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The minor problem with slow weapon and casting is that if you shot one you get a longer recovery period in which you can not cast anything. The actual casting speed and recovery are not affected of course. This can be remedied by turning auto attack off, but increases the amount of required micro,

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Slow casting animation? How is that linked to guns?

 

Because the animation is directly tied to how many shots you fire in a given length of time.  This is also why the Chanter chant, that gives x2 reload speed and other benefits, is so amazing for a party that uses guns/arbalests/crossbows.  Faster animation = faster attacking = more DPS.  The less frames the game uses in between attacks, the better it is.

 

 

You said casting animation. Casting is not the same as weapon animation

 

 

I didn't mean to sound like I was stating it was.  :)

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Slow casting animation? How is that linked to guns?

 

Because the animation is directly tied to how many shots you fire in a given length of time.  This is also why the Chanter chant, that gives x2 reload speed and other benefits, is so amazing for a party that uses guns/arbalests/crossbows.  Faster animation = faster attacking = more DPS.  The less frames the game uses in between attacks, the better it is.

 

Yep. And the difference is rather significant. I.e with dual stilettos, robe, max dex and 20% IAS mastery, you can cast spells faster than one/second. Thats great for bursting down, or quickly chain/cc with mental binding to rotate your group.But the cipher is very very squishy, even with body attunement and borrowed instincts. A ranged cipher can just sit back.

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Slow casting animation? How is that linked to guns?

 

Because the animation is directly tied to how many shots you fire in a given length of time.  This is also why the Chanter chant, that gives x2 reload speed and other benefits, is so amazing for a party that uses guns/arbalests/crossbows.  Faster animation = faster attacking = more DPS.  The less frames the game uses in between attacks, the better it is.

 

Yep. And the difference is rather significant. I.e with dual stilettos, robe, max dex and 20% IAS mastery, you can cast spells faster than one/second. Thats great for bursting down, or quickly chain/cc with mental binding to rotate your group.But the cipher is very very squishy, even with body attunement and borrowed instincts. A ranged cipher can just sit back.

 

 

I don't personally think that a melee cipher is viable outside of easy and normal mode.  Just way too squishy to be on the front lines.  

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The minor problem with slow weapon and casting is that if you shot one you get a longer recovery period in which you can not cast anything. The actual casting speed and recovery are not affected of course. This can be remedied by turning auto attack off, but increases the amount of required micro,

Actually blunderbuss/arbalest have really long reload phase, attack/recovery pretty long too, but not so much. Thing is that you can cast during reload phase, so here is difference between bows and blunderbuss.

 

Bow - lot of short recovery phases between attacks during which you cant cast.

Blunderbuss - average phase during which you cant cast + long phase during which you can cast.

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The minor problem with slow weapon and casting is that if you shot one you get a longer recovery period in which you can not cast anything. The actual casting speed and recovery are not affected of course. This can be remedied by turning auto attack off, but increases the amount of required micro,

Actually blunderbuss/arbalest have really long reload phase, attack/recovery pretty long too, but not so much. Thing is that you can cast during reload phase, so here is difference between bows and blunderbuss.

 

Bow - lot of short recovery phases between attacks during which you cant cast.

Blunderbuss - average phase during which you cant cast + long phase during which you can cast.

 

I know that, longer recovery can still be annoying at times though when you need to cast a spell ASAP.

Edited by MadDemiurg
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I actually love using a pike on the Cipher. To be fair, the Blunderbuss is far and away the best weapon for the Cipher (and the focus generation on it for Ciphers should honestly be changed), but I just personally enjoy mixing it up (safely behind my meatshields :D  ) much more than using a gun. Which is strange because I was so sure I was going to go the Pistol Prof X route because of my love of Arcanum Gun Mages.

I've had zero issues about focus with the Pike, and I like that I'm still in a safe spot behind the front line yet still in range for some of the Ciphers closer ranged powers, and I've run it in Hard and POTD. Plus, as a Hearth Orlan who sided with the Doemenel's, the damage you can do with a good supporting pike hit is fantastic. I've never tried to use him as a tank or a pure front-liner, but he's proven durable enough that he can hold off enemies that make it (usually via teleport) into my squish backline.

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Honestly Cipher works with most weapon setups. The only strong recommendation I have is that you avoid a pure melee build, because ciphers are frail and built for damage and CC - so you probably want to use light or no armor for extra speed, making them one of the squishiest classes aside from wizards. It's not that you absolutely can't do melee, but with ranged you won't have to compromise your damage output and spellcasting potential nearly as much.

 

Other than that there are basically 2 way to go - either go for that huge alpha-damage that a arquebus or blunderbuss can give you (which sets you up with enough focus to finish many encounters right there) or go with very fast weapons to maximize your draining whip potential (+2 pr hit). The former tends to be more effective in the strict sense since PoE has so many enemies with high DR that fast weapons are pretty strongly penalized (especially the tougher the fight is), but it is also a little unreliable in the sense that a single miss at the start of combat leaves you with no focus-gain and a long wait-time before you can do much else. Fast weapons enable you to be more responsive and cast stuff when you NEED to do so - rather than having to wait on a huge cooldown before you can actually spend that focus.

 

You said no guns, but the blunderbuss has to be mentioned for the cipher since it works by shooting 6 individual attacks all in one. that means 6x draining whip. Even if you do almost no damage due to high DR (blunderbuss is obviously more suceptible to that) a hit will gain you at LEAST 12 focus regardless. With the right talents (and even the chanter reload chant) to back it up the blunderbuss is a very strong potential build for cipher.

 

If not the blunderbuss then it's really a matter of preference in fast (less DPS against tough targets but more reactive and flexible) or slow ranged weapons (more DPS potential , less reliable, less flexible). You won't be gimping yourself either way I think.

 

-Stigma

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You mean wizard/cipher cast fireball faster when bow equiped rather than arqebus?

No, you cast just as fast with any weapon.

 

With a very slow weapon however you will be unable to cast for a long time after a shot however due to the extensive cooldown. That results in many situations where you need to cast an important crowd-control spell right now - but you are forced into a long wait-cycle. With a fast weapon you can react to the situation much better (but as mentioned before, due to how DR works in this game and considering how many enemies have fairly high DR, fast weapons can tend to be somewhat ineffective against tough enemies).

 

-Stigma

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I can't wait to get my hands on a blunderbuss for my Cipher. To be honest, I'll probably just use it to open a fight and stack focus at the very beginning. I typically use the mental binding and mind blades spells anyways. CC the battlefield or sling in some conjured blades for some AoE. Once my focus hits the bottom, I'll flank targets that are on my tank to stack up on some quick focus to start slinging spells again. 

 

So far, I don't really get hit. I play my Cipher more like a rogue in that I use my resources to help and I go into melee when the time is right. With this in mind, I don't really need any heavy armor because he's not a traditional front line brute. 

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So far, I don't really get hit. I play my Cipher more like a rogue in that I use my resources to help and I go into melee when the time is right. With this in mind, I don't really need any heavy armor because he's not a traditional front line brute. 

I just stuck with padded armor for my Cipher. Just enough protection I didn't have to worry about being insta-gibbed, but not so much that my guy felt like he was moving in molasses. 

 

I did see a youtuber (via Reddit) that was running an Amuamua-thingie Cipher in plate mail dual wielding a flail and something else. It wasn't a low difficulty run either, and he was doing exceptionally well with it. That kind of Brute Cipher idea seems like it may be interesting to play.

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Slow casting animation? How is that linked to guns?

 

Because the animation is directly tied to how many shots you fire in a given length of time.  This is also why the Chanter chant, that gives x2 reload speed and other benefits, is so amazing for a party that uses guns/arbalests/crossbows.  Faster animation = faster attacking = more DPS.  The less frames the game uses in between attacks, the better it is.

 

Yep. And the difference is rather significant. I.e with dual stilettos, robe, max dex and 20% IAS mastery, you can cast spells faster than one/second. Thats great for bursting down, or quickly chain/cc with mental binding to rotate your group.But the cipher is very very squishy, even with body attunement and borrowed instincts. A ranged cipher can just sit back.

 

 

I don't personally think that a melee cipher is viable outside of easy and normal mode.  Just way too squishy to be on the front lines.  

 

If you´re good at rotating body atunement and borrowed instincts, it can work as an "off-tank". But the idea is more to use ranged weapons when the fight starts, but switch to DW once the bulk of adds have been removed and your focus bar is relatively full. The idea is not to use the weapons themselves - but to chain your abilities back-to-back and react to any threat immediately.

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