Let's talk class balance....

[Ganrich]

Ouuu - that special talent with scrolls sounds really different, fitting and nice. Never thought of this but it makes kind of sense for a chanter (who knows lots of lore and so on).

 

@PrimeJunta: Scatman John roflmao.

 

Can you keep up?

Indeed. That's why I like it. Reciting the language of the scrolls via memory fits the setting's lore on chanters, they are a Lore centered class, and it makes them a little more versatile while allowing them a little more active play style. It just fits all around, and it makes Deep Pockets a very worth while talent for synergy.

[Boeroer]

They should also introduce items (baggy pants?) that grant +1 quick slot.

[Ganrich]

Well, I don't disagree, but the neat thing about this talent idea is that it keeps the Chanter from stepping on the other caster's toes too much. If they could get too many slots for those scrolls it could get a bit insane coupled with their buffs/debuffs and invocations. Four to six spells that can be cast only once per combat (3 times per rest, etc) means they aren't as potent as the casters those spells belong to, but it also allows the chanter to fill in gaps in party composition. This also is kind of what bards did in their DnD form. They could be helpful in melee (with pre-buffing in Nwn2 they were silly good there as well), they can be ok archers that supplements their inability to hang with rangers and archery based fighters with spells, or they could be an ok caster that can off-heal. All while they wore better armor than the casters in DnD.

 

Since chanters are a bit underwhelming in casting because of mechanics (getting phrase points is too long in the tooth, but I know the upcoming patch is supposed to fix that), in melee (because of lack of talents that aren't also available to fighters rogues, barbarians, monks, Paladins), and with ranged weapons (same reason as melee). I think giving them talents that play into those pockets a bit more is good. I could even see talents that increase their potency in melee while hurting their ranged casting and/or ranged weapon efficiency, or vice versa.

 

Right now, I think we can all agree, chanters are only good at buffing/debuffing... and summoning when the fight is more or less over. Heck, I would like to see an early level talent (or talents) that give some focus to melee or archery/guns while potentially inhibiting summoning. I personally hate summoning classes, but I love playing bard classes. So, at present PoE has left me with very little to enjoy. I'm not knocking the game at all, but I have only completed the game twice because of how chanters operate as of present. Heck, a very early talent that greatly increases phrase counter generation, but inhibits the chanter from summoning invocations would be amazing.

 

My last 2 cents... I think it was a bad call making the summoning class a class without limits to casting, and I think the long build up to cast is the very reason the decision was made to make the chanter the summoner (perhaps, it was the the other way around, though. EG. The decision to have such a slow build up to cast was because the chanter was made the summoner). I would have made a necromencer or conjurer class that was limited per rest or encounter to summons, but I know that with their Kickstarter financial allowance that they did what they could and consolidated.

[PrimeJunta]

Frankly I'm not sure about the chanter's core mechanic. It sounds good on paper but in practice not being able to use the invocations until late in the encounter just makes the whole thing unwieldy.

 

The cipher plays much better because you can open with something, and the monk plays much better because those fancy moves are the kind of thing you would do when in the thick of it. The chanter is just... not much fun. And I'm not sure a brute-force solution like giving him some "base" phrases (1 at level 3, 2 at level 6, 3 at level 9, 4 at level 12 f.ex., nicely mirroring the "level 1 spells are per-encounter" thing the semi-Vancian casters have) would solve it as much as turn them into cut-rate ciphers.

 

Chanting faster as they level up is a must but not sure it's sufficient. We'll see what they've done with them in 3.0.

[evilcat]

I used Kana as weapon and shield frontman, with Galant Focus (that is almost as "better song"), and quickslots, Song: Quicness+LittleDragons+Save/Will song. At least it feel fun enough to not make me kick him out.

 

Problems:

1. Class mechanic scaling. Most classes get more powerful as level progress. Rogues hit harder, caster have so many spells they will sooner run out of health. But chanters, they get more powerful songs/invocation but cant cast them more, but less.

2. Spells /encounter. It is big power spike after level 9 for regular casters.  15 spells (ring included) per encounter for free. It is hard to competite with that with any class.

3. Chants are not that powerful. Defensive chants are nice, but we may as well chain cast Circle of Protencion and Blessing. And that would be more or less the same, but Priest can then bring much more, chanter not so much.

4. Gimmick tier 2 chants. It is hard to find good power up song on tier II, frightened is good, but Ilia is a gimmick, frosttrail is a gimmick, 12 is gimmick, So at levels 5-8 chanters do not get "new toy".

5. No class talents to push them somewhere. Cipher talents at least do something.

 

Side note: There could be a statistic "healing done", i always wondered how good are beloved spirits.

 

Chant time could be fixed for 4sec each tier. If i wanted dragons last 8 sec i would sing it twice in a row or something.

 

One way to improve is to give more talents, like:

Summoner - Your summons last twice as long (timer)

Master of puppets - You can summon two sets of summons

Gate to spiritworld - 1/encounter. Summon "something" random creature or group of them. Could be wreith or ogre.

 

Encore! - 2/encounter. Usable after using invocation. Allows to instantly regein freshly used stacks.

Trance - when chanting gain bonus DR

Crescendo - each chant give you stack of bonus attack speed and weapon dmg. The longer you sing, the faster you hit.

 

Talents which buff all chants with small but often useful effects. Something like Galant Focus.

Song of Freedom - All chants provide +15 defence bonus against mind control.

Inspiration Song - All chants provide +5 Accuracy. (we can make Galant Focus official chanter talent)

 

Talents which altering chant range:

Echo - Your chants have +50% linger time

Broadcast - Your chants have +50% range

 

New Chants to choose from, especially at tier II

Stinging Words - aoe dmg chant, which deals corrode and piercing dmg to enemies

Soothing tune - chant which simply heals allies with meaningful endurance amount.

Xuirp on red hot rooftop - Allies get bonus action speed. (haste)

Edited January 8, 2016 by evilcat

[Ganrich]

Frankly I'm not sure about the chanter's core mechanic. It sounds good on paper but in practice not being able to use the invocations until late in the encounter just makes the whole thing unwieldy.

 

The cipher plays much better because you can open with something, and the monk plays much better because those fancy moves are the kind of thing you would do when in the thick of it. The chanter is just... not much fun. And I'm not sure a brute-force solution like giving him some "base" phrases (1 at level 3, 2 at level 6, 3 at level 9, 4 at level 12 f.ex., nicely mirroring the "level 1 spells are per-encounter" thing the semi-Vancian casters have) would solve it as much as turn them into cut-rate ciphers.

 

Chanting faster as they level up is a must but not sure it's sufficient. We'll see what they've done with them in 3.0.

I agree. Monks are reactive in nature. They take damage, and their abilities are fueled. Ciphers are the opposite, but still reactive. They hit things, and fuel their abilities. They can also attack before abilities are fueled.

 

All the while chanters... wait, and a person versed in the game will rarely use anything but chants with their chanter. They won't see much use for invocations, and when they do it is usually just a clean up of the trash still on the field.

 

Aniother idea to potentially toss around to alleviate this:

 

A talent/ability that speeds up counter generation based on the number of friendlies being buffed by a phrase, or the same for enemies being debuffed. That way some more positioning is required. The problem is it would incentivize high Intellect as a byproduct, and imho chanters already benefit far too much from intellect. It's almost a must have attribute as is.

 

Perhaps a talent that gives the chanter a bonus phrase counter when they are put under the effect of CC would be interesting too.

 

I like the idea of their Invocations being more devastating than other casters, but fewer and farther between. However, right now they almost never cast and some invocations aren't devastating at all. Since they build so slowly, the non summoning invocations likely need a value pass. Perhaps after the update.

 

Other ideas:

 

Ancient memory and its secondary talent should become a buff with a status on friendlies, and it should be unstackable so that it can do more healing. Then you could have other talents that do other effects to friendlies or enemies while they are in range of the chanter that work in the same unstackable fashion. IIRC Ancient memory was nerfed because 6 man Chanter teams were out healing damage. I think talented it healed 6 damage every few seconds, and 6 chanters made that 36 damage. This would stop that from being a thing and make that talent, and others like it we could create, useful again.

 

Focused Chanting - this talent causes the chanter's phrase effect values to double on a target that is being attacked with the chanter's weapon if he is inside the chanter's pbaoe circle. EG. Thick Grew their tongues causes -10 concentration on enemies within the effect, but with this talent if you are attacking the caster in the back then they suffer -20.

 

I also think that burning extra phrase counters is a terrible mechanic. Why do I lose all 4 counters if I use a level one(3 count cost) invocation instead of a level 2 (4 count cost)? I understand the Lore reason for it, but the mechanic is bad. This garbage doesn't happen to monks or ciphers. Not that it matters in the present game... Since you rarely get one invocation off anyways... Much less 2. It irritates me. Perhaps, effect numbers could be increased if you have 4+ phrases built up and use a level 1 phrase that isn't a summon? Actually, I rather like that idea. It would make those level 1 damage conal abilities be more useful into late game. If you cast a level 1 invocation when you have more than 3 counters then you get +% increase to the effect per extra phrase counter over 3. If that makes sense.

 

The scroll talent I suggested doesn't step on Cipher's toes much, nor monk's, but it does a bit on priest's, druid's, and wizard's. However, only having a single cast per encounter of a limited list of 4-6 spells from all 3 classes makes them much less potent than the dedicated class, but it lets the Chanter fill in gaps in party makeup when you are missing one or two of those casters (priest, Druid, wizards).

 

@Evilcat - I am also not a fan of most level 2 invocations. They are, as you said, mostly gimmicks.

[evilcat]

I like idea of giving chanters free talents at some high levels "reduce stacks needed for all invocations by 1" (but not less than 1). 

It looks rather simple, yet it gets things done. The songs will still take long but being able at least cast paralyze/sunder more often could be OP enought.