Are Paladins really that bad?

[Brimsurfer]

..........................................................  on the other hand, the paladin kicks the fighter's arse at support functions such as buffing, debuffing and cleansing..............................................................

 

 

But isn't that what a Priest is supposed to do? And Priest does it better I think.........so why should we bother with a Paladin? Specially when so many people consider Fighter class to be indispensable, specially for main tanking.... So why shouldn't we just get a Fighter (who you are going to get no matter what) and a Priest and get the best of both worlds, why should we bother with Paladin at all (and stay mediocre in both departments; tanking and support).....I mean I am having trouble understanding the design here, in all honesty.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Laz0r]

I also have to disagree with the micromanagement with regards to the priest, compared to other classes, they're not really that bad.

 

 

 

..........................................................  on the other hand, the paladin kicks the fighter's arse at support functions such as buffing, debuffing and cleansing..............................................................

 

 

But isn't that what a Priest is supposed to do? And Priest does it better I think.........so why should we bother with a Paladin? Specially when so many people consider Fighter class to be indispensable, specially for main tanking.... So why shouldn't we just get a Fighter (who you are going to get no matter what) and a Priest and get the best of both worlds, why should we bother with Paladin at all (and stay mediocre in both departments; tanking and support).....I mean I am having trouble understanding the design here, in all honesty.

 

 

And this is exactly what I'm trying to get at. Even from a role playing perspective, you have options of Gods to follow as a priest and with Magran you still get bonuses from slaughtering people just like the bleak walkers. At least in my case.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Laz0r

[Gromnir]

 

..........................................................  on the other hand, the paladin kicks the fighter's arse at support functions such as buffing, debuffing and cleansing..............................................................

 

 

But isn't that what a Priest is supposed to do? And Priest does it better I think.........so why should we bother with a Paladin? Specially when so many people consider Fighter class to be indispensable, specially for main tanking.... So why shouldn't we just get a Fighter (who you are going to get no matter what) and a Priest and get the best of both worlds, why should we bother with Paladin at all (and stay mediocre in both departments; tanking and support).....I mean I am having trouble understanding the design here, in all honesty.

 

asked and answered.  is not that priests do better in support but that they do different, and they is far more squishy when doing it.  auras are not requiring casting, which in some battles is quite useful.  paladin auras also stack different than priest spells, which is a major advantage when paired with a priest.  and why not get a priest and a fighter?  

 

1=1

 

1+1 = 2

 

paladin occupies one party slot.   also, have a fighter and a priest don't make the priest any less squishy.  is more than a few folks who like to have a party with two tanks, and a paladin secondary tank who can also add support functionality is a great fit in may parties.

 

etc.

 

paladins is different and they do tend to be boring in our estimation, but that is actually one o' their selling points, which bring us to...

 

 

I also have to disagree with the micromanagement with regards to the priest, compared to other classes, they're not really that bad.

that is an opinion.  Gromnir likes micromanagement, so priests don't pose a problem for us.  nevertheless, one need not have followed these boards overmuch to recognize that a considerable % o' players find poe combat to be overwhelmingly frenetic and that they want far less micromanagement.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 13, 2015 by Gromnir

[Daemonjax]

I guess it comes down to:

 

Are there at least some fights where it's better to have a fighter + paladin + priest than a fighter + two priests.

 

I don't know.

 

As far as Paladins in games go, Pallegina is an interesting enough character to find a slot in my party at least some of the time.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Gromnir]

I guess it comes down to:

 

Are there at least some fights where it's better to have a fighter + paladin + priest than a fighter + two priests.

 

I don't know.

 

As far as Paladins in games go, Pallegina is an interesting enough character to find a slot in my party at least some of the time.

is no difficulty answering that question as more than once Gromnir has seen durance get 2-shot and dead in hm.   am not sure about the enemy casting time at the start o' a few battles as opponent priests and wizards or druids has, more than once, insta-cast serious spells at the start o' a set-piece battle. would very much have appreciated a paladin replacement for a few specific battles.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Laz0r]

I see what you're saying, but this entire game is basically pure micromanagement from the get go. I mean, your units don't even switch enemies properly without you pausing combat and explicitly telling them to. I just don't think that Paladins bring enough to the table in terms of support, their auras are just too small.

[Enexemander]

My main issue with paladins is that NPCs get no benefit from their alignment in regards to defenses. This should certainly be seen as a bug. If this were fixed, you could make an argument for the boring frontline fighter with great defenses who doesn't do too much damage, but at least stays reliable and provides some moderate utility.

 

They would still be outclassed by every other class in the game, mostly because there are 6 people available in a party. It's a lot to ask of a character to be useful as a nonstellar all-arounder when you've got that many spots available for specialization.

Ideally I think paladins need access to low level priest spells as they get higher so that the character feels like it progresses.

[Epsilon Rose]

My main issue with paladins is that NPCs get no benefit from their alignment in regards to defenses. This should certainly be seen as a bug. If this were fixed, you could make an argument for the boring frontline fighter with great defenses who doesn't do too much damage, but at least stays reliable and provides some moderate utility.

 

They would still be outclassed by every other class in the game, mostly because there are 6 people available in a party. It's a lot to ask of a character to be useful as a nonstellar all-arounder when you've got that many spots available for specialization.

 

Ideally I think paladins need access to low level priest spells as they get higher so that the character feels like it progresses.

Bah. Don't give them priest spells. Priests already do that and they do it better and, besides, casting priest spells would interfere with them doing paladin things. Give them more ways to charge them selves or their allies or bursts auras they can use to create instantaneous effects. New things that can fit their own niche, rather than clumsily trying to ape another class.

[Enexemander]

 

My main issue with paladins is that NPCs get no benefit from their alignment in regards to defenses. This should certainly be seen as a bug. If this were fixed, you could make an argument for the boring frontline fighter with great defenses who doesn't do too much damage, but at least stays reliable and provides some moderate utility.

 

They would still be outclassed by every other class in the game, mostly because there are 6 people available in a party. It's a lot to ask of a character to be useful as a nonstellar all-arounder when you've got that many spots available for specialization.

 

Ideally I think paladins need access to low level priest spells as they get higher so that the character feels like it progresses.

Bah. Don't give them priest spells. Priests already do that and they do it better and, besides, casting priest spells would interfere with them doing paladin things. Give them more ways to charge them selves or their allies or bursts auras they can use to create instantaneous effects. New things that can fit their own niche, rather than clumsily trying to ape another class.

 

I suppose that's fair. All in all there's a lot of room for improvement with the class.

 

My only concern with that suggestion is that any added abilities will likely only show up as feats you have to choose at level up. Really the class needs to progress naturally while still being able to choose offensive or defensive feats as well, in my opinion.

[Epsilon Rose]

 

 

My main issue with paladins is that NPCs get no benefit from their alignment in regards to defenses. This should certainly be seen as a bug. If this were fixed, you could make an argument for the boring frontline fighter with great defenses who doesn't do too much damage, but at least stays reliable and provides some moderate utility.

 

They would still be outclassed by every other class in the game, mostly because there are 6 people available in a party. It's a lot to ask of a character to be useful as a nonstellar all-arounder when you've got that many spots available for specialization.

 

Ideally I think paladins need access to low level priest spells as they get higher so that the character feels like it progresses.

Bah. Don't give them priest spells. Priests already do that and they do it better and, besides, casting priest spells would interfere with them doing paladin things. Give them more ways to charge them selves or their allies or bursts auras they can use to create instantaneous effects. New things that can fit their own niche, rather than clumsily trying to ape another class.

 

I suppose that's fair. All in all there's a lot of room for improvement with the class.

 

My only concern with that suggestion is that any added abilities will likely only show up as feats you have to choose at level up. Really the class needs to progress naturally while still being able to choose offensive or defensive feats as well, in my opinion.

 

This is true, but that's more of an implementation and system problem than a paladin problem. It feels like casters are a lot freer to advance their power than non-casters, largely because of which abilities become feats and what abilities are given for free or in their own progression.

[Brimsurfer]

They can give Paladins an AoE taunt ability or an aura that makes paladin appear more intimidating to enemies so they have chance to leave their current engagement and attack the paladin......... that should increase their viability as tank and it will be a different play style than a Fighter.... I guess.

[KDubya]

I think if they added in NPC paladin's faith and conviction is affected by the parties reputation that would improve paladins considerably and improve role play.

 

Another change I'd like is the number of sacred flame strikes that you get needs to increase. Start with two, take a talent that increases the fire damage of it - get another use, take the bleak walker extra corrosive damage - get another use, add in a talent that gets you another use. This way if you wanted to focus on that ability you could and get to use it five times per encounter with the expenditure of four talents. Maybe give it an accuracy boost as well or make a talent that increases accuracy with the attack. Maybe even a talent that added AoE to the strike, not sure on this one.

 

I'd make the base size of the aura's bigger so that intellect does not need to be pumped in order to have a decent area. I'd let you have multiple auras up at the same time.

 

I'd change the marked enemy talent into 1/encounter instead of 3/rest

[Epsilon Rose]

I think if they added in NPC paladin's faith and conviction is affected by the parties reputation that would improve paladins considerably and improve role play.

 

Another change I'd like is the number of sacred flame strikes that you get needs to increase. Start with two, take a talent that increases the fire damage of it - get another use, take the bleak walker extra corrosive damage - get another use, add in a talent that gets you another use. This way if you wanted to focus on that ability you could and get to use it five times per encounter with the expenditure of four talents. Maybe give it an accuracy boost as well or make a talent that increases accuracy with the attack. Maybe even a talent that added AoE to the strike, not sure on this one.

 

I'd make the base size of the aura's bigger so that intellect does not need to be pumped in order to have a decent area. I'd let you have multiple auras up at the same time.

 

I'd change the marked enemy talent into 1/encounter instead of 3/rest

Why do all of the upgrades need to get offloaded onto the talents system? That just prevents you from getting any of the tallents that would let you make good use of your now upgraded flames. Why not put a few of them on the abilities side?

[Gromnir]

They can give Paladins an AoE taunt ability or an aura that makes paladin appear more intimidating to enemies so they have chance to leave their current engagement and attack the paladin......... that should increase their viability as tank and it will be a different play style than a Fighter.... I guess.

the paladin is s'posed to be a support class.  keep finding ways to make it a better tank or a big hitter is just so wrong.

 

again, 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?hl=paladin

 

is primarily a support class.  some folks find the paladin to be inadequate in support, and while we don't necessarily agree, we do find the paladin gameplay to be boring.  we can fully get behind suggestions that would make the paladin support abilities more engaging and maybe even give the paladin more impressive auras (though there is already abilities that do just that.)  there is already striker/dps classes and tank classes that is more than adequate in their role.  is no reason to try and make the paladin their equal at such stuff when the paladin is 'posed to be support.

 

you didn't know what were the goals o' the developers for the paladin, and the developers were admitted unclear.  made sense that you would want the poe paladin to be more like a bg2 paladin.  well, now you do know, yes?

 

 

is no longer an excuse for trying to make the paladin into a tank or striker class. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[eubatham]

If it's a support class why is it so bad a support compared to other support classes? They have a far smaller pool of buffs to distribute, with more than one being weaker versions of what other classes can bring. And no, the buffs generally don't stack.

 

You've been repeating the same thing over and over again without even responding to our claims. You keep repeating that people are playing their Paladins wrong and need to play them more like support characters, yet you keep ignoring that you're telling this to people that say that Paladin supportive abilities suck. At other times you tell people that Paladins have great support, but don't bother to say why it's actually great support.

Edited April 14, 2015 by eubatham

[mazeltov]

the paladin is s'posed to be a support class.  keep finding ways to make it a better tank or a big hitter is just so wrong.

 

Even Flames of Devotion, which most consider to be a generic damage skill, is better viewed in my opinion as another way to reinforce Paladins' supporty nature. Instead of using the ability to open a fight, for example, hold onto it until an enemy unit is low enough on health that the extra damage from FoD will ensure a last hit on it, ideally proccing a bunch of supporty effects as a result.

 

The Bleak Walker Pally I'm using right now should be able to proc both Fear on all enemies and bonus Defenses for all allies within a large radius on every killing blow (please great JSaw above let Deathlike passive work on ~25% End and below instead 10% and below...). A Kind Wayfarer pally using the same strategy is even more impressive.

[Gromnir]

If it's a support class why is it so bad a support compared to other support classes? They have a far smaller pool of buffs to distribute, with more than one being weaker versions of what other classes can bring. And no, the buffs generally don't stack.

 

You've been repeating the same thing over and over again without even refuting our claims. You keep repeating that people are playing their Paladins wrong and need to play them more like support characters, yet you keep ignoring that you're telling this to people that say their supportive abilities suck.

it's not weaker. it's different.  you saying that the paladin is bad doesn't make it so.  the buffs can stack (though not universal) where spells do not and they do not require lengthy casting times.  the paladin is more durable and has better defenses than the other support classes, particular compared to the priest.  the paladin can use its buffs and debuffs and cleanses when necessary rather than relying on possibly ill-timed chants.  the paladin is different.

 

and am not telling people that they are playing the paladin wrong.  people can play the paladin however they wish.  its a role-play game. am telling folks that demanding the developers make the paladin a better striker or tank is peculiar and even wrong when the developers made it clear that the paladin is a freaking support class.  if you don't like the paladin as a support class, then lobby to make it a better support class.  like it or not, poe is a class-based system.  play however you want , but trying get the developers to make the paladin a better tank or striker is exhibiting a fundamental lack o' comprehension o' the paladin's role in a Class-Based system.

 

and if Gromnir is repeating self it is 'cause some folks likewise is repeating the same ridiculous complaints about the paladin's lack o' tankyness and dps.

 

"Even Flames of Devotion, which most consider to be a generic damage skill, is better viewed in my opinion as another way to reinforce Paladins' supporty nature. Instead of using the ability to open a fight, for example, hold onto it until an enemy unit is low enough on health that the extra damage from FoD will ensure a last hit on it, ideally proccing a bunch of supporty effects as a result."

 

agreed.  our most recent paladin is a gun build that uses flames o' devotion to guarantee killing blows.  it is very good support build.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 14, 2015 by Gromnir

[eubatham]

it's not weaker. it's different.  you saying that the paladin is bad doesn't make it so.  the buffs can stack (though not universal) where spells do not and they do not require lengthy casting times.  the paladin is more durable and has better defenses than the other support classes, particular compared to the priest.  the paladin can use its buffs and debuffs and cleanses when necessary rather than relying on possibly ill-timed chants.  the paladin is different.

 

The casting times aren't that much worse in most situations and a Paladin will most often have far less dexterity combined wear heavier armor, making them extremely sluggish to respond compared to the other support classes (even if they're wearing heavy armor, their generally higher Dex still more than makes up for it). And no, most buffs of the Paladin do not stack with the other support classes. Hastening Exhortation and one or two others (like FoD order boosts) are all that might stack (and I can confirm that Shielding Flames only stacks with certain buffs). 

 

A Paladin is more tanky, yes, but only if he's a PC. And if we look purely at support, not only do the other support classes posses more defensive abilities to use on themselves, but also more to use on their party. Not to mention extra abilities in the form of crowd control that they bring. You are also free to explain how an ability like Liberating Exhortation is supposed to compare against Suppress Affliction of a Priest.

Edited April 14, 2015 by eubatham

[ibanix]

Paladins are slightly sub-par Fighters with passive group-buff abilities. They're nice to balance out a group. Oh, and the shield that only Paladins can use that gives +5 Defenses to EVERYONE in the party. 

[ibanix]

 

it's not weaker. it's different.  you saying that the paladin is bad doesn't make it so.  the buffs can stack (though not universal) where spells do not and they do not require lengthy casting times.  the paladin is more durable and has better defenses than the other support classes, particular compared to the priest.  the paladin can use its buffs and debuffs and cleanses when necessary rather than relying on possibly ill-timed chants.  the paladin is different.

 

and am not telling people that they are playing the paladin wrong.  people can play the paladin however they wish.  its a role-play game. am telling folks that demanding the developers make the paladin a better striker or tank is peculiar and even wrong when the developers made it clear that the paladin is a freaking support class.  if you don't like the paladin as a support class, then lobby to make it a better support class.  like it or not, poe is a class-based system.  play however you want , but trying get the developers to make the paladin a better tank or striker is exhibiting a fundamental lack o' comprehension o' the paladin's role in a Class-Based system.

 

That's a lot of words to basically give no explanation.

 

 

Spent your next level points on Reading skill? Original post made complete sense to me.

[Gromnir]

 

it's not weaker. it's different.  you saying that the paladin is bad doesn't make it so.  the buffs can stack (though not universal) where spells do not and they do not require lengthy casting times.  the paladin is more durable and has better defenses than the other support classes, particular compared to the priest.  the paladin can use its buffs and debuffs and cleanses when necessary rather than relying on possibly ill-timed chants.  the paladin is different.

 

and am not telling people that they are playing the paladin wrong.  people can play the paladin however they wish.  its a role-play game. am telling folks that demanding the developers make the paladin a better striker or tank is peculiar and even wrong when the developers made it clear that the paladin is a freaking support class.  if you don't like the paladin as a support class, then lobby to make it a better support class.  like it or not, poe is a class-based system.  play however you want , but trying get the developers to make the paladin a better tank or striker is exhibiting a fundamental lack o' comprehension o' the paladin's role in a Class-Based system.

 

That's a lot of words to basically give no explanation.

 

you didn't say anything that we could respond to.  don't tell you how to play a paladin?  we ain't.  we won't.  paladins suck at support? that is your opinion which you offered no explanation to support.

 

hypocrisy much?

 

*shrug*

 

most complaints (not all) about the paladin in this thread  is stoopid... and weird. is just as ridiculous to demand more tanky abilities and more dps for priests and chanters, but the priests and chanters don't have the same ie and crpg baggage we s'pose.  Gromnir likes to play combat priests, but we play them as support characters who can contribute melee or ranged damage beyond their spell arsenal. would be ludicrous for us to demand the developers make the priest more rogue-like or more fighterish just 'cause we wanna dps or tank with a priest.  so, if you honestly don't believe that paladins is equal to priests and chanters in a support role, then how does giving them better dps and tank abilities make 'em better in support? 

 

wacky.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Infares]

...our most recent paladin is a gun build that uses flames o' devotion to guarantee killing blows.  it is very good support build.

Are the on-kill procs for Paladins' affected areas still centered around the Paladin or are they centered around the kill event that procced it? 

 

I was a little disappointed that The Sword And The Shepherd worked like that, made it hard to maintain 4m from the enemies (for Wood Elf Accuracy boost) and remain within range of my front line so they could benefit properly from the heal.

[eubatham]

Spent your next level points on Reading skill? Original post made complete sense to me.

 

He didn't even bother to way lay any of the points brought up by other people and just keeps straight out ignoring points that contest his claims, as usual.

 

Regardless, I've expanded my previous post to appease people that can't be bothered or aren't willing to read some of the points brought up earlier in this and other threads where he has participated in. You might also want to take a look at it (and the rest of the thread for that matter).

Edited April 14, 2015 by eubatham

[Gromnir]

 

...our most recent paladin is a gun build that uses flames o' devotion to guarantee killing blows.  it is very good support build.

Are the on-kill procs for Paladins' affected areas still centered around the Paladin or are they centered around the kill event that procced it? 

 

I was a little disappointed that The Sword And The Shepherd worked like that, made it hard to maintain 4m from the enemies (for Wood Elf Accuracy boost) and remain within range of my front line so they could benefit properly from the heal.

 

inspiring triumph, at the very least, centers on the paladin.  just checked and killed a far distant skeleton ranger archer with a gun and still got a full party hit.

 

more good news for paladins:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77493-elemental-talents-bug/

 

at least one obsidian qa guy believes that scion of flame not modifying flames o' devotion is a bug... but you will likely need to wait til 1.05 to see that fixed.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps although liberating exhortation is currently bugged, it has a fast cast time (as opposed to average), 2x the range o' suppress affliction and 4x the duration o' the aforemetioned priest spell and is a per encounter ability as opposed to those archaic quasi-vancian spells that reset per rest.  better?  is different.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Gromnir

[Brimsurfer]

Paladin is not entirely or mainly a support class as some people are claiming, its a front line MARTIAL class, with some aoe buffs (or some support skills) ........

 

The class notes and the devs notes say so on the game's official wiki.

 

After reading so much on this class and after playing it for a little while, i really believe if paladins get an intimidation aura to grab enemies attention or some kind of aoe taunt (may or may not duration based) that ought to bring this class into its own.

 

Because at the moment, a huge majority of player base considers Paladin class to be an underdog in this game. 95% of the people have told me i would be better off going as Fighter or a Priest.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Brimsurfer