Worst weapon types/specializations?

[Bubbles]

 

Rot Skulls is a Wand so getting Weapon Focus: Adventurer isn't a bad idea actually. Its their best level 6 spell by far after all, especially with Dangerous Implement.

 

 

The value of WF:A really depends on your difficulty level. Rot Skulls does most of its damage with its stacking DoT AoE, which cannot graze or crit. As long as the relatively feeble main attack at least grazes, you will apply the AoE. So going for +accuracy might not be worth it on easier difficulties, where the risk of a full miss with a +20 accuracy weapon during the endgame is rather small anyway.

 

It's great for PotD, of course.

 

But Dangerous Implement...? It's of very questionable worth, since it doesn't buff the DoT.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Bubbles

[Bubbles]

I thought about this some more; actually, the best way to use Rot Skulls against a high level enemy might be to cast it on one of your low-deflect summons. Since the always-hit Foe AoE is the main prize of that attack, and the summon can be freely positioned, you can do tons of that damage without ever having to roll against an enemy's defenses.

[MadDemiurg]

 

Who said barb is a frotliner though ?. With max might/dex/int build many seem to prefer he's just as squishy as any dpser. It's a pretty good rogue weapon too since rogues crit often, but they lack the aoe knockdown capability it brings with barb. For cipher it isn't much different from any other pike/quarterstaff tbh (ciphers can crit often too with mental binding and tactical meld, but knocking down paralyzed targets is kinda pointless).

 

Mad, I was less concerned about its prone ability than the fact that it's an excellent pike and ciphers do occasionally need to recharge their focus.  And there will be times in battles when it may be more advantageous for a backline cipher to put aside its ranged weapon, and use a pike to support the front liners, while working to recharge that focus pool.

 

Speaking of Tactical Meld, is that power really worth taking and using?  I guess that I've tended to take more offensive nuking powers or those that charm/paralyze/whatever the enemy.  Also, it seems like a lot of focus points to spend to simply charge up the cipher for physical combat.... focus points that you'll just have to turn around and re-earn while under the Tac Meld.

 

I will admit that there are other good pikes around that can be worth enhancing.  But there don't seem to be nearly enough decent quarterstaffs.  There are only two that are ok.  Wend Walker, which is excellent, but you get very late.  And Llawran's Stick, which you get early in the Endless paths.  But the Stick is flawed because it's only mod is "Speed", which currently doesn't work, so right now, it's effectively no better than a generic Fine Qstaff.

 

Tac meld can be cast out of combat so it's essentially free. I always assumed it's a bug, but seeing how they've changed stuff like Wild Leech but left Meld alone maybe it's intentional after all. +20 accuracy also applies to spells, so it's not only physical combat. As for cipher's focus gain - overall dps increase from +10% hit to crit is rather minimal, so it's not better than a plain enchanted pike tbh (it also has less room for damage dealing enchantments). So while you can use it for a cipher, I'd rather give it to rogue/barb if you have one. +20% attack speed quarterstaff will be a better cipher weapon for sure once the speed mod is fixed.

[Bubbles]

Some back-of-the-napkin math I did after 1.05 suggests that pistol/blunderbuss does more damage than the war bow even accounting for attack rate, provided you have the Gunner talent. That said, the starting focus nerf on Ciphers makes Greater Focus a much more tempting option (especially early), and a gun-using Cipher will have difficulty fitting that into their build, which is a good argument for using the war bow.

 

I wonder if a war bow user wouldn't be better off going for an extra weapon slot instead of Greater Focus. The extra damage from a Blunderbuss/Arquebus is still very helpful even without a weapon focus talent or quick switch, and it should give you about 7 extra focus anyway (more with buffs).

[Zwiebelchen]

 

Some back-of-the-napkin math I did after 1.05 suggests that pistol/blunderbuss does more damage than the war bow even accounting for attack rate, provided you have the Gunner talent. That said, the starting focus nerf on Ciphers makes Greater Focus a much more tempting option (especially early), and a gun-using Cipher will have difficulty fitting that into their build, which is a good argument for using the war bow.

 

I wonder if a war bow user wouldn't be better off going for an extra weapon slot instead of Greater Focus. The extra damage from a Blunderbuss/Arquebus is still very helpful even without a weapon focus talent or quick switch, and it should give you about 7 extra focus anyway (more with buffs).

 

 

I've found that warbows generally build focus faster and more reliable than blunderbusses/Arquebusses anyway.

 

So using guns for Ciphers is pretty much a waste of talent points in general, unless you attack an enemy with 15+ DR. And even then, the pack you're fighting will probably have enemies with lower DR aswell.

 

For focus generation, faster attacks trumph giant slow attacks. Often you are in a situation where you need to react fast; a terribly slow Arquebus will not do you good there. Granted, you get about 10 focus with just a single attack on an Arquebus.

So, getting off a single mental binding will require you to shoot twice with your Arquebus. Miss just once, and you will have to endure another complete loading cycle. A warbow attack only generates about 3-4 focus per hit, but you'll easily shoot twice as fast, leaving you with more opportunity to crit, getting to your next mental binding much faster. And remember that mental binding pretty much indirectly improves your further focus gain as you frequently crit against a stunned unit.

Even on a graze, mental binding allows you to hit the target at least twice with your warbow. If you're out of luck, you won't even get a single shot off your Arquebus during that time.

 

Instead of investing 3 points into gunner, quickswitch and an extra weapon slot, better invest into 3 +25% against type bonuses. Combined with another +25% against type bonus on your weapon, you more or less get a flat +25% damage against pretty much all enemies.

 

And as a rule of thumb, kith and beasts mostly have low DR scores anyway, so those are the go-to candidates for skipping.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Crucis]

Zw, for all its power, a downside to all of the guns is the accuracy penalty they all have.  For some it's -5 and others it's -10.  This probably isn't a big deal if you have a very high accuracy class character using them, but it might be a bit annoying for a character from a lower accuracy class.  I actually had GM using an arbalest rather than a arquebus, mostly because if this.  The arbalest hits almost as hard as the arquebus, is a little faster, and doesn't have that built-in accuracy penalty of guns. 

 

Also, I kinda like the Soldier WF group, because I like Pikes for GM/ciphers since it allows them to engage in melee but hide behind the far better armored front liners.  Warbows, OTOH, don't have a reach weapon in their WF group, sadly.

 

Still, I do agree that there's something to be said for higher rate of fire weapons when it comes to taking advantage of afflicting spells, like mental binding.  Plus, there's the fact that you don't necessarily feel the need to take the Gunner talent if you choose to use a bow instead of an xbow or gun.

 

Heck, I ended up giving Aloth a warbow in my last party after I picked up that Superb warbow, Rain of whatever.  I got tired of all those wimpy wands, etc.  And I've gotta say that Aloth made good use of it.  And the fact that the Speed mod on that bow wasn't a problem for me, since I kinda just treated it like a generic Superb bow.  I was just happy that Aloth was regularly pounding in arrow after arrow when it wasn't casting spells.  (I reserved the best warbow, Cloudpiercer, for my ranged rogue, since she was regularly getting crits to trigger the Jolting Touch spellstriking mod.  Man, what a beastly weapon in the hands of a ranged rogue!!!)

[Zwiebelchen]

Yeah, that's kind of the downside of using a warbow; the other weapons in the same focus category are rather lame for ciphers.

 

The only melee option in the adventurer focus group that is worth it are flails. Which are more or less weapons for low accuracy characters, so not particulary interesting for ciphers.

Starcaller/Unforgiven dual wielding could be an interesting option once the speed mod is fixed, though. Also, looks badass.

 

But when you use a warbow, you pretty much won't need a pike for meleeing anyway. I've found them to be comparable in focus generation anyway. Instead, I used a weapon with spell hold on my second slot. There is a quarterstaff with spellhold: fireball that is perfect for this.

 

However, let's not forget weapon focus: peasant, which has both quarterstaves as reach weapons and hunting bows. Persistence is actually a solid choice once you can replace the damaging 3 enchant with exceptional.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Crucis]

Yeah, that's kind of the downside of using a warbow; the other weapons in the same focus category are rather lame for ciphers.

 

The only melee option in the adventurer focus group that is worth it are flails. Which are more or less weapons for low accuracy characters, so not particulary interesting for ciphers.

Starcaller/Unforgiven dual wielding could be an interesting option once the speed mod is fixed, though. Also, looks badass.

 

But when you use a warbow, you pretty much won't need a pike for meleeing anyway. I've found them to be comparable in focus generation anyway. Instead, I used a weapon with spell hold on my second slot. There is a quarterstaff with spellhold: fireball that is perfect for this.

 

However, let's not forget weapon focus: peasant, which has both quarterstaves as reach weapons and hunting bows. Persistence is actually a solid choice once you can replace the damaging 3 enchant with exceptional.

 

Zw, depending on your party comp and weapon choices, peasant might be a better choice.  While a bow may indeed be a good option for focus generation, I'd hate to give my best bow to a cipher rather than a better ranged character like a ranged rogue or a ranger.  If I have Cloudpiercer, I want it the hands of my very best archer.  That said, late game, that Rain of whatever superb warbow with its currently non-functional speed mod can make a solid option for a cipher.  Actually, I suppose that Borrsaine could as well.  Cloudpiercer is just so excellent that I don't want to waste it on a mere cipher. 

 

As for Ciphers and melee, I tend to not want to put GM in close quarters melee unless some shadow or a fampyr gets into the party's rear and she has no choice but to defend herself.  And that being the case, as with Aloth, I tend to worry less about damage production in those situations than I do just putting a good 1H weapon and a good shield in their hands so that they can try to limit the number of hits they take while more competent melee-ers help them out. 

 

That said, around mid-game, Aloth can become a half decent melee-er in self defense with Hardened Arcane Defense, a good shield, and perhaps throw up a Fire Shield.  I kinda like using rapiers with Aloth, not because of the damage, but because ... well ... no one else uses them, they have an accuracy bonus, which is good for a wizard to take advantage of, and they're one handed, so Alth can use a shield to boost his DEFL.  Personally, I've rarely been interested in true spellsword style characters.  But that doesn't mean that one can't make a few judicious choices when building Aloth or any wizzy, and create a wizard that's capable of defending himself in melee when the melee comes to him.

[MadDemiurg]

Cipher's ranged weapon dps is comparable to a ranger or ranged rogue pre level 11 tbh and it converts into even more dps or CC through focus gain. I tend to give ciphers the most damaging weapons available. That been said, Cloudpiercer is not that great for ciphers as Jolting Touch procs do not generate any focus. Rending is nice though as it translates into smth like 1 focus per hit.

 

As for spellswords, I've managed to solo Adra Dragon + ads on PotD with a melee wizard using mostly spirit lance  so you can say they are quite decent.

Edited June 1, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MunoValente]

For a ranged cipher it might be better to take marksman rather than a weapon focus.  Then you could use whatever mix of bows, gun and implements you find laying around and setup different damage types and slaying enchantments in different weapon slots.  You could also just completely skip marksman/focus and grab a bunch of the cipher and generic offensive talents.

[Bubbles]

 

 

Some back-of-the-napkin math I did after 1.05 suggests that pistol/blunderbuss does more damage than the war bow even accounting for attack rate, provided you have the Gunner talent. That said, the starting focus nerf on Ciphers makes Greater Focus a much more tempting option (especially early), and a gun-using Cipher will have difficulty fitting that into their build, which is a good argument for using the war bow.

 

I wonder if a war bow user wouldn't be better off going for an extra weapon slot instead of Greater Focus. The extra damage from a Blunderbuss/Arquebus is still very helpful even without a weapon focus talent or quick switch, and it should give you about 7 extra focus anyway (more with buffs).

 

 

I've found that warbows generally build focus faster and more reliable than blunderbusses/Arquebusses anyway.

 

So using guns for Ciphers is pretty much a waste of talent points in general, unless you attack an enemy with 15+ DR. And even then, the pack you're fighting will probably have enemies with lower DR aswell.

 

For focus generation, faster attacks trumph giant slow attacks. Often you are in a situation where you need to react fast; a terribly slow Arquebus will not do you good there. Granted, you get about 10 focus with just a single attack on an Arquebus.

 

You can get a lot more than 10 focus per shot with a well enchanted arq/blunderbuss/pistol at max level. Shooting off one or two (depending on whether you take QS or an extra slot) pre-loaded top-of-the-line guns without a WF and then switching to war bow seems a fairly solid idea for the end game, espcially since Cipher might well be your only ranged weapons fighter (with three pure casters and two in melee).

 

For extra fun, you can put a different slaying property on every top weapon, so you can almost always have useful +25% damage boosts on your alpha strike. That should compensate nicely for the lacking WFs. Especially since accuracy is less important with the Cipher's high weapon damage modifier.

 

As for melee, it's a bit iffy on PotD, since you'll have trouble maintaining the Wood Elf bonus. The accuracy will barely matter for the guns, but it will fully affect the talents; that's not good. Since reliably applied CC and debuffs are helpful to the entire party, I see little point in going melee unless you're soloing.

[Crucis]

For a ranged cipher it might be better to take marksman rather than a weapon focus.  Then you could use whatever mix of bows, gun and implements you find laying around and setup different damage types and slaying enchantments in different weapon slots.  You could also just completely skip marksman/focus and grab a bunch of the cipher and generic offensive talents.

 

Honestly, I think that one needs to take at least one accuracy enhancing talent, whether it's a weapon focus or marksman.  I agree and have suggested the same thing, i.e. taking Marksman over a WF for a character that's going to be almost entirely focused on ranged combat, because it wouldn't feel like you've been limited to a single WF group's weapons.

 

And regarding ciphers, since you need to get hits to generate focus points, you need accuracy to get those hits, so IMO picking Marksman or a WF seems rather necessary to me.  I also like taking the in-class talent that increases the amount of focus you get from the damage you do, since that increases the speed that you gain focus.

 

[Drath]

 

For a ranged cipher it might be better to take marksman rather than a weapon focus.  Then you could use whatever mix of bows, gun and implements you find laying around and setup different damage types and slaying enchantments in different weapon slots.  You could also just completely skip marksman/focus and grab a bunch of the cipher and generic offensive talents.

 

Honestly, I think that one needs to take at least one accuracy enhancing talent, whether it's a weapon focus or marksman.  I agree and have suggested the same thing, i.e. taking Marksman over a WF for a character that's going to be almost entirely focused on ranged combat, because it wouldn't feel like you've been limited to a single WF group's weapons.

 

And regarding ciphers, since you need to get hits to generate focus points, you need accuracy to get those hits, so IMO picking Marksman or a WF seems rather necessary to me.  I also like taking the in-class talent that increases the amount of focus you get from the damage you do, since that increases the speed that you gain focus.

 

 

I would like to think there should be room enough for both. Biting Whip and Draining Whip are standard picks for dps and focus. Greater Focus is also almost a must have in 1.05 as well. Incidentally that's what Grieving Mother starts off with as well, so no wasted talents there. And yes I know you can change the skills, abilities and talents of companions manually in 1.05 by not ticking autolevel. I started my first playthrough back in 1.04 though and generally felt I would try to make do with what the devs intended in terms of abilities/talents (within reason of course, wouldn't want something too gimped, yes that refers to Bear's Fortitude for Durance lol; I guess that's one reason why I don't play him much ).

Anyway the other Cipher specific talents are a lot more situational. That leaves 3 more talents. I've made Grieving Mother more or less ranged focussed, and Ciphers should be offensively specced (more so if ranged, as there's less chance to get hit by the enemy), so one could go with Marksman and [Weapon Focus of choice] and still have an extra slot for something else, maybe Penetrating Shot or Gunner (if using firearms) or some Slayer talent.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Drath

[Zwiebelchen]

 

For a ranged cipher it might be better to take marksman rather than a weapon focus.  Then you could use whatever mix of bows, gun and implements you find laying around and setup different damage types and slaying enchantments in different weapon slots.  You could also just completely skip marksman/focus and grab a bunch of the cipher and generic offensive talents.

 

Honestly, I think that one needs to take at least one accuracy enhancing talent, whether it's a weapon focus or marksman.  I agree and have suggested the same thing, i.e. taking Marksman over a WF for a character that's going to be almost entirely focused on ranged combat, because it wouldn't feel like you've been limited to a single WF group's weapons.

 

And regarding ciphers, since you need to get hits to generate focus points, you need accuracy to get those hits, so IMO picking Marksman or a WF seems rather necessary to me.  I also like taking the in-class talent that increases the amount of focus you get from the damage you do, since that increases the speed that you gain focus.

 

 

 

You are saying this like marksman and weapon focus don't stack.

I see no reason not to pick both.

[Crucis]

 

 

For a ranged cipher it might be better to take marksman rather than a weapon focus.  Then you could use whatever mix of bows, gun and implements you find laying around and setup different damage types and slaying enchantments in different weapon slots.  You could also just completely skip marksman/focus and grab a bunch of the cipher and generic offensive talents.

 

Honestly, I think that one needs to take at least one accuracy enhancing talent, whether it's a weapon focus or marksman.  I agree and have suggested the same thing, i.e. taking Marksman over a WF for a character that's going to be almost entirely focused on ranged combat, because it wouldn't feel like you've been limited to a single WF group's weapons.

 

And regarding ciphers, since you need to get hits to generate focus points, you need accuracy to get those hits, so IMO picking Marksman or a WF seems rather necessary to me.  I also like taking the in-class talent that increases the amount of focus you get from the damage you do, since that increases the speed that you gain focus.

 

 

 

You are saying this like marksman and weapon focus don't stack.

I see no reason not to pick both.

 

 

I did say "at least one accuracy enhancing talent", meaning one or more.  Of course you can go for both.  I certainly do.

[Omnicron]

 

 

For barb you also should consider on hit effects. For example, tall grass pike has prone on crit and 10% hit to crit meaning that 10% hits will cause an aoe knockdown.

 Soldier looks pretty good then

 

Tidefall: Draining & Wounding

Hours of St. Rumbal : Prone

Tall Grass: Prone

Strike Hard: Disorientating

 

You can have fun with that all over;

 

Adventurer: The White Spire (Estoc, Disorienting), Half-Mast (Pollaxe, Prone), Gaun's Share (Flail, Draining), and Starcaller (Flail, Stunning, Spell-Striking)

Noble: Drawn in Spring (Dagger, Wounding), Mosquito (Rapier, Draining)

Ruffian: Azureith's Stiletto (Spell-Striking), Oidhreacht (Stiletto, Draining), Blesca's Labor (Club, Draining), and Purgatory (Sabre, Draining) 

 

And a personal favorite, Peasant: The Vile Loner's Lance (Spear, Disorienting) and Cladhaliath (Spear, Stunning)

 

 

First time playing a Barbarian and doing so in 1.06.

 

I now finally see how this works, pretty sweet  (I know it is old news to most, but did not see it when I did a quick search)

 

1st line reads that Durthal Crits Troll 

 

the 3/4 Targets gets hit with Jolting touch.

 

Then not 100% how it works, but carnage gives jolting touch an additional 18 "hits" 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Omnicron

[peddroelm]

 

 

 

For barb you also should consider on hit effects. For example, tall grass pike has prone on crit and 10% hit to crit meaning that 10% hits will cause an aoe knockdown.

 Soldier looks pretty good then

 

Tidefall: Draining & Wounding

Hours of St. Rumbal : Prone

Tall Grass: Prone

Strike Hard: Disorientating

 

You can have fun with that all over;

 

Adventurer: The White Spire (Estoc, Disorienting), Half-Mast (Pollaxe, Prone), Gaun's Share (Flail, Draining), and Starcaller (Flail, Stunning, Spell-Striking)

Noble: Drawn in Spring (Dagger, Wounding), Mosquito (Rapier, Draining)

Ruffian: Azureith's Stiletto (Spell-Striking), Oidhreacht (Stiletto, Draining), Blesca's Labor (Club, Draining), and Purgatory (Sabre, Draining) 

 

And a personal favorite, Peasant: The Vile Loner's Lance (Spear, Disorienting) and Cladhaliath (Spear, Stunning)

 

 

First time playing a Barbarian and doing so in 1.06.

 

I now finally see how this works, pretty sweet  (I know it is old news to most, but did not see it when I did a quick search)

 

1st line reads that Durthal Crits Troll 

 

the 3/4 Targets gets hit with Jolting touch.

 

Then not 100% how it works, but carnage gives jolting touch an additional 18 "hits" 

 

 

 

 

bug report material

[Crucis]

Damn, that's a nasty thing to do to your enemies, Omicron!  A double whammy of Jolting Touch!!!

 

I wonder if using draining weapons during a carnage attack drain from all of the enemies your carnage hits.  If so, that could be one really powerful way to heal your barbarian!

[Crucis]

 

 

 

 

For barb you also should consider on hit effects. For example, tall grass pike has prone on crit and 10% hit to crit meaning that 10% hits will cause an aoe knockdown.

 Soldier looks pretty good then

 

Tidefall: Draining & Wounding

Hours of St. Rumbal : Prone

Tall Grass: Prone

Strike Hard: Disorientating

 

You can have fun with that all over;

 

Adventurer: The White Spire (Estoc, Disorienting), Half-Mast (Pollaxe, Prone), Gaun's Share (Flail, Draining), and Starcaller (Flail, Stunning, Spell-Striking)

Noble: Drawn in Spring (Dagger, Wounding), Mosquito (Rapier, Draining)

Ruffian: Azureith's Stiletto (Spell-Striking), Oidhreacht (Stiletto, Draining), Blesca's Labor (Club, Draining), and Purgatory (Sabre, Draining) 

 

And a personal favorite, Peasant: The Vile Loner's Lance (Spear, Disorienting) and Cladhaliath (Spear, Stunning)

 

 

First time playing a Barbarian and doing so in 1.06.

 

I now finally see how this works, pretty sweet  (I know it is old news to most, but did not see it when I did a quick search)

 

1st line reads that Durthal Crits Troll 

 

the 3/4 Targets gets hit with Jolting touch.

 

Then not 100% how it works, but carnage gives jolting touch an additional 18 "hits" 

 

 

 

 

 

 

bug report material

 

 

But is it really a "bug" or just an instance of that spellstriking effect that seems grossly OP (and perhaps needs to be addressed)?

 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Crucis

[MadDemiurg]

Spellstriking is not that OP on its own, it's spellstriking + carnage that's a bit broken. Although it's far less broken after jolting touch items damage fix. Basically jolting touch procs on every target in the carnage range and then jumps to 2 additional targets, so it's carnage_targets_num * 3 hits.

[Crucis]

Spellstriking is not that OP on its own, it's spellstriking + carnage that's a bit broken. Although it's far less broken after jolting touch items damage fix. Basically jolting touch procs on every target in the carnage range and then jumps to 2 additional targets, so it's carnage_targets_num * 3 hits.

 

What the hell is "procs" (and where does it come from)? To me, the proper verb is "triggers".  I have no clue what this "procs" is.

[MadDemiurg]

Procs is a slang term for triggering some conditional ability. I think it comes from online games. Proper English verb is indeed "triggers", however "procs" is used much more often in context of gaming discussions.

[Crucis]

Procs is a slang term for triggering some conditional ability. I think it comes from online games. Proper English verb is indeed "triggers", however "procs" is used much more often in context of gaming discussions.

 

Sorry, what I meant by "where does it come from" is what is it short for.  It seems pretty clear that it's a shortened version of some other word, though it escapes me what it could be.

 

 

Edit: Hmmm....  I just googled it and the best thing I got was that "procs" means it "processed an effect".  Well that's lame.  The computer may "process" an effect, but the "character" triggers the effect by getting a critical hit, which in turn requires the computer to process said effect.  Blah.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Crucis

[MadDemiurg]

Think it's procedure, as in "trigger procedure". Not sure though.

[thefairman]

Damn, that's a nasty thing to do to your enemies, Omicron!  A double whammy of Jolting Touch!!!

 

I wonder if using draining weapons during a carnage attack drain from all of the enemies your carnage hits.  If so, that could be one really powerful way to heal your barbarian!

 

Carnage applies to all "on-hit" effects of weapons: Wounding, Disorienting, DR Bypass, Draining, Overbearing, Stunning, Convert Graze to Hit, et cetera. for the on-crit effects, i believe the Carnage attack has to crit, not the parent attack.

 

it's a wildly powerful skill.

 

as for proc, it depends on who you talk to or where you are reading as to its etymology. some say its shorthand for Programmed Random OCurrence (eg, x has a y% chance to activate z's effect). others will tell you its short for procedure. with relation to gaming, it's just a synonym for trigger, activate, et cetera.