Are Paladins really not that bad?

[Schyzm]

 

 

So anyone else surprised recent patch notes show absolutely zero improvements for Paladins and instead tons for Wizards?

 

Marked Prey and Sworn Enemy have been set to 0 recovery actions, so they can be used and the Ranger/Paladin can immediately act again.

 

 

A slight buff, nothing major, I dont think they will ever buff Paladins.

 

 

That's crazy to me. It's hands down the most in-demand class for seeing improvements. Wizard was a popular one too but I think it carried more of a tone of "Wizard is amazing when you fully utilize it but it often feels lackluster for the average fight" and had a tone of "why not bring a Cipher" (which falls flat in practice) similar to Ranger vs. Rogue, but the class itself was still solid.

 

Don't get me wrong, improvements for Wizards sounds cool, it's just kinda weird to see so much focus on them and next to nothing for Ranger and Paladin. Ranger just needs some simple pet improvements and they're good to go, Paladin needs a world of help.

 

 

I will say this, at the bleeding edge of optimization paladins are the best tanks. once your defenses get truly absurd you really do have no equal.

[Raven Darkholme]

Killed the fampyr lord in Od Nua without even using any consumables other than beefloaf. Fireball spam by the enemies actually helps the high reflex pala. :d

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

 

So anyone else surprised recent patch notes show absolutely zero improvements for Paladins and instead tons for Wizards?

 

Marked Prey and Sworn Enemy have been set to 0 recovery actions, so they can be used and the Ranger/Paladin can immediately act again.

 

 

A slight buff, nothing major, I dont think they will ever buff Paladins.

 

 

That's crazy to me. It's hands down the most in-demand class for seeing improvements. Wizard was a popular one too but I think it carried more of a tone of "Wizard is amazing when you fully utilize it but it often feels lackluster for the average fight" and had a tone of "why not bring a Cipher" (which falls flat in practice) similar to Ranger vs. Rogue, but the class itself was still solid.

 

Don't get me wrong, improvements for Wizards sounds cool, it's just kinda weird to see so much focus on them and next to nothing for Ranger and Paladin. Ranger just needs some simple pet improvements and they're good to go, Paladin needs a world of help.

 

 

I will say this, at the bleeding edge of optimization paladins are the best tanks. once your defenses get truly absurd you really do have no equal.

 

No. It's wizard in 1.05 .

[Crescent Hawk]

The Light does not shine on PoE paladins. I believe what people say that builds are either too much focused on dps or tanking, a middle ground for all classes would make the combat much more fluid.

[Raven Darkholme]

So my second maingoal with my solo Potd paladin just failed miserably.

On the first page of this thread somebody posted a fight vs the sky dragon and got flamed because he used summons and consumables. While my main goal was always soloing Adra without petrify or paralyze, the second one was to not use figurines or consumables on sky. Turned out that by maxing Ref def and kinda ignoring will and fort I made a big mistake since sky dragon has a stun attack that directly targets fort, while I'm stunned I get hit in melee and go prone. Only way around it is to use the anti stun/prone shield and using maelstrom scrolls, which I can use since I have Lore 10 for Adra but it defeats my goal.

I'm thinking about rerolling once again, but not sure since I wanted to play 1.05 wiz. :s

Edited May 3, 2015 by Raven Darkholme

[MadDemiurg]

You can just respec with IEMod to prove the point. Fighter vid was made with a test character directly teleported to the sky dragon I think.

Edited May 3, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Raven Darkholme]

Oh I didn't realise the guy didn't even work for his achievement.

Well in that case I will definitely respec since I already put 40 hours into that save clearing everything in the game except Od Nua levels 11-15 and the bounties.

[Raven Darkholme]

So I just killed the dragon with dex reduced to 9 and might raised to 18 using no potions and figurines. Vid follows later.

[Raven Darkholme]

So here we go, pala vs sky, no potions, figurines OR scrolls. Note, that this fight would be superfast with maelstrom scrolls + warpaint.

 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/i9-dwtE6zYo

Edited May 4, 2015 by Raven Darkholme

[MadDemiurg]

No consumables is not exactly true as you have food bonuses on you. But I think pala is one of the classes that actually have the best shot at doing it with no consumables (even though I think it's kinda pointless and if you solo you're gonna use a lot of consumables anyway with any class) because of righteous soul cutting that nasty -20 accuracy aura duration. Most other classes would really want to use protection against fear/recovery potion even if it's possible for them to manage without it.

Edited May 4, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Raven Darkholme]

Yeah but the fighter guy only said “without potions“ I never actually saw his vid, did it get removed?

Aura cut to basically no duration is a really awesome feature of pala in dragon fights, very true.

And yeah if I further would have changed my Attributes, no IN max CO consumables woud not have been needed.

[MadDemiurg]

Think he didn't use any food either (although I don't remember it too well). He did get killed and then revived via unbroken though, so I guess a second chance item would be ok . I think the vid got removed, yes.

Edited May 4, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Crescent Hawk]

That little aura regen Chanters get would have made more sense on Paladin, but maybe that would have made them too powerful as tanks.

[Vorad]

I switched my support/offtank to defensive chanter from paladin and never looked back, my main tank is full defensive fighter the res 2x wizards nuke/cc, priest skaen support/dps and druid nuke/cc.

 

Deffensive chanter can reach high survivability as well while at the same time chants + invocations bring to the table way more stuff than paladin's abilities.

 

 

[Crescent Hawk]

I just feebly state it. I just wanted to smite evil with a carsomyr analogue or sunlight spears ;_;

[Crucis]

That little aura regen Chanters get would have made more sense on Paladin, but maybe that would have made them too powerful as tanks.

 

Perhaps, but Fighters get a constant self-regen that makes that pretty beastly when they're not taking many hard hits and have time to let that slow regen take hold.

 

[Raven Darkholme]

Tomorrow the adra dragon will fall.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

The regen is also based off of might. More might more regen. And there is another talent that boosts it more. Plus a unique Fighter Cape that boosts regen further. So if you have 1 fighter their regeneration is going to be pretty damn high.  And if you wanted to go crazy you could the normal regen items to the fighter.

 

Still don't see the point of a Paladin except for role play reasons. A fighter can defend basically just as good and still do way more damage. Doesn't need management and can regen so basically never falls. And also gets second life talent.

 

The Paladin as a support role would work if it wasn't for the Priest and Chanter doing a much much better job at supporting. Not making the Paladin with accerss to some spells or the vanquisher of the undead (could have been vessels in PoE) is a huge negative to the class.

 

Maybe if their base auroras were bumped up 1-2m they be better. And that is the probably with percentage based increases. It is hard to boost a small base 2.5m. It make more sense if every point of Int gave a certain distance, every point of Con gave a certain HP increase. That is why know one bumps up Con on many many builds.

 

If you aren't bumping someone who has a natural high HP/Endurance then the % increase does nothing and is just a waste.

 

And the Paladin suffers from this. You would think boosting him to 18 Int would be awesome. But it is barely different then leaving Int at 10.

[Crucis]

The regen is also based off of might. More might more regen. And there is another talent that boosts it more. Plus a unique Fighter Cape that boosts regen further. So if you have 1 fighter their regeneration is going to be pretty damn high.  And if you wanted to go crazy you could the normal regen items to the fighter.

 

Still don't see the point of a Paladin except for role play reasons. A fighter can defend basically just as good and still do way more damage. Doesn't need management and can regen so basically never falls. And also gets second life talent.

 

The Paladin as a support role would work if it wasn't for the Priest and Chanter doing a much much better job at supporting. Not making the Paladin with accerss to some spells or the vanquisher of the undead (could have been vessels in PoE) is a huge negative to the class.

 

Maybe if their base auroras were bumped up 1-2m they be better. And that is the probably with percentage based increases. It is hard to boost a small base 2.5m. It make more sense if every point of Int gave a certain distance, every point of Con gave a certain HP increase. That is why know one bumps up Con on many many builds.

 

If you aren't bumping someone who has a natural high HP/Endurance then the % increase does nothing and is just a waste.

 

And the Paladin suffers from this. You would think boosting him to 18 Int would be awesome. But it is barely different then leaving Int at 10.

 

I agree.  The paladin auras are so darned small that the AoE INT bonuses just can't boost their size significantly.

 

Frankly, I find this "paladin as warlord" design philosophy thing to be rather lame.  I'd rather that paladins were more like Holy Warriors (though the "holy" part might be a little obsolete, since currently paladins aren't tied to deities) where their abilities were focused on enhancement of their own combat abilities.

 

It might also be nice if some of their abilities were aimed at combating the undead (i.e. spirits and vessels), though I suppose that even now, one could have a paladin take the spirit and vessel slaying talents.  That said, I could see this as being the type of paladin ability that would be more favored by some orders over others. 

 

Come to think of it, I seem to remember some dev comments that mentioned that pally abilities were generally split into those that helped those around him and those that helped the pally himself.  I wonder how much more potent a pally would be if he took only the personal enhancing abilities rather than the ally assisting aura abilities?

 

 

[Crucis]

As an addendum to my previous post regarding the idea that one might build a Paladin around a theme of taking only those talents and abilities that enhance the paladin's personal abilities in combat, rather than helping allies....

 

Looking over the various abilities and talents, it appears very possible to do.  Well, of course, it's "possible" to do.  Whether it would result in a significant improvement in a paladin's combat abilities is open to debate and testing.

 

This is what I've got so far. (Please note that I'm doing this based on info on the gameopedia wiki, and it's possible that there are inaccuracies.)

 

 

 

Class Abilities

 

L1:  Faith and Conviction

L1:  Flames of Devotion

L3: Zealous Focus (accuracy bonus) or Zealous Endurance (DR bonus):  No option at L3 of a strictly personal ability.  But either of these does affect the paladin himself, so it's not an outright theme breaker.

L5: Sworn Enemy

L7: Thematically, Deprive the Unworthy.  But Reviving Exhortation is extremely useful outside the theme.

L9: Righteous Soul

L11: Appears to be only a single option: Hastening Exhortation

 

 

There are 6 Talents to be picked on the even numbered levels (1 each, of course).

 

 

Possible Class-related Talents

Intense Flames: increases Flames of Devotion damage

Deep Faith: Enhances Faith and Conviction bonuses

Untroubled Faith: Negates the penalties for disfavored dispositions to Faith and Conviction (does this still exist for paladins?)



For Goldpact Knights:
Enduring Flames: Enhances Flames of Devotion with a Burn DoT

For Bleak Walkers:
The Black Path: When pally kills an enemy, nearby enemies are Frightened
Remember Rakhan Field: adds corrode damage to Flames of Devotion

For Darcozzi Paladini:
Fires of Darcozzi Palace: Adds a weak Fire Shield to Flames of Devotion

NOTE: There are no class talents that are thematically proper for the Kind Wayfarers and Shieldbearers of St. Elcga.  They all help allies rather than the paladin.
 

 

Possible General Talents

 

Pick a Weapon Focus:  Suggest that Soldier or Knight may be the most appropriate for a paladin.

 

If one thinks that Paladins should care about combating the undead, one or both of these may be an option.
Ghost Hunter: +25% damage vs spirits
Sanctifier: +25% damage vs vessels

Arms Bearer: +1 weapon set (I include this one, because I place a high value on having a 3rd weapon set.  Others may see this differently, so it's personal preference.)

One-Handed Style
Two-Handed Style
Two-Weapon Style
Weapon and Shield Style

 

For a paladin, my personal preference would be for either two-handed weapon style or weapon and shield style.


Hold the Line: +1 enemies engaged.

 

Envenomed Weapon might be a decent pick, particularly for the less goody-goody leaning orders.  Bleakwalkers, in particular,  might really like Envenomed Weapon.

 

 

There are no doubt some other general talents that could be good fits thematically speaking.

 

 

As for stats, given the theme of a paladin whose abilities and talents are focused on enhancing his personal combat ability, I don't think that INT would be particularly necessary for the sake of aura size enhancements.  As for the other stats, I'll leave it to you to decide how best to choose them, though it would seem that for a front line combatant, you'd be looking at some mix of Might (for damage) and Perception and Resolve (for deflection).

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly though, looking back at the abilities and talents that are left to work with for this theme, it doesn't appear that such a paladin would be much of a powerhouse.  Maybe decent, but nothing special, except for the possibility of just enjoying the challenge of roleplaying this sort of build in spite of its less than stellar combat power.

 

 

 

 

[mazeltov]

Honestly though, looking back at the abilities and talents that are left to work with for this theme, it doesn't appear that such a paladin would be much of a powerhouse.  Maybe decent, but nothing special, except for the possibility of just enjoying the challenge of roleplaying this sort of build in spite of its less than stellar combat power.

 

An interesting thought experiment at least, and it is playing against type. The way I would do it:

 

Goldpact Dwarf/Mowmow

 

M  21  D  18  C  10  P  10  I  7  R  12

 

1  FoD

2  Weapon Focus: Estoc

3  LoH (large self heal w/ 21 Mig)

4  2H Style

5  Sworn Enemy

6  Intense Flames

7  ZFocus

8  Enduring Flames

9  Liberating Exhort (self cleanse)

10  Greater LoH

11  Inspiring Triumph (he inspires himself after every kill for +7 Defenses)

12  Critical Focus

 

 

So active abilities would be:

 

FoD +75% damage +50% DoT  2/e

Greater LoH  1/e

Liberating Exhort 2/e

Sworn Enemy 3/r

 

Sworn Enemy is kind of a bummer as a per rest ability. Rather it was 1/e. Against high Deflection enemies, it would probably be best to let another party member hit them with a -Deflection debuff before using FoD, to ensure it connects. Dwarf would cap out at 17 Dex, so maybe an extra point in Res to help avoid random Interrupts.

[Crucis]

Mazeltov, while I have no problem with Estocs specifically, I don't like the Adventurer WF group.  It seems like a group composed of all the leftover weapons after all the other WF groups were compiled.  I tend to look at Soldier or Knight as being more appropriate and thematic for a paladin, but that's my personal preference.  Either of those two WF's give you the benefit of a decent high damage, long reload ranged weapon (i.e. either Crossbow, Arbalest, or Arquebus) for an opening ranged strike by the entire party.  This is where the Arms Bearer talent comes in, since with 3 weapon slots you can carry one ranged weapon and 2 melee weapon options.  Of course, one could go with an Aumaua and get the 3rd weapon slot free.

 

Another thing to consider is that one could play a Moon godlike and get that self healing benefit, which might arguably make taking lay on hands moot.

 

There are lots of different ways one could do this.

 

Also, I note that you suggested a 17 DEX.  This seems a bit odd to me when combined with the rather low seeming PER and RES scores, meaning that the pally won't be overflowing with DEFL.  I take it that the high DEX meant to offset any armor recovery penalty?

 

Regardless, I'm not one who looks to play evil types of characters, but this thematic paladin looks like it could work rather well for a Bleak Walker, particularly a Death GL Bleak Walker.

 

Frankly it's too bad that the Devs didn't focus paladins more along this thematic line of pally... the paladin who was focused on enhancing his own combat abilities.  Oh well.

[Crescent Hawk]

Sure mazeltov, that works on easy, normal, hard. I just made this two handed greatsword build on potd and it worked pretty well. Variation of one I already posted.

 

Mig 14
Con 11
Dex 9
Per 14
Int 11
Res 19


Lay on Hands
Zealous Focus
Sworn Enemy
Reviving Exhortation
Liberating Exhortation
Righteous Soul


Strange Mercy
Superior Deflection
Cautious Attack
Two handed style
Unstoppable
Weapon Focus Soldier

 

 

With Tidefall it was quite fine. I refuse to dump stats because reasons.

[MoxyWoo]

I think they built the WF:  Adventurer around wizard originally.

 

It gives a bonus to wand accuracy.

 

Wizards prefer chunky 2 handers like Estoc (best dps for them next to Tidefall) due to Alacrity.

 

Warbow has no "reload" animation that Alacrity would have issues off the other groups.

 

It has flails... grazes > hits are probably the only thing lacking for them due to the lower accuracy initially.

 

Paladins are actually served better with Sabres and chunky slow guns, so ruffian...  Because Flames of Devotion + lash effects + huge base damage = huge hits.... least 2/enc.  Pallegina seems to be geared this way as she has Zealos Focus which is mostly a gunner talent, and flames and her godlike racials are all +defense vs ranged or +defense vs disengaging.

[Crucis]

I just might give this self-centered thematic paladin a try tomorrow.  I understand that the 1.05 patch is probably dropping tomorrow, so the timing is good.

 

I'll probably go with a Shieldbearer pally, as I don't particularly enjoy playing evil characters.  And Bleak Walkers seem evil to me.  The downside is that none of the Shieldbearer order talents work with this theme as they're aimed at helping allies rather than themselves.  Oh, the price of being a benevolent and altruistic paladin. 

 

For a race, I'm tempted to either go elven or perhaps Moon GL (but with an elven form).  If I went straight elven, part of me is tempted to play the character as an off-tank, and let him/her use a bow as well as whatever melee weapon he/she chose.  I've always found the idea of a bow-armed elven paladin intriguing.  I played such a character once in IWD2 successfully.  The downside is that what I'd prefer would be to use a sabers and warbows, since a saber seems to most closely approximate what elvish longswords sort of looked like in the LOTR/Hobbit movies, rather than a traditional straight longsword.  But that's two different WF groups.    (Darn these WF groups.  If one's vision of a character doesn't fit a WF group, you're a little boned unless you're willing to pick 2 different groups.)

 

The thing with the idea of a bow-armed elven paladin is that they'll never come close to matching the capabilities of a ranger or ranged rogue, or perhaps/probably even a ranged Fighter.  The class doesn't have enough oomph to make it a reasonably effective build, so it'd be more about playing it for the RP value.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Crucis