an item. It can be physical or in virtual or cyber form. Every product is made at a cost and each is sold at a price. The price that can be charged depends on the market, the quality, the marketing and the segment that is targeted. Each product has a useful life after which it needs replacement, and a life cycle after which it has to be re-invented. In FMCG parlance, a brand can be revamped, re-launched or extended to make it more relevant to the segment and times, often keeping the product almost the same. "#

 

Errmm, nope, my forum thread is still not a product.

 

If you do want to market it, however, and make a profit from it for me, you are more than welcome to. But I wont pay you for doing any O&A on my product, you will have to pay me for the product and help me to fix it so I can then make even more profit, none of which you will ever see.

 

 

Anything is product that is produced by somebody, so forum posts, threads etc. are products. Did you know that your forum post are protected by copyrights because they are products in eyes of law, which is why forums EULA's must say that forum owner has right to do anything to your product that they want in their forums.

[MunoValente]

Hey here is another "opinion"

 

This one is a Fifty year old gamer:

 

Quote:

 

"Having lived for just shy of a quarter of a century, I can’t say I am old myself. But at least I am old enough to remember the days when games worked like everything else; when you fork out money, it is for something that works the way it should. In fact, anyone who is reading this now is probably old enough to remember those good old days where games were bug free on launch day, or if there were any, they were so obscure and difficult to reproduce that finding them actually became another objective after the actual game was completed."

 

http://www.hardwarezone.com.my/blog-game-development-releasing-unfinished-unpolished-and-buggy-games-new-trend

 

Quick.... flame him and ask him for "evidence" of his claim that in the good old days "games were bug free on launch day, or if there were any, they were so obscure and difficult to reproduce that finding them actually became another objective after the actual game was completed."

 

Old guy claims things were better when he was younger, that never happens.

 

Also debugging a complex RPG in 2015 is apparently roughly the same thing as debugging Pac-man.

[Nakia]

Yes, Badass, those are opinions.  What early games are being used to back up that opinion  As I have stated I have been playing computer games for years.  Early games did have bugs in the.  Not game breaking bugs but still bugs.  Those were simpler games.  Graphics was much simpler.  Sound was much simpler.   

 

However may I point out you have stated that in your opinion PoE should have been called Early Access.  In other words that it was still in Alpha or at most beta stage.  To me you seem to want to prove yourself right despite differing opinion.  If you want any of us to accept your opinion as correct you must prove it with facts.  Specific hard facts.  Quoting other opinions about games in general, games pushed out by publishers for consoles is not proof that PoE is a buggy, broken, unfinished game.

[Baladas]

 

Hey here is another "opinion"

 

This one is a Fifty year old gamer:

 

Quote:

 

"Having lived for just shy of a quarter of a century, I can’t say I am old myself. But at least I am old enough to remember the days when games worked like everything else; when you fork out money, it is for something that works the way it should. In fact, anyone who is reading this now is probably old enough to remember those good old days where games were bug free on launch day, or if there were any, they were so obscure and difficult to reproduce that finding them actually became another objective after the actual game was completed."

 

http://www.hardwarezone.com.my/blog-game-development-releasing-unfinished-unpolished-and-buggy-games-new-trend

 

Quick.... flame him and ask him for "evidence" of his claim that in the good old days "games were bug free on launch day, or if there were any, they were so obscure and difficult to reproduce that finding them actually became another objective after the actual game was completed."

 

Old guy claims things were better when he was younger, that never happens.

 

Also debugging a complex RPG in 2015 is apparently roughly the same thing as debugging Pac-man.

 

More!! More!! Flame him MORE!! How DARE he have an opinion!!

[Baladas]

Yes, Badass, those are opinions.  What early games are being used to back up that opinion  As I have stated I have been playing computer games for years.  Early games did have bugs in the.  Not game breaking bugs but still bugs.  Those were simpler games.  Graphics was much simpler.  Sound was much simpler.   

 

However may I point out you have stated that in your opinion PoE should have been called Early Access.  In other words that it was still in Alpha or at most beta stage.  To me you seem to want to prove yourself right despite differing opinion.  If you want any of us to accept your opinion as correct you must prove it with facts.  Specific hard facts.  Quoting other opinions about games in general, games pushed out by publishers for consoles is not proof that PoE is a buggy, broken, unfinished game.

No, but my EXPERIENCE of POE and other peoples EXPERIENCE of POE in some peoples opinion make it classifiable as a "buggy, broken, unfinished game." that should have been marketed as "Early Access"

 

People have had different EXPERIENCES but one EXPERIENCE does not invalidate another and vice versa.

 

Sure, I am in the minority, but that does not invalidate my personal opinion based on mine, and others, experience.

[Elerond]

 

 

Sure, I am in the minority, but that does not invalidate my personal opinion based on mine, and others, experience.

 

 

What if I say that in my opinion it does, does that mean that your experiences were invalid then?

 

 

Opinions that aren't backed by facts are just meaningless things that don't have any validity in them. In my opinion. Yeah in my opinion this is the fact. IMO. So much my opinion that it is just the opinion.

[Gfted1]

People have had different EXPERIENCES but one EXPERIENCE does not invalidate another and vice versa.

Sorry, but that's how the internet works.

 

Meanwhile, back in reality, anyone with eyes and an internet connection can easily peruse the tech support section and see that there were many challenges across all platforms. People naturally want to jump to the defense of things they like, even if it prevents them from seeing the forest for the trees.