Torment's reach mechanics ..

[peddroelm]

Full attack (meaning triggered twice/wound when dual wielding)

 

Adds 50% crush lash damage (multiplicative) (vs 25% target crush defense) to the weapon hit (melee range).. 

 

AND

 

Extra hits to targets in cone AOE.. ( "spell accuracy" toHIT  VS TARGET REFLEX NOT DEFLECTION ).. 

Those extra hits use (according to game files and some ingame checks) 15-25 base damage for calculation [Not the equipped weapon/fist] as crush damage vs target 100% crush DR (potential pitfall) .. 

(let me remind you here regular 2h weapons have 14-20 base damage).. Damage mods apply as usual (check it with 100 Might - did ~86 damage 1 hit ) .. They do NOT apply turning wheel, lightning strikes lash damage ..

 

TLDR - How do milk most damage out of this ability.. Fastest attack possible and dual wield (2 torment's/wound) - think dual fist, Max DEX with dual weapon spec, swift strikes, no armor ( frame dudes might have something to say about possible breakpoints) ..Stack damage mods (might, savage attack, ..etc)

What you get is fastest attack speed in the game hitting with base damage higher than 2h weapons base damage.. Assuming you can stay alive while receiving wounds and positioning enemies in kill cone ..  

 

Small feature/exploit/bug (DEV Has spoketh) - pointed out in thread - all classes can use dual fist in combat even if all their weapon slots are occupied with weapons .. Monks - main/only benefiters of this of course .. (Ex tank with weapon shield, switch to double fist to unload torments ..)

Edited April 23, 2015 by peddroelm

[MoxyWoo]

Attack animation if I recall from the other thread is the same for average or fast weapons.  Recovery varies, but wouldn't matter with Torment optimization.

 

The higher base damage from Sabres would then be the best damage.  As you gain +50% crush lash damage from Torments, having a higher base is better.  This is all assuming that these sabres are enchanted fully.

 

From a practical viewpoint, Moon God-like for the heals and less baby sitting.  Also the INT does double duty with the aura heals then for the party.

 

Torments and Rooting pain are Area of effect attacks afaik.  Hence why might modifier will work for the cone/area, but modals/talents like vulnerable attack, etc, won't.

[peddroelm]

..The higher base damage from Sabres would then be the best damage.  As you gain +50% crush lash damage from Torments, having a higher base is better.  This is all assuming that these sabres are enchanted fully...

 

 

 

Torment's reach AOE hits don't use the equipped weapon for damage calculation .. They use their own weapon 15-25 which is better than even 2h weapons..  So yeah they will do more damage if dual wielding 2 base, white enchanted daggers than if using 2 top of the line , but slower striking sabres .. I wasn't asking - I was saying ..   Reading comprehension ..

[MoxyWoo]

I never mentioned the AoE damage in my post for sabres applying.  It was merely for the initial full attack, having a higher base dmg for a dual wield makes it good.

 

We are saying the same thing.

 

Edit to add:  I guess optimizing the cone damage would just be about stacking might then.  So, technically, a dwarf or aumua would do the trick.  That said a 6% increase doesn't seem as handy to me as a tank that needs less baby sitting.

 

Additionally, turning wheel would be good for the initial full attack then.

Edited April 21, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[Climhazzard]

Damage mods increase its damage, intelligence extends its reach, improving the rate you receive wounds by tactics or the amount of armor you wear will allow you to use it more, using higher base damage weapons will increase its single target damage (dual sabers).  Does your weapon speed even affect the animation speed of torments reach?  I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but I bet dexterity does.

 

So ideally, it's something like..

 

18 might

18 intelligence

lesser wounds and light armor

dual sabers (for higher damage on the initial hit not the AOE)

dexterity as high as you can get it

 

You'd be pretty squishy though if you pumped might, dex, and intelligence.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Climhazzard

[MadDemiurg]

Monk seems to keep its MAD problems from D&D seeing how you also want constitution as it's effectively your "mana pool"

[peddroelm]

  Does your weapon speed even affect the animation speed of torments reach?  I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but I bet dexterity does.

 

My "feel" is that dual fist will "unload" 10 torments reach worth of wounds faster than using a 2 handed weapons , so - that would mean weapon attack speed matters and that  fist would be "slightly" faster at unloading torments than dual sabres .. But ATM is just a subjective feel .. Might try some frame analysis test at some point ..

Edited April 22, 2015 by peddroelm

[Climhazzard]

Well, I've noticed on my dual sabers monk that the recovery time after using torments reach is a lot shorter than the recovery time after using a dual sabers attack, I haven't done any testing either but I felt that it must be unaffected by the slower weapons.

 

It's rather hard to test because you have to generate 10 wounds then find a target that won't die before you use them up.  Even if it is a bit affected by attack speed, it's still limited by the amount of wounds you have, and attack speed wouldn't matter unless you have excessive amounts of wounds.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Climhazzard

[peddroelm]

I think setting Monk Endurance to set value during test and might just add the number of wounds required for test (via console or memory editor) .. Then you'll probably need the order queue to hold 10 actions (doubt its this long   // or give already activated error) and shiftqueue all ten attacks during pause vs friendly that won't retaliate and interrupt your monk.. Record and un-pause .. Triggering them by hand during realtime might lead to human error.. Eventually to the test with no 2 handed weapon mastery, no swift strikes 3 DEX char on slow speed to have the time to manually activate the attacks.. This would only (possibly) show that weapon attack speed is a factor - not precisely how big of a factor on the character build for maximum speed (very likely small enough for the sabres other advantages (unique enchantments//lash damage vs melee target)  to trump it) ..

Edited April 22, 2015 by peddroelm

[Zwiebelchen]

These are great discoveries that actually apply to all monks, not only DPS monks.

 

As the game allows you to always use your dual-wield fists as a hidden extra weapon slot, this actually creates a dynamic in which you can purposely drop your defense on a tank-build monk in order to deal dual-wield torment damage when tanking.

 

I'm using this for almost all encounters where I don't need all my extra deflection from 1H+shield (which is basicly every fight after reaching level 6). Just swap weapons to fists and welcome to DPS-city. I even took the faster weapon swapping talent for this and mind you that the dual-wield talent applies to fists aswell.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[dudex]

this is pretty interesting. I did some initial testing to see what works and what doest with torement reach.

 

early game i think the best way to get the most out of torment's reach is to use offhand weapon with + 5 accuracy (empty main slot)

 

the +12 one hand bonus accuracy applies to both hits of the full attack (fist damage + 12 accuracy at the start of game = awesome)

the +5 accuracy applies to all the aoe damage and one of the attacks from the full attack

if you use a dagger u can still have relatively fast attacks relativel to dual wielding and can almost spend wounds as quickly as you get em

 

i tried weapons like maces/stilletoes with dr reduction properties but it doesnt apply to aoe damage nor the second hit from the full attacks.

[Manty5]

Let me see if I understand this correctly:

Torment's reach has 2 "weapons":

The first weapon hits your primary target, and is a full attack +50% crush lash, plus whatever weapon effects you have on both of your weapons.

The second weapon is like a weapon whose damage is wholly independant from the ones you are wielding, The additive damage from strength is confirmed to work with it but the DR from vulnerable attack is confirmed NOT to work with it.

 

So, the questions that I have about the AOE weapon are:

1. What affects the recovery speed of the Torment's reach ability?

  a. Dexterity?

  b. Armor Malus?

  c. Swift strikes?

  d. two-weapon talent?

  e. vulnerable attack (as a penalty)?

  f. Weapon speed?  (would dual stiletto let you dump wounds into Torment rather quickly?)

2. Since strength affects the damage of the AOE weapon, wouldn't other additive damage-increasing abilities like Savage Strike do so as well?

 

It seems to me that if you didn't care about the damage to the primary target, you could drop an enemy on its butt with a FoA (assuming you aimed the push to not actually move him)  then activate SS, dual-wield fast vampiric weapons and spam all your remaining Torment while sucking up HP from the proned victim.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Manty5

[Manty5]

Do folks seriously not know the specifics I asked above?  Or is the answer so obvious that the people who do know feel I don't merit a reply?

[peddroelm]

I did not "test" the things you're asking for .. I might do so at some point, until then no answer is IMO a better policy than speculation ..  I'm trying to finish the game at least once ..

[Manty5]

Oh...  Some of the testing detail on these forums is so precise that I didn't seriously consider the possibility that this wasn't already known information, and please accept my apologies if I sounded petulant or ungrateful.

 

It's just that I'm not confident enough in my ability to lock my FPS and count frames (I've never even used FRAPS) in order to do a good test.  The only thing I'd be able to do is make a party of monks with various setups and let them fight side by side and hope the difference is obvious enough to tell from just that.  Maybe it would be.  The difference between 3 dex and 20 is pretty large, and so is the difference between plate mail and nakedness.  Also I think that swift strikes and two-handed fighting would either both affect it, or neither will so I could stack both on one character and compare it with one without this.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Manty5

[peddroelm]

Personally I don't use frame counting to "measure" attack speeds, I use debugger breakpoints to measure the time between damage is inflicted on test target   https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1673223   ..  Not perfectly a perfectly accurate method for measuring attack speeds, but good enough .. But it does take some time to setup and execute .. 

[Manty5]

Okay, using my FAR less scientific method (roll a bunch of monks with stats setup to give stark differences, attack 1-2 Paths level 4 ogres with a hobbling bow rogue, then while the ogres approach give themselves wounds, then unleash simultaneous TR's (watching for enemy interrupts of course)... here's what I discovered:

 

1. Dexterity test, 2 dex dorf versus 20 dex elf:  Plainly noticeable difference:  The elf was able to belt out the TR's far faster than the dorf.

2. Armor Malus test, -5 robes versus -50 plate:  Plainly noticeable difference.

3. Random note:  For the above 2 tests, the ability to give yourself wounds was also affected by the speed bonuses/malus.

4. Weapon ability test:  One char with both swift strikes and 2-weapon style, the other without.  Plainly noticeable difference.

5. Weapon's inherent speed test:  Fast versus medium:  Undetectable difference.  Just for kicks, I ran a quarterstaff against dual stiletto:  The TR cooldown difference was ALSO unnoticable.  Interesting.

6. Weapon Focus effect on TR's AOE accuracy confirmed.  I never really had a doubt about that, but checking just the same...

 

Interesting question:  Since weapon speed appears to not affect TR, I wonder if a build that uses high int/might, 2h weapon focus and savage attack might cause a great deal of AOE damage in exchange for less wound spending speed penalty than you'd otherwise think.

EDIT:  Tried a 2h/savage attack barb and checking the AOE damage.  Either I'm reading the combat log wrong or it isn't giving enough detail for me to tell if the 1.2 damage effect is applying.  Maybe I'd need to mod the ability's weapon to a constant value to tell.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Manty5

[dudex]

4. Weapon ability test:  One char with both swift strikes and 2-weapon style, the other without.  Plainly noticeable difference.

5. Weapon's inherent speed test:  Fast versus medium:  Undetectable difference.  Just for kicks, I ran a quarterstaff against dual stiletto:  The TR cooldown difference was ALSO unnoticable.  Interesting.

 

these points kinda contradict each other..

 

dual wield stilleto with 2 weapon style +  swift strikes > Quarterstaff with swift strikes or is it equal?

 

but from playing monks i noticed that torment's reach seem to be its own unique weapon with its own attack animation + recovery frames regardless of weapon choice/style.

[peddroelm]

Cannot edit OP but - savage attack modal will do nothing for Torments reach AOE damage (which is spell effect) since it only applies to melee damage .

 

2H weapons are a bad idea since Torments Reach provides [two attacks/per wound] when dual wielding . Even if its recovery time is fixed getting double the amount of torments per wound cannot be beat .. 

Edited May 11, 2015 by peddroelm

[Manty5]

 

4. Weapon ability test:  One char with both swift strikes and 2-weapon style, the other without.  Plainly noticeable difference.

5. Weapon's inherent speed test:  Fast versus medium:  Undetectable difference.  Just for kicks, I ran a quarterstaff against dual stiletto:  The TR cooldown difference was ALSO unnoticable.  Interesting.

 

these points kinda contradict each other..

 

dual wield stilleto with 2 weapon style +  swift strikes > Quarterstaff with swift strikes or is it equal?

 

but from playing monks i noticed that torment's reach seem to be its own unique weapon with its own attack animation + recovery frames regardless of weapon choice/style.

 

They don't contradict each other, and probably for the very reason that you cite.  Swift Strikes and 2-weapon style both increase all weapon speed, provided you satisfy the conditions for them to activate (for SS, you spend a wound.  For DW, you hold 2 weapons).  Since they affect all weapons, they also affect the Torment's reach weapon.  But the fact that stiletto has a fast cooldown doesn't force the torment's reach weapon to have a fast cooldown.  I think I'm explaining that right, but not sure.

 

The inherent weapon test was a separate test using separate characters from the SS+DW versus no SS+DW test, so at no point did I test SS+DW with a quarterstaff.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Manty5

[taek]

TR won't be affected by weapon speed because weapon speed is just how many frames of weapon animation: swing, overhand, stab, etc..

 

TR has its own animation, which is the spin kick.

 

This is why TR is affected by speed modifiers, but it doesn't play the quick stilleto animation or the slow greatsword animation, it plays its own anim.

 

Since it's more of an effect and not an attack, the only way I've found to increase TR damage is to equip a battle axe (+50% crit damage). The TR seems to inherit that property although I'm not entirely sure...something else might have been going on that I wasn't accounting for.

 

 

These are battle axe TR crits, for 50-52 damage. I don't get TR damage that high with other weapons or fists equipped.

Character is level 4, naked except for battle axe.

Edited May 12, 2015 by taek

[Zwiebelchen]

So, dual wielding slow 1H weapons should yield the largest TR DPS in theory.

However, with progressing character level, dual wield fists practically reach a point at which their damage is comparable to slow 1H weapons anyway.

 

Considering the above and the fact that you can't spam torment's reach endlessly, I think it's overall better to stick with dual-fists.

[peddroelm]

Since it's more of an effect and not an attack, the only way I've found to increase TR damage is to equip a battle axe (+50% crit damage). The TR seems to inherit that property although I'm not entirely sure...something else might have been going on that I wasn't accounting for.

 

 

These are battle axe TR crits, for 50-52 damage. I don't get TR damage that high with other weapons or fists equipped.

Character is level 4, naked except for battle axe.

15-25 base damage there is a lot of room for variation in crit damage .. I intend to test this properly today (will need to find the AOE's weapon base damage variable address, remove the RNG damage roll and see what is really happening)..

 

15 * (1 + 0.3 + 0.5) = 27

25 * (1 + 0.3 + 0.5) = 45

 

Your damage numbers do seem a bit high - if the axe crit bonus transfers to torment's reach AOE  it would be 100% due to a bug. Some spell effects still use the hit quality modifiers as true multipliers for damage calculation purposes (another possibility)..

25 * (1 + 0.39 ) * 1.5 = 52.125.. I'll know more after I test it ..

Edited May 12, 2015 by peddroelm

[taek]

Great, tell me what you find out.

Perhaps it's just RNG, I didn't know TR's damage range was so wide, most weapons have a tighter range.

Edited May 12, 2015 by taek

[peddroelm]

25-25 torement's reach "weapon"

30% might

dual wield unique battle axes Edge of Reason & We Toki

 

25 * (1 + 0.3 - 0.5) == 20 // graze savage attack as predicted - not working for "magic weapons"

25 * (1 + 0.3 + 0.5 + 0.5) == 57.5 // crit  The Bonus damage on crits for Battle Axes transfers to TR crits 

25 * (1 + 0.3) == 32.5 // hit  

 

Accuracy from Transcendent Suffering doesn't apply to Torment's reach AOE chance to hit - but the accuracy enchantment from (superb/excellent) weapons did .

 

73 accuracy TR AOE with fist  // level 10 monk +12 accuracy to fist did not transfer to TR AOE

85 accuracy TR AOE with Blade of Endless Paths (superb weapon) 73 + 12

87 accuracy TR AOE with We Toki ( knight weapon focus + excellent weapon ) 73 + 6 + 8

91 accuracy TR AOE with Edge of Reason ( knight weapon focus + superb weapon ) 73 + 6 + 12

94 accuracy TR AOE with We Toki ( knight weapon focus + excellent weapon + fighting spirit ) 73 + 6 + 8 + 7

98 accuracy TR AOE with Edge of Reason ( knight weapon focus + superb weapon + fighting spirit ) 73 + 6 + 12 + 7

 

 

25 * (1 + 0.3 + 0.5) == 45.0 // crit with fist weapon 

 

// console in merciless hand talent (+25% damage on crits) .. Might bonus changed to 33% (some debuff expired)

25 * (1 + 0.33 + (0.5 + 0.5 + 0.25)) == 64.5 // crit - merciless hand worked  for TR AOE crit

 

 

TL-DR Torment's reach AOE component uses a 15-25 base "magic" weapon that inherits accuracy enhancements from equipped weapon (but NOT from transcendent suffering when using fists) .

Fighting spirit +7 accuracy did apply, the 15% damage did not (presumably applies to proper weapons only) ..The bonus crit damage from battle axes and merciless hand talent applied to TR AOE component (all sources of crit damage very likely to work)

 

TODO

Will battle axe crit bonus (crit damage bonuses in general) apply to EVERYTHING ?

Will the annihilation mod on other unique weapons work the same ?

Will rabit fur glove apply to TR crits ? 

Edited May 15, 2015 by peddroelm