Relative Pacifist Achievement :)

[MadDemiurg]

There's a vendor in the keep that sells some scrolls if you've built him.

[Omnicron]

I DID IT 23 Kills  I am fairly sure this is the lowest you can go. I made a mistake and killed 4 creatures without reason so 19 is the minimum, unless you do not kill Nedmar. Managed to run the whole game solo on PotD  I am fairly impressed by Obsidian that they made it possible to take this path, got all the xp I needed with high enough sneak, resolve, and mechanics. Good job 

 

 

 

 

A HUGE thank you to MadDemiurg for the video he posted in my TCS Wizard Thread. I used the same strategy for this fight. I managed to get to 10 Lore with an item and and Hylea's Boon, so I did not need the scroll to boost it. 5 Confusion Scroll, 10 Maelstrom scrolls, 1 Adra Beetle, 5xWarpaint, Obsidian Lamb

Also a big thank you for comments on this thread which helped me save kills and knownastherat's method for bypassing the Wraiths in Caed Nua

 

 

What happened was that it played out really smoothy, with using confusion and whisper of treason  on headsman to get them to fight one another. Thoas got to low health and went into the judge and I managed to kill both statues at the same time. With just Thoas remaining and wearing fast boots with a fast bow I could run away from him. I literally ran in circles while he tried to cast at me, and then he wanted to land a melee hit and he never reached me. He was quite adamant, since he never cast a single spell again Kept him slow with cripple and rotfinger gloves and just shot him with Lenas Êr

 

Other items:

Rotfinger Gloves (Globes of Mechanics for most of the game)

Munacra Arret

Blaidh Golan (Scales of the Raven was useful for Sneaking with boots of Speed)

Boots of Speed (Stealth boots from Doemenals was useful for early game)

Broad Belt of Power

Galfathan Adraswen (for the Lore Bonus)

 

 

 

Talents:

Crippling Strike (very useful, helped me a lot even in the last fight)

Escape (not as useful as you would think, can be helpful but not essential. Basically saves you a do-over if you stuck behind enemies)

Shadowing Beyond (essential obviously)

Deep Pockets (makes the last fight possible)

Fast Runner (very useful, was also essential to my victory)

Dirty & Vicious Fighting (invisible benefit, so not sure. Was too busy running to see)

Reckless Assult (Helps with Accuracy and damage vs Thaos, same as Weapon focus)

Deep Wounds (also super good in last fight)

Finishing Blow (look at pic where I killed him  It was very satisfying to use it for my last blow But not essential)

Weapon Focus Peasant (helped I am sure, still missed 50% of my shots even with this)

 

I was also contemplating Envenomed Strike but I figured hitting him reliably was more important. 

 

You also need 2 Benevolent and 2 Aggressive to avoid a fight and very importantly you need a dungeon, thank you once again Xaratas for helping me here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79522-conversation-options-missing/

 

 

My Kills: 

 (Day 27 is in Heritage Hill Tower Level 1)

 

Edit NB: The the 4 kills on Burial Isle here are not needed. It is an easy pull with summons and use SB to run to the broken starcase. You can trigger the transition before they come back from slaughtering your shades. so 19 is the minimum.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Omnicron

[knownastherat]

Very nice. btw do you have any notes on  Cliaban Rilag? Because I have not found way through it without defeated as reported in the initial "pacifizm" thread.

 

To compare, I had more in prologue (wolves and spiders but iirc I cleared it all unaware it would count since companions don't), mentioned Forgotten, spiders in Dyrford cave killed by friendlies, but quest wise it sounds similar to my experience. Thief for key perhaps and ambush in Copperlane were avoidable in my run. There are quite few peaceful solutions by default, good job Obsidian indeed, though some encounters require Rogue or similar disengagement ability so that kind of borderline. Then again, the limit is <175 for achievement? so that's plenty.

Edited May 16, 2015 by knownastherat

[MadDemiurg]

I wonder if this is doable with a priest (figurines + withdraw self). I mean, 23 kills . 175 I'm sure is doable by anyone using proper path, although some starting points in either stealth, mechanics or lore would help. Never tried pacifist myself really.

Edited May 16, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Omnicron]

Very nice. btw do you have any notes on  Cliaban Rilag? Because I have not found way through it without defeated as reported in the initial "pacifizm" thread.

 

To compare, I had more in prologue (wolves and spiders but iirc I cleared it all unaware it would count since companions don't), mentioned Forgotten, spiders in Dyrford cave killed by friendlies, but quest wise it sounds similar to my experience. Thief for key perhaps and ambush in Copperlane were avoidable in my run. There are quite few peaceful solutions by default, good job Obsidian indeed, though some encounters require Rogue or similar disengagement ability so that kind of borderline. Then again, the limit is <175 for achievement? so that's plenty.

 

Will let you know, I am trying it again because  remember the room with the mushrooms being one of the hardest ones. I am failing badly doing it again from my old save, will let you know when I figure it out again True that Shadowing Beyond is a big part of keeping it to a minimum, but I think any class can keep it <175

 

 

I wonder if this is doable with a priest (figurines + withdraw self). I mean, 23 kills . 175 I'm sure is doable by anyone using proper path, although some starting points in either stealth, mechanics or lore would help. Never tried pacifist myself really.

 

I found 10 Stealth to be the Sweet Spot, using boots to boost it. Choosing a class which starts with a bonus to stealth and a stealth background also gives you 2 points, so that is 4 free points which is a lot, so you only need to invest 6. It allows you to also have good mechanics and to focus on lore in the end. Thing is I always felt like I had just the right balance between mechanics and stealth do do the quests available.  I think you might need 2 stealth to get past wolves and "bandits" in encampment, but 1 might also do it. So any class that starts with a point to stealth is highly favored (do any other classes get stealth?) The thing is you only need lore for the endgame, so mechanics and stealth are both great starting skills which again favors rogue. But you might be able to do it with a class which gets a bonus to lore, idk

Edited May 17, 2015 by Omnicron

[MadDemiurg]

Classes that start with bonus to stealth:

+1: Rogue, Cipher, Monk, Ranger

Classes that start with bonus to mechanics:

+2: Rogue

+1: Wizard, Cipher, Chanter

Classes that start with bonus to Lore:

+2: Wizard, Chanter, Priest

+1: Fighter, Paladin, Cipher, Druid

 

Looks like Rogue and Cipher are the most suitable skill wise. But I'd give some other classes in the list a go too. Ranger has extra hassle of needing to stealth his companion, even though companion's stealth skill seems to be humongous.

Edited May 17, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Omnicron]

Ok I took my character to Cilaban Ring and I have no idea how I got past last time, I keep failing one or two tiles before I can teleport into the next level. 

 

I do remember a few things: I used sugar, I went via to top path around the central obstruction, that I did not use SB or figurines because the spores will detect you by the stairs, and finally that I "teleported" into the next level. You wont be able to get to the stairs but you will get close enough for the game to let you go down. I also remember that the three sporeling patrol the bottom area and I know that they swap between the spores. 1-2, 2-1, 3-0, 0-3. Not in that order, but basically there will be a time when there are no sporelings next to the mushroom on the right and that is likely when you can get close enough to teleport though, I had 10 stealth, unless I used an inn to boost it.

 

Here is my savegame from level 2 of the ruins: https://www.sendspace.com/file/4a13yu

 I was fairly sure I would have to kill this room and while playing around with possibilities of sneak paths I think I got lucky and just, just made it in. Not sure if it is worth it, I was ready to give up on it when I got through. Sorry that is not super helpful 

 

MadDemiurg, on 17 May 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Classes that start with bonus to stealth:

+1: Rogue, Cipher, Monk, Ranger

Classes that start with bonus to mechanics:

+2: Rogue

+1: Wizard, Cipher, Chanter

Classes that start with bonus to Lore:

+2: Wizard, Chanter, Priest

+1: Fighter, Paladin, Cipher, Druid

 

Looks like Rogue and Cipher are the most suitable skill wise. But I'd give some other classes in the list a go too. Ranger has extra hassle of needing to stealth his companion, even though companion's stealth skill seems to be humongous.

 

 

The thing that might be tricky here is that the stealth +2 boots are a guaranteed item you can buy, but it is rogue only. There are other +2 stealth boots, but they are random loot Good luck, if you are going to try this, I am curious how it works out, especially Priest

Edited May 17, 2015 by Omnicron

[MadDemiurg]

Potential non Rogue wonky disengagement combos:

 

Wizard:

• Veil + fleet feet
• Summons + dimensional shift (15 m range)

Priest

• Summons + withdraw (well, this is good enough to deserve not being called wonky)

Ranger

• Distract with companion + master's call (need to check range on this one)

Any other ideas?

Edited May 17, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[knownastherat]

Barbarian Wild Sprint lol if there is anywhere to sprint to. Never actually tried Wiz shift. Sounds awesome, for stuff like this.

[MadDemiurg]

 

The thing that might be tricky here is that the stealth +2 boots are a guaranteed item you can buy, but it is rogue only. There are other +2 stealth boots, but they are random loot Good luck, if you are going to try this, I am curious how it works out, especially Priest

Well, there is also +2 stealth armor from Domnel's Dyrford quest, but I don't remember if you get to loot it if you let the thugs do the dirty work.

 

And also +2 stealth helmet from Parable of Wael quest, but the only way to get it with 0 kills is to lure the party to the lions or treants... Might try that.

 

Higher lore of some classes can be put to use by utilizing stealth/mechanics scrolls for critical places.

 

 

Barbarian Wild Sprint lol if there is anywhere to sprint to. Never actually tried Wiz shift. Sounds awesome, for stuff like this.

Yeah, also paladin's zealous "charge" . Not anywhere near as good as priest sanctuary or wizard teleport though.

Edited May 17, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MadDemiurg]

Challenge accepted.

 

[Omnicron]

Hahaha, I stuffed up, I killed those 4 druid-like creatures at the base of the broken staircase in Burial Isle without even trying a pull. Just though of it today wondering why I assumed I could not sneak past. It is a very easy pull, they aggro very far and you can climb up before they get back 

 

So 19 would be the minimum number of kills if you are lucky enough to manage getting though Cilaban Ring without any kills.

 

I went back and tried to see how one would go about clearing the mushroom room with minimal kills. Tried to kill the one plant that keeps detecting me but it is not possible. Will have to work via the bottom and you might be able to keep the kill score as low as 5 in that room, but probably more likely to be 8-11 depending how many you pull from the other side of the room. 

Edited May 17, 2015 by Omnicron

[MadDemiurg]

It's possible to kill Maerwald without actually getting any tribute for it . Tactics: lure him out, run to the beetles, withdraw, watch them kill each other. There are also looters and spiders if that's not enough. And 4 withdraw attempts. Save animat until the end to lure any remaining enemies away from you. This is actually the first fight where withdraw was useful (and a very easy one thanks to it).

 

So far so good, heading to Defiance bay with 8 kills. The beginning is pretty hardcore for the class with no initial points in stealth/mechanics if you want to avoid kills. I essentially had to feed Calisca to the spiders to avoid killing them. Greenpeace would be proud. Nevertheless its doable, although in an actual playthrough I wouldn't bother avoiding some extra kills as its too much hassle.

[Omnicron]

It's possible to kill Maerwald without actually getting any tribute for it . Tactics: lure him out, run to the beetles, withdraw, watch them kill each other. There are also looters and spiders if that's not enough. And 4 withdraw attempts. Save animat until the end to lure any remaining enemies away from you. This is actually the first fight where withdraw was useful (and a very easy one thanks to it).

 

So far so good, heading to Defiance bay with 8 kills. The beginning is pretty hardcore for the class with no initial points in stealth/mechanics if you want to avoid kills. I essentially had to feed Calisca to the spiders to avoid killing them. Greenpeace would be proud. Nevertheless its doable, although in an actual playthrough I wouldn't bother avoiding some extra kills as its too much hassle.

 Nice, so did you leave combat with the Withdraw spell for Maerwald?  Because I always got he kill even though I did not touch him.

 

I also did not know you could use Calista to pull the spiders, I figured you would still need to get her to the door to leave?  

 

Like you can see I was at 10 kills when I went to DB so you are ahead of me (Have you killed Nedmar?)

Edited May 17, 2015 by Omnicron

[MadDemiurg]

Combat with Maerwald does not end until he's dead so withdraw doesn't break it. Maerwald + Blights and stone beetles wiped out each other for me, only a large stone beetle remained, didn't get any kills. You don't need Calisca to get through the door if she dies permanently . And i didn't kill Nedmar, why should I?

[Omnicron]

Combat with Maerwald does not end until he's dead so withdraw doesn't break it. Maerwald + Blights and stone beetles wiped out each other for me, only a large stone beetle remained, didn't get any kills. You don't need Calisca to get through the door if she dies permanently . And i didn't kill Nedmar, why should I?

 

lol oh right you can use withdraw in Caed Nua so you do not even need the cash for the figurine (I also think I figured it was good xp for a single kill so you can advance the Lord of a Barren Land quest, even if you can get enough via Heodan and looting other areas).

 

It is weird though, I always got awarded the Maerwald kill even if I did what you mentioned. Oh well. gz so far  

 

Edit: I got through Act I with 10 kills, which included the two spiders and Nedmar and Maerwald, if you avoided all those you should be at 6, not 8?

 

I wonder if you can escape the first battle by the stream by feeding them Calista? (cant test this now because I deleted the game for now, am falling behind on work deadlines)

 

If not then the six kills in the beginning are unavoidable.

 

My final score was 23

 

   23

   -4 (needless kills on burial Isle) 

   -2 (spiders in First Cave)

   -1 (Nedmar, you do not really need him for xp or cash)

=16

 

If you could somehow get past the 1st level of Heritage Hill tower without triggering infinite combat and without kills it would lower it by another 5 making it 11.

 

(I am keeping Maerwald on the list because I always got awarded his kill, but somehow did not get Purnisc, wonder if he counts for you?)

Edited May 18, 2015 by Omnicron

[Omnicron]

Just did a re-run of Act I: Only 4 kills, as opposed to 10 last time.

 

For the two bandits in the first fight by the steam, use Calista to stall them and run away. Combat ends when she get knocked out (even though the music continues) so you can sneak past the three bandits mid-way and then take out the final 4 with Heodan. And those 4 are the only kills you need for the Act.

 

Fed Calista to the Spiders and then ran though the traps for a quicker death.

 

Did not kill Nedmar, since there is enough loot if you sell dissapointer and Guan's Pledge to Heodan

 

Then managed to kill Maerwald without being awarded the kill. All you need to do is make sure Auto-attacks are switched off and then your figurine wont accidentally hit him. It is a bit tricky since I was only level 3 without doing part of "Lord of a Barren Land" (Nedmar Kill needed) but manged just fine without Shadowing Beyond.

 

If I do the rest of my run the same and skip the kills on Burial Isle I should be able to finish with 13 kills.

 

The only Kills you need for plot progression and for which you cannot use pulled enemies al la Mearwald are: 

4 Bandits in the Encampment

1 Marshall Wenfield

1 Thaos and his 2 Statues.

 

and then the 5 undead which trigger infinite combat in Heritage Hill tower which you cannot sneak past and thus prevent you from going up even though they are not aggro...

 

I do not know if obsidian reads this, but would love to hear whether the infinite combat sequence in the 1st level of Heritage Hill Tower is intended or not? I see no reason for it and would save 5 more kills (if I am trying to do absolute minimum)

 

PS. Just thought of a valid reason to kill Nedmar, not for story, but I have no idea where else I can get Gloves of Mechanics for less kills Instead of killing Nedmar for the key you need 7 or 8 mechanics will get you though the door (I had as much without the gloves in my previous game), you can get it up to 7 and then rest for the 8th or use lockpicks and you are good to go to get the gloves (consistently getting them on Day 19, had to use lockpicks +rest with base 6 mechanics so I could go on the correct day).

 

Just found boots of stealth (any class) on day 20. Raedric Hold dungeon, trapped container by the ladder that goes up to the captain of the guards. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Omnicron

[MadDemiurg]

Looks like I'm already not at the minimum as I killed 4 more mobs than needed in the tutorial . Oh well, I'm not gonna reroll because of that. I haven't done heritage hill tower yet, so I'll post about it when I'm there.

[knownastherat]

Yeah those numbers are pretty insane Good job Omnicron

[RtrnofdMax]

I gave this my own try with a Cipher last night, and it went very poorly. Like couldn't kill the 4 guys poorly. I think, in hindsight, that I was myopic about the minimum level of offense I would need. I dumped Might and Con, and had straight 18s on the rest. Problem is, once Heodan went down (which was quickly), I had no offense. What's more, none of the guys would engage my main, they just beat on Heodan. I chose Whisper of Treason and Eyebite since they seemed appropriately non-violent. I think I will drop Per to 14 and up Might to 7 like the OP, and take a more damaging power with Whisper of Treason.

[MadDemiurg]

Dumping might is a terrible idea on a cipher, especially in 1.05 (you could pull it off with the old draining whip). There's no reason to max perception on a cipher, switch it with might. For powers you really want to start with antipathetic field and mind wave,  but then again it doesn't matter much if you go pacifist.

[Raven Darkholme]

I gave this my own try with a Cipher last night, and it went very poorly. Like couldn't kill the 4 guys poorly. I think, in hindsight, that I was myopic about the minimum level of offense I would need. I dumped Might and Con, and had straight 18s on the rest. Problem is, once Heodan went down (which was quickly), I had no offense. What's more, none of the guys would engage my main, they just beat on Heodan. I chose Whisper of Treason and Eyebite since they seemed appropriately non-violent. I think I will drop Per to 14 and up Might to 7 like the OP, and take a more damaging power with Whisper of Treason.

For that fight specifically I always sneak around the back (where the horses were) so you can place yourself next to one of the trailers, theres a chokepoint, where only one enemy at the time can aggro you. Antipathetic field is a killer if they line up ahead of you.

[Omnicron]

I gave this my own try with a Cipher last night, and it went very poorly. Like couldn't kill the 4 guys poorly. I think, in hindsight, that I was myopic about the minimum level of offense I would need. I dumped Might and Con, and had straight 18s on the rest. Problem is, once Heodan went down (which was quickly), I had no offense. What's more, none of the guys would engage my main, they just beat on Heodan. I chose Whisper of Treason and Eyebite since they seemed appropriately non-violent. I think I will drop Per to 14 and up Might to 7 like the OP, and take a more damaging power with Whisper of Treason.

 There is no reason to drop might. A Pacifist character needs to be able to do two things:

1. Take talent, skills (Stealth & Mechanics) and attributes (Resolve & Int) which will help avoid or exit combat,

2. Take talents, skills (Lore) and attributes (Might) which will help you kill Thaos.

 

If you dump Con and Might, you might have a hard time vs Thaos. Also I am not sure how much combat you want to avoid, but I do not think Cipher has too many abilities for exiting combat, which is why Priest and Rogue are favored for a minimum run, and also why you will need attributes and talents for combat even more. There is a lot you can sneak past, like really maybe 80% of stuff, but sometimes I need Shadowing Beyond in order to get out alive without creatures following me to the exit and killing me (Sanitarium, Skaen Cultist Lair, Lighthouse, and Ciliban Ring are good examples where you cannot rely on stealth). In those cases you will have to fight them or charm them for long enough to send them away (High Int needed if this is even viable) 

 

You will see that I rerolled the character in my OP. I dumped Perception, it does not help you at all in avoiding combat. Most conversation checks are Resolve and there are a few things High Int can give you, but I take it for SB duration mostly. The rest went to might and Dex

 

Broadly Speaking for a pacifist run you need:

 

Might: 14 (but can be more)

Con: 10 is ok (but can be more, or if you feel like a pro less )

Dex: Around 16

Int: 13-16 (highest Int check is 19, so +2 Int Item and Brackenbury +4 Int rest will get you there from 13, but Int is super good for duration of abilities you are using to exit combat like Shadowing Beyond or Withdraw so would go High)

Per: 3

Resolve: At least 18 (I guess 16 will do with resting bonus and Item to get to 20 for some checks)

 

So play within those margins if you want a good run

Edited May 20, 2015 by Omnicron

[Raven Darkholme]

Cipher can exit combat via charming.

[MadDemiurg]

Yep, but it's dangerous because charmed/confused mobs can get killed and I think they're added to your kill count in this case.