Prevent Dump Stats

[Ink Blot]

Ah.  That *barely* exists here.  Every stat is worth having, and kicking any stat to 2-3 has a negative effect, whether it is reduced saving throws or lower health or whatever.   Int is the only real stat that can safely be dumped by a number of classes, but even those suffer a reduced duration or range on many skills, and for the main character, your soul abilities suffer with reduced int as well.  All the other stats have an acceptable penalty if you drop them below 10.

The irony is that in the original beta release, all stats started at 1 (or zero - can't recall exactly) and Obs gave you a bunch of points to raise whatever stats you wanted. There were no penalties, but a lot of people complained that it didn't make sense. So all Obs did was shift the baseline to 10 and give you fewer points to distribute. It's actually exactly the same system but with 'penalties' to 'low' stats. The resultant character is actually the same in-game.

[View619]

 

 

 

Might is not the same as Strength.

 

 

It SHOULD BE.

 

 

Well, it's not. You're free to make a mod of the attributes and see how it works, but trying to replace POE attributes with D&D is futile. Next thing, we'll be hearing about how Dexterity should affect Deflection so it's similar to the way Dexterity affects AC in D&D.

 

 

You're missing the point and spirit of the thread.  People are talking about how they think things SHOULD BE, not how they actually are.  Go rain on someone else's parade.

 

 

Fair enough, I'm approaching it in the wrong way. If Might = Strength and works in a similar manner to D&D, where do you put the spell damage and healing increases that tie back to spiritual power? Why not tie the ability to move freely in heavier armour to Constitution, which is clearly a physical stat? And why do you think players min/maxing to abuse the AI is an issue with the attributes and not the AI? No matter how you adjust the attributes, players will just find another build to abuse in-game rules.

 

Not targeting you specifically, just wondering. I wouldn't mind seeing a slight change to one or two of the attributes either, even though that wouldn't result in a system much better than what we have currently.

 

Edit

I see you have Resolve, but wouldn't that just make Might the dump stat for casters and Resolve the pump stat? It would give spell damage/healing and concentration while Might gives nothing because it's just brute strength. Then Fighters take just enough Might and dump Dexterity/Resolve for tanking purposes. Unless deflection goes to Dexterity which would probably make it the best stat in the game at that point.

Edited May 11, 2015 by View619

[scrotiemcb]

Sorry, scro, but I'd rather that things were rational, rather than made up with no rational underlying basis. Thus, I'd rather that Fort was tied to CON because it makes a lot more sense, rationally speaking.

Please note that I'm not looking at this from some hyper realism point of view. Just a relatively moderate and reasonable one. Linking Fort to Might makes no sense whatsoever to me. Period. Might (pardon the pun) as well link it to Int or Perception. Makes just as little sense. IMO, Fort should be linked to CON or nothing at all.

Which is why it shouldn't be imagined as "Fortitude."

 

It isn't hard to imagine a Might-based saving throw. For example, if something is trying to knock you Prone, it actually makes more sense that a kind of strength would prevent it from happening, as opposed to simply having a lot of health.

 

As I edited my post, Stability is a better word. We'd be going more for the concept of immovability and/or unstoppability than having a good immune system. Health is ALREADY a numeric representation of resistance to damage, to include damage-over-time.

 

So Stability or whatever would apply to avoiding Prone, slogging through Stuck or Hobbled, fighting through Paralysis, or conquering Weakness. It wouldn't make much sense against Sickened, but that's about it.

 

In essense, a Might-based saving throw would be opposite of Reflex. Reflex is about quickly getting out of the way when the enemy wants you to stay still; Stability would be about staying the corse when the enemy wants you out of the way.

Edited May 11, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[Crucis]

 

No, it'd force you to really, really think about whether you want to be dumping points in a given stat beyond a certain point.  Oh boo-hoo!  You can't build that extreme min-maxed uber OP character.  My heart bleeds for you.  (Not.)

 

And you'd get to build your character pretty much exactly the same as every other character. *golf clap*

 

My heart bleeds for you. (Not).

 

Wow, it's easy to play the snarky insult game.

 

 

 

It's a pantload of bovine fecal matter that every character would be pretty much exactly the same as every other character.

[Crucis]

 

Sorry, scro, but I'd rather that things were rational, rather than made up with no rational underlying basis. Thus, I'd rather that Fort was tied to CON because it makes a lot more sense, rationally speaking.

Please note that I'm not looking at this from some hyper realism point of view. Just a relatively moderate and reasonable one. Linking Fort to Might makes no sense whatsoever to me. Period. Might (pardon the pun) as well link it to Int or Perception. Makes just as little sense. IMO, Fort should be linked to CON or nothing at all.

Which is why it shouldn't be imagined as "Fortitude."

 

It isn't hard to imagine a Might-based saving throw. For example, if something is trying to knock you Prone, it actually makes more sense that a kind of strength would prevent it from happening, as opposed to simply having a lot of health.

 

As I edited my post, Stability is a better word. We'd be going more for the concept of immovability and/or unstoppability than having a good immune system. Health is ALREADY a numeric representation of resistance to damage, to include damage-over-time.

 

So Stability or whatever would apply to avoiding Prone, slogging through Stuck or Hobbled, fighting through Paralysis, or conquering Weakness. It wouldn't make much sense against Sickened, but that's about it.

 

 

Stability could be applied to strength/might and/or dexterity.  And yes, I agree that it's different than Fortitude.  Frankly, I'm look at fortitude as being more of an internal physical toughness thing.  How resilient are you to certain kinds of damage.  What you're describing is a different thing, which is fine.  I suppose that Stability works as well as any other word for what you're describing.  And this "Stability" save could indeed be something to use against attacks which seek to make you prone or hobbled or similar things.  It seems entirely logical to me.  Of course, one could argue that these anti-stability attacks could be changed to attacks against one's Reflex save.  It's not a 100% match, but it's sort of close.

 

 

 

[Crucis]

 

 

 

 

Might is not the same as Strength.

 

 

It SHOULD BE.

 

 

Well, it's not. You're free to make a mod of the attributes and see how it works, but trying to replace POE attributes with D&D is futile. Next thing, we'll be hearing about how Dexterity should affect Deflection so it's similar to the way Dexterity affects AC in D&D.

 

 

You're missing the point and spirit of the thread.  People are talking about how they think things SHOULD BE, not how they actually are.  Go rain on someone else's parade.

 

 

Fair enough, I'm approaching it in the wrong way. If Might = Strength and works in a similar manner to D&D, where do you put the spell damage and healing increases that tie back to spiritual power? Why not tie the ability to move freely in heavier armour to Constitution, which is clearly a physical stat? And why do you think players min/maxing to abuse the AI is an issue with the attributes and not the AI? No matter how you adjust the attributes, players will just find another build to abuse in-game rules.

 

Not targeting you specifically, just wondering. I wouldn't mind seeing a slight change to one or two of the attributes either, even though that wouldn't result in a system much better than what we have currently.

 

Edit

I see you have Resolve, but wouldn't that just make Might the dump stat for casters and Resolve the pump stat? It would give spell damage/healing and concentration while Might gives nothing because it's just brute strength. Then Fighters take just enough Might and dump Dexterity/Resolve for tanking purposes. Unless deflection goes to Dexterity which would probably make it the best stat in the game at that point.

 

 

 

View, thanks for accepting my point about the spirit of the thread.

 

 

I have no problem with the idea that spellcasters, particularly wizards, would be physically weak or at least close to average.  Yes, it would likely mean that Resolve would be a very important stat for spellcasters.  That said, I've also suggested that DEFL should be based on the combo of DEX and PER.  So this would mean that wizards who are putting points into RES for the power of their spells and concentration wouldn't be getting any DEFL out of it.

 

I will say that priests, might not be so quick to entirely dump Might if they want to have any decent ability to get into melee when needed.  And Chanters and Ciphers, I don't know.

 

I have no significant problem with warriors focusing most on the top 3 physical stats, though it's worth noting that PER would still help DEFL.  And furthermore, if Will saves were still linked to both INT and RES, if warriors were ignoring those stats, they'd be making themselves highly vulnerable to Will-based attacks.

 

It's also worth considering that I wouldn't mind seeing there be some penalties associated with heavier armors, perhaps a penalty to DEX.  How can one really use one's agility when wearing heavy armor?  And if DEX was linked to DEFL, wearing heavy armor for its high DR would conversely reduce one's agility and thus one's ability to avoid being hit.  Thus, the armor you wore would be a trade off between heavy armors which protected you better from damage at the expense of being more likely to get hit, vs. lighter armors which weren't as protective vs damage but made it a little easier for you to avoid being hit in the first place.

 

 

 

Regarding CON, I'd like to see some logical way to improve its value.  One way would be to make CON the only stat that improved Fortitude.  But as Sro pointed out, there are two different groups of attacks that target FORT.  Those that attack the target's "stability", his ability to stay on his feet or something similar.  And those that attack the target's inner physical resistance to things like disease, etc.  CON based Fort saves seem more appropriate to the latter, while one could argue that a target's "stability" should be either based on Might, Dex, or both, since it seems to me that there are components of strength and reflexes in such attacks.

 

 

 

Personally, I do think that it'd be possible to end up with something better, though what that "better" is may depend on one's PoV.  I'd prefer something more logical without being too, too obsessive about realism.  Reasonable realism?

 

 

[scrotiemcb]

So in conclusion my suggestion earlier is awesome? :3

[GrinningReaper659]

 

 

 

 

I think dump stats should exist to make character building exciting

 

I don't see what's so exciting about wasting points in dump stats once and then never doing so again once you realize they're dump stats. Dump stats are simply bad design.

 

 

 

Certain character have dump stats. Its normal. Its impossible to have every stat matter for everybody. PoE is a good example why this cant work

 

 

So you actually prefer to have a system like in the IE games where half of the stats essentially don't matter at all? Okay, that's fine (doesn't make any sense to me), but please drop the line about the possibility of making mistakes being exciting because of dump stats hmmm, should I dump WIS, INT, and CHA on my fighter and max the rest or not? Tough choice, really exciting.

 

 

And frankly, it's not any different here.  It's just a different set of stats being dumped.  And a sillier looking set of stats being dumped.

 

At least with the maxed STR, CON, DEX characters, the maxed and dumped stats made some rational sense.  But there are builds in PoE that make no rational sense are are only meta-gaming builds that I find extremely annoying, the prime example being the min STR, max DEFL fighter builds that are designed to completely abuse the game's AI by creating characters who are too weak to even carry the armor they're wearing, let alone the weight of their own bodies.

 

Honestly, I like how the old DnD stats were used better than the way the PoE stats are used.  That said, I think that the PoE stats might have more potential, if they were used in a more rational manner (as least IMO).

 

 

No, not even close. The only arguably meaningless stat in PoE is CON, and it is hugely more meaningful than the worthless dump stats in the IE games.

 

You can't get over your intuitive understanding of might and the fact that you think it should be the same as strength. Whatever, I really don't care that you wish that PoE might was the same as IE Strength, but there is no way the IE games had a better stat system than PoE. Also, does it make sense to you that someone with the charisma, intelligence, and wisdom of a squirrel seems to get by just fine in the world of Baldur's Gate and has no issue being likeable or communicating effectively? The ridiculous dump stats in the IE game made the system make no sense at all, regardless of how attached you are to separating weapon damage from spell damage.

[Luj1]

stats need way more impact

 

 

 

3% ? really?

 

 

 

 

try 10%

[VioNectro]

On "dump stats" in dnd, you guys really need to think over the concept of multiclassing. In dnd pure classes have "preferred" stats, but if you were going to take a particular prestige class or were planning on multiclassing in a particular way things got more tricky in terms of which stats to drop vs keep. Remember it is the concept of specialists and jack of all trades, adaptability vs. maxing that one thing the class can do.

[uxnu]

Actually, might is strength.

Take notice of scripted interactions and that race with huge might bonus is also biggest one, while "weakest" race is also smallest one.

Later perhaps could be explained by amount of soul they can reside in their bodies.

But i don't mind such discrepancy since it allows me to build amazing wizard that can deal damage both with magic and weapon.

[perilisk]

 

Regarding CON, I'd like to see some logical way to improve its value.  One way would be to make CON the only stat that improved Fortitude.  But as Sro pointed out, there are two different groups of attacks that target FORT.  Those that attack the target's "stability", his ability to stay on his feet or something similar.  And those that attack the target's inner physical resistance to things like disease, etc.  CON based Fort saves seem more appropriate to the latter, while one could argue that a target's "stability" should be either based on Might, Dex, or both, since it seems to me that there are components of strength and reflexes in such attacks

 

 

 

 

I've noticed the same thing. I think you could cut the number of stats down to four (essentially dropping perception and resolve), and use each of those stats as the basis for a defense. You could then derive other secondary stats from pairing base stats-- resolve from int and con, perception from int and dex, move speed from might and dex, etc. It's a little GURPSy, but if you really want to punish dumping stats (whether or not that is a good idea...), base the derived stats on the lesser of the two contributing stats rather than the average.