The Narrative/Quest Issues Thread

[Luckmann]

Alright, so, I ran into another oddity in a quest, and instead of creating thread after thread on issues that may or may not be minor, I thought I'd create a dedicated thread for Thematic, Narrative or Quest issues that aren't strictly related to bugs or technical problems and oversights.

This includes plot holes that becomes apparent during play, strange results from doing quests in ways that doesn't appear to be intended, and a general feeling that something is unfinished or unpolished. Things that do not strictly fit the bill of what would go into the Technical Support forum or in a bug report, but could still be tangibly improved or fixed, either in patches or expansions.

 

In order for it to not completely devolve into a bunch of opinions, some ground rules:

• The issue must be tangible in some fashion. This could be that a quest is unfulfilling or lack an option you'd expect based on the rest of the game or the setting, or simply has very odd results.
  
  "Ciphers have more character reactivity than Druids" is correct, but intangible. Saying "Druids are involved in quest X, but you cannot react like you would expect to react based on X, Y, Z" is tangible.
   
• The issue must be possible to address within the constraints of the game. Consider what is reasonable.
  
  An extra dialogue option or an added way to solve a quest might be appropriate if you're a Priest of Eothas, but expecting a separate quest-line that takes you across multiple maps because you're a Bleak Walker may not be.
   
• Suggest improvement. Nobody likes a whiner. There is no need to be exhaustive, and I understand that in a thread like this, it will often come down to feelings or thoughts rather than hard facts; "I think X is odd because Y"; but even a "maybe if we do XYZ instead of ABC? I don't know, it just doesn't sit well with me, it doesn't feel like it makes sense" is acceptable.
  
  Again, consider what is reasonable and can be expected.

With that said, unless a moderator takes offence, feel free to double-post as long as they're on separate issues, since there might be a timespan between the discovery of each issue. I often notice things as I play myself, and I specifically felt like creating this thread so I could contain it in one thread, instead of creating thread after thread and decide whether it's a "Story" or a "(Technical) Issue".

[Luckmann]

First up, this place:
 

There is a quest associated with it called Prison of Ice. It starts in Galawain's Maw, given by Larha, to free her sister, Alwah, to investigate why things are getting cold. Alright. So far so good.

 

And then you go there, and a priest - Vesgel - approaches you. You cannot even ask him about Alwah. Would that be stupid? Maybe, it would certainly tip your hand, that you are looking for her. Would he deny that she's there? Probably. But it's odd that you can't even mention it.

And then it continues in that same vein. You have to actually sneak around the entire place, and if you are ever discovered, the entire temple goes hostile. And then you reach the high priest, Glasvahl, and he simply tells you that they've got something going on, but doesn't explain what or why, and you cannot even really ask. You also cannot bring up Larha or Alwah.

The only option seems to be to either leave or attack him. There is no meaningful interaction of any kind with him.

As you continue savescumming and sneaking to avoid having to murder the entire temple and everyone in it, you eventually come across Alwah, and can tell her to wait there until you clear the way, or to make a break for it and run. If you choose the latter, the entire temple goes hostile again. So now you sneak all the way back to Glasvahl, and only now can you bring the issue up with him, convince him to release her, and suddenly you have access to the entire temple and can tell her to get the hell out of dodge.

Also, finally, as you approach Glasvahl even at a distance, you are forced out of Stealth as dialogue initiates. I think you can all imagine what happened when the party is on a map where discovery anywhere on half the map results in everyone going hostile.

Finally, there is a single guard outside Alwah's cell that actually doesn't go hostile even if she sees you, which is likely purely a technical issue.

 

The entire thing feels very.. unfinished. I suspect that if you choose to perform the quest relating to Rymrgand, the quest and location takes on a whole different feeling, but it should be able to stand on it's own merits, not necessitate another quest to have a reasonable degree of interaction. I think that:

• You should be able to bring the issue up right away with Vesgel, and if you push it, it could result in the aforementioned temple war.
• You should also be able to immediately bring it up with Glasvahl, if you run into him before you've found Alwah. There is no need for a great change to the dialogue beyond that point; it could be resolved peacefully or aggressively.
• You should be able to bring up the ongoings with Glasvahl. He is clearly not hostile, but you should be able to push him on what is going on, even if it results in a fight.

All the issues here comes down to dialogue choices, no tangible changes in what actually happens, but you should be able to ask reasonable questions that your character might pose. Doing Rymrgand's quest or not, there's a lot of dialogue that should probably be pulled out of that quest and made into part of basic dialogue, especially pertaining to Glasvahl.

[Venatio]

I had though Rymgrand would offer us a peaceful solution to this quest, but I had not gone to him before doing it and so was unable to test that theory. It does seem a tad wasteful, but the 10k-20k we get from looting the elves is quite the windfall all things considered. But I am always a fan of a peaceful solution, barring any necessary deaths along the way of course. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by Venatio

[fgalkin]

Uh....what? There is a way to engage Glasvahl in conversation. He tells about how his tribe were visited by a Watcher, and found out they were all reincarnated in the same group for hundreds of generations, which caused them all to Awaken to millenia of grudges and the like. They seek complete death and oblivion, so they are trying to open a gate into Rymgrand's domain. With 17 Resolve, I was able to convince them that they cannot oppose the will of a god, and they all left peacefully, and I was able to loot the temple, and free Alwah.

 

When Rymgrand asks you why the elves had to be stopped, I answered that entropy is a slow process, and should not be forced by the will of kith. He agreed, and basically went "that's right, I don't speed up or slow down for anybody."

 

I don't really have a problem with not being able to bring up Alwah at the door. The only reason you're allowed into the temple, is because she thinks you're a worshipper of Rymgrand. I suppose you COULD have a line of dialogue about it, which would result with the whole temple going hostile.

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

Edited May 2, 2015 by fgalkin

[Venatio]

Oh, good to know that there is a peaceful solution after all.My Resolve was a wimpy 10 for my Cipher so I was not able to get that option without going out of my way. Next time I will probably be a fighter or paladin with good resolve.

[Luckmann]

Uh....what? There is a way to engage Glasvahl in conversation. He tells about how his tribe were visited by a Watcher, and found out they were all reincarnated in the same group for hundreds of generations, which caused them all to Awaken to millenia of grudges and the like. They seek complete death and oblivion, so they are trying to open a gate into Rymgrand's domain. With 17 Resolve, I was able to convince them that they cannot oppose the will of a god, and they all left peacefully, and I was able to loot the temple, and free Alwah.

 

When Rymgrand asks you why the elves had to be stopped, I answered that entropy is a slow process, and should not be forced by the will of kith. He agreed, and basically went "that's right, I don't speed up or slow down for anybody."

 

I don't really have a problem with not being able to bring up Alwah at the door. The only reason you're allowed into the temple, is because she thinks you're a worshipper of Rymgrand. I suppose you COULD have a line of dialogue about it, which would result with the whole temple going hostile.

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

 

You're talking about the wrong quest. I'm was talking about the Prison of Ice quest, without ever having talked to Rymrgand or even intending to pray to him. I even made it clear that "I suspect that if you choose to perform the quest relating to Rymrgand, the quest and location takes on a whole different feeling, but it should be able to stand on it's own merits, not necessitate another quest to have a reasonable degree of interaction."

Edited May 2, 2015 by Luckmann