Con Artist Build?

[Moorkh]

I’m at something of a loss here.

 

I like to model my RPG characters after the great Cugel the Clever, a (well, not really) cunning rogue with very mercenary morals, enormous ego, little taste for fighting and a fine-tuned survival instinct. Subterfuge, sleight-of-hand, imposture and plenty of straight-faced lying are my favoured tools, employed with a ready smile and a good if ill-used insight in humanoid/monstrous nature.

 

Just a few hours into my first play-through, it seems to become clear that PoE’s rogue class is not doing much for me. While I can (and do) send my hired fighter into battle in my stead, my “rogue” skills, mechanics and stealth, don’t really come into play in less violent interactions. What is more, they are not at all specific to my class, not, it seems, to my set of abilities (that conspicuously lacks any indication of my prowess - and progress - as a talker and manipulator).

 

Now, I guess any other class should do just as well, then, but which would you recommend to be able to role-play this kind of con artist best? And why?

 

Also, I wonder, will there be a sense of (mechanical) advancement in the game regarding my ability to steal, trick and misdirect? And what abilities should I best focus in as a charisma replacement?

While I had consciously ignored much of the beta, I do recall JES emphasising that any play style should be valid - is mine too offbeat, then?

Edited March 30, 2015 by Moorkh

[redviiper]

Rogue who pumps resolve. Gain mechanics and stealth as skills.

[falchen]

Resolve is used for lying and bullying in conversations.

 

You might like cyphers, a lot of their spells can confuse, disable or charm/dominate enemies, and they work well at either range or melee.

 

Looks like you can avoid a lot of comabt in this as there is an achievmeent for only killing 175 creatures during the whole game too.

[Gallenger]

If you wanna be a sneaky sneak, rogues can be the very best sneaky sneak -  don't let the fact that everybody else can sneak too get you down, you've got a bonus there.  It's just like D&D - everybody can invest points into sneak, but they'll never be able to catch up to you if you make a concerted effort. 

 

As far as social skills, that's *all* reliant on your base statistics - there aren't any social skills "skills" or smooth talker perks to take.  Literally any class can be a face with enough resolve, and perception + the right built up reaction traits (I'm still not 100% on how those affect dialogue but they hopefully do). 

 

If you want to play a face though, the thing you'll have to ask yourself is, are you having fun playing the class in general.  If you don't like the role of thief (being the highest damage output character in the game - by using dirty tricks and sneakery) then there are a bergillion other classes to pick that may suit your fancy. 

[Moorkh]

Thanks for your replies. Some food for thought.

 

Rogue who pumps resolve. Gain mechanics and stealth as skills.

 

But resolve sounds like the polar opposite of what my Cugel-ess ought to have. She should be flexible, instead, equally of mind, tongue and morals. Mightn't intelligence do the job for liars?

 

 

Resolve is used for lying and bullying in conversations.

 

You might like cyphers, a lot of their spells can confuse, disable or charm/dominate enemies, and they work well at either range or melee.

 

Looks like you can avoid a lot of comabt in this as there is an achievmeent for only killing 175 creatures during the whole game too.

 

Yes, definitely - I'd like to have my Cugel-ess avoid combat altogether, not from any squeamishness or other sentiment but from the simple, logical desire not to put myself into harm's way where not absolutely necessary. So cyphers can pacify their opponents?  

 

If you wanna be a sneaky sneak, rogues can be the very best sneaky sneak -  don't let the fact that everybody else can sneak too get you down, you've got a bonus there.  It's just like D&D - everybody can invest points into sneak, but they'll never be able to catch up to you if you make a concerted effort. 

 

As far as social skills, that's *all* reliant on your base statistics - there aren't any social skills "skills" or smooth talker perks to take.  Literally any class can be a face with enough resolve, and perception + the right built up reaction traits (I'm still not 100% on how those affect dialogue but they hopefully do). 

 

If you want to play a face though, the thing you'll have to ask yourself is, are you having fun playing the class in general.  If you don't like the role of thief (being the highest damage output character in the game - by using dirty tricks and sneakery) then there are a bergillion other classes to pick that may suit your fancy. 

 

What, precisely, is that bonus at sneaking? Isn't it the same as monk, cipher and ranger have? I do like the role of thief, in fact I'm rather enamoured with it, but being high dps shouldn't be included in the same sentence, there. My Cugel-ess is no pit figher, no!

 

Shame if every character should be equally well at subterfuge and manipulation, be it a saintly monk, a brawny brute or a madly cackling witch. And unable to advance in their skill at it, too? RPG much?

 

I'm thinking I will at this point just ignore her fighting capabilities altogether aside from a safe knife in the back where opportune. And hex edit her abilities as needed. If game design is trying to cheat me out of playing my char as I should be able to, don't anyone mind me cheating back  

[cctobias]

If I were you I would seriously make an effort to disconnect the words used for the stats from any sort actual meaning besides their actual functions.  You are literally going to run into a plethora of problems if you try to RP off the stats.

 

I suggest making a tanky chanter with high resolves/perception and take a background with a bonus to mechanics.  Chanter seems in line with the con-artist.  Resolve is a tanking skill and it will let you lie.  In your mind just refer to it as "Attribute #6" so you don't get confused.

[falchen]

Wait are you actually trying to play a non combat character, am I getting that right? If so then yea, this absolutely might not be the game for you then.

 

Cyphers get a lot of stuns and disables, and they can brainwash enemies to hit each other but their spell casting resource comes from hitting or shooting guys first.

 

A priest could be played as a straight up buffer or debuffer but there's nothing roguey about those. Same with a chanter/summoner, but even then the idea is that you hit or shoot stuff while your chants give small boosts.

Edited March 30, 2015 by falchen

[Gallenger]

Well there *is* an achievement for getting less than 175 kills.  You could prolly manage to just sneak past a bunch of stuff and stick to the main quest and pertinent side-quests. 

 

I never really saw the value in social-skill values to RP, since they tend to hinder RP - you always had that guy at the table that wanted to say and do persuasive things, despite him being a fighter with 0 ranks in diplomacy, and so you either had to say no to a perfectly logical argument, or "fudge" a bonus roll, ie ignore stats. 

[falchen]

Well there *is* an achievement for getting less than 175 kills.  You could prolly manage to just sneak past a bunch of stuff and stick to the main quest and pertinent side-quests.

 

Yea seems like you'd get that by walking past or avoiding quests and encounters rather than solving them peacefully, basically a speed run of sorts. Doesn't sound like that's what the OP is looking for either.

Edited March 30, 2015 by falchen

[Moorkh]

So what do you suggest I should RP off of instead? I'm not looking at min/maxing here as much as a meaningful choice in gameplay that is supported by its mechanics. That's what RPG mechanics are for, no?

 

The guys from BI, Troika and Obsidian have always had a heart for the pacifists among their players' characters, so I kinda expected to see this catered to in the first game they had full creative freedom in, too. I guess I must dig deeper in this question.

[Viperswhip]

I've been playing a Malkavian in Bloodlines lately and I like how you can use your magic in conversations. That would be cool here for certain classes.

[sean10mm]

Rogue is fine for what you want too, you just have to understand what attributes produce the effects you want, since it doesn't work like D&D.  You want to focus on:

 

Perception - In interactions, it can be used to catch someone in a lie, to make an observant comment about their appearance, or to notice something happening in the background. 

Intellect - In interactions, it can be useful for deduction, sudden realizations, and problem-solving.

Resolve -  It can be useful for mental intimidation, leadership, and convincing performances.

Dexterity - In interactions, it can be used for sleight-of-hand and fast reactions.

 

You also might want to look into lore if you want to fast-talk people by pulling obscure facts out of nowhere:

 

Lore- Lore represents a character's accumulated miscellaneous knowledge and trivia, often of occult or esoteric topics. 

 

Stealth is both combat stealth and being unseen while stealing.  Mechanics is locks and traps and finding hidden objects.

 

And in combat rogues have high DPS based on using rogue tactics, not just standing up and stabbing things.  It's all contingent on sneak attacks, dirty fighting, blinding strikes, and generally being a weasel (shoot their strongest guy in the face from stealth for a sneak attack, run and hide behind your fighter, then go behind enemies and start stabbing/shooting once they're engaged with your big guys.)

 

If you're maxing out perception and resolve your various defenses will be high enough that you can dump constitution and still be survivable thanks to deflection/reflexes/etc., etc. and intelligence increases the duration of your rogue dirty tricks, so that kind of build should be pretty viable in general.

[Tigranes]

I think the pacificist / trickster route was ultimately given less time in POE1, given the lack of resources (KS was awesome but it's very different from having tens of millions of dollars to work off for NWN2 or whatnot). I think Stealth, Mechanics, Perception and Dexterity are often checked in conversations and text adventures for relevant things, and in combat, you could focus on paralysing, charming, hobbling and otherwise confounding enemies in terms of ability selection.