hugin7 Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Does this talent actually increase the crit damage multiplier by 0.3 for anyone? I tested ranged weapons and spells with x1.5 crit damage and found that the talent seems to have no impact on the damage range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exoduss Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Not the first talent that doesnt work in this game , KICKSTARTER FOR THE WIN . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemonjax Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 It's hard to test damage in this game. Would be nice if the actual calculation was shown on mouse-over. We'd need to mod a weapon to have the min equal the max damage to properly test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugin7 Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 It's hard to test damage in this game. Would be nice if the actual calculation was shown on mouse-over. We'd need to mod a weapon to have the min equal the max damage to properly test. It's not that difficult - for example, if a weapon does 13-20 points of damage and has the default x1.5 crit damage, max crits go to 30 points (subtract DR of test target). Simply attack with a fast weapon while affected by accuracy buffs to see many crits. Optionally, debuff enemies' resistance for even more crits. For the scenario above, my crits would never go beyond 30 points with or without The Merciless Hand. If the talent actually worked, there would be numbers as high as 1.8 * 20 = 36 and plenty of crits in the (30, 36] range. I've tested many data points with ranged weapons and spells. One caveat - I did add/remove talent via cheat console. It would be helpful if someone who acquired it legitimately confirms my findings before we declare this a bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkathellar Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 (edited) It's hard to test damage in this game. Would be nice if the actual calculation was shown on mouse-over. We'd need to mod a weapon to have the min equal the max damage to properly test. There was a thread earlier on this board where someone was testing by doing exactly that. If you're really curious, look it up, see if you can get in touch with the guy. Edited April 25, 2015 by gkathellar If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time. Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peddroelm Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 (edited) https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/ https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/ seems to only add 0.25 to crit damage not 0.3 (unless the barb I tested against has some crit damage reduction skill/item I didn't noticed) 20 base damage quarterstaff .. 27% might bonus 20 * (1 + 0.27 - 0.5) = 15.4 // graze fits with combat log 20 * (1 + 0.27 + 0.5 + X ) = 40.4 // this was the crit But it resolves for X = 0.25 not 0.3 .. Should've tested with 2 more chars to make sure .. Was to tired, will test again probably tomorrow .. Edited April 25, 2015 by peddroelm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugin7 Posted April 26, 2015 Author Share Posted April 26, 2015 https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/ https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/ seems to only add 0.25 to crit damage not 0.3 (unless the barb I tested against has some crit damage reduction skill/item I didn't noticed) 20 base damage quarterstaff .. 27% might bonus 20 * (1 + 0.27 - 0.5) = 15.4 // graze fits with combat log 20 * (1 + 0.27 + 0.5 + X ) = 40.4 // this was the crit But it resolves for X = 0.25 not 0.3 .. Should've tested with 2 more chars to make sure .. Was to tired, will test again probably tomorrow .. Have you tested only with melee weapons? My tests were with ranged weapons and spells, so it's possible that the talent affects melee weapons only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peddroelm Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 (edited) Have you tested only with melee weapons? My tests were with ranged weapons and spells, so it's possible that the talent affects melee weapons only. only a quick test with quarterstaff .. will test with ranged weapons also .. Some crit modifier tests Used char with 39% might bonus.. 20 base damage Resolution Sabre (annihilation extra 50% on crit) & Crossbow. 15% fine enchantment (sabre). 20% reckless attack (melee only) . Rabit foot 10% on crits. resolution sabre 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 66.8 // sneak crit perfect crossbow 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 49.8 // sneak crit add merciless hand resolution sabre 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 71.8 // sneak crit crossbow 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 54.8 /sneak crit NOT broken , just a bit dishonest (25% instead of the 30% listed in description) Edited April 26, 2015 by peddroelm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugin7 Posted April 26, 2015 Author Share Posted April 26, 2015 Have you tested only with melee weapons? My tests were with ranged weapons and spells, so it's possible that the talent affects melee weapons only. only a quick test with quarterstaff .. will test with ranged weapons also .. Some crit modifier tests Used char with 39% might bonus.. 20 base damage Resolution Sabre (annihilation extra 50% on crit) & Crossbow. 15% fine enchantment (sabre). 20% reckless attack (melee only) . Rabit foot 10% on crits. resolution sabre 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 66.8 // sneak crit perfect crossbow 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 )) = 49.8 // sneak crit add merciless hand resolution sabre 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 71.8 // sneak crit crossbow 20 * ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 54.8 /sneak crit NOT broken , just a bit dishonest (25% instead of the 30% listed in description) Are you using the cheat console to add the talent, and if so, which one? I tried the following: the_merciless_hand tln_the_merciless_hand_talent The only other difference in our test setup that I can see right away is that I used a war bow as my ranged weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peddroelm Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 tln_the_merciless_hand_talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugin7 Posted April 26, 2015 Author Share Posted April 26, 2015 After finally landing a crit outside of the "normal" range, I went back to the drawing board and the issue became obvious... I apparently spaced out last night and expected the crit multiplier to be an actual, umm, multiplier, on the normal range: damage = (1 + might and other damage bonuses) * (1 + crit multiplier + crit multiplier bonuses). Having reviewed the game mechanics, I recalled that crit bonuses were implemented as stated above - they are additive with all other damage bonuses. The implication is that crit multipiers are not particularly effective in PoE. In the above example for the crossbow, the initial damage multiplier is ( 1 + 0.39 + 0.5 + ( 0.5 + 0.1 + 0.25 )) = 2.49. A 0.25 crit multiplier bonus brings this to 2.74. 2.74/2.49 = 10% effective damage increase for crits. If your crit percentage, is, say, ~20%, then your overall effective damage increase is ~2%. On weapons of base damage = 20, a 10% difference is only 2 points, which implies that a large sample size is needed to verify whether the talent has any effect. Due to the flawed multiplicative formula that I used, I expected more variation and apparently pulled the plug on my initial tests too quickly. My apologies for the confusion. In conclusion, The Merciless Hand talent is not broken, but offers a only a minor damage increase under most circumstances to a single character. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkathellar Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 hugin7 and peddroelm, you are gentlemen and scholars both. Thank you for the research. If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time. Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peddroelm Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 finally gotten around to test it for spells .. It works for spells too http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/page-4?do=findComment&comment=1691677 (tested some low level direct damage wizard spells) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veynn Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Someone should make a PoE damage calculator app. I would pay for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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