Fixing skills

[sniggy]

Okay so u want all battle to stop when enemies reach half health then have the chance to redeem them or have them run away. It would get rather anoying. Slicing and dicing then when ur about to kill him, a dialog starts and they run away. If that were to happen every single time u went into combat it would get so anoying... The options on the consoles are things that u can do, it doesn't describe how u do it though. There isn't an actual overload button to my knowledge, it's the command to reroute alot of power to a certain conduit in a certain room, just with a simplified choice so u don't have to read all that text.

no, obviously there will be some very thick-headed people who won't listen or who won't talk and i will GLADLY slice them in half with my lightsaber. i hope that the devs will support the slicing of annoying people

[sniggy]

But he even pointed out in FO2 enemies would run away when low on hitpoints and I'm not sure but sometimes they'd run away right at the beginning of the fight. I could swear they actually realized I was in power armor sporting a gauss rifle and they were punks in leather jackets with smgs. WOW! Amazing. And not annoying at all.

so i have - and you're right, in FO2 they actually beat it as soon as they realized that they can't win (low morale i guess). of course, there were some thickheads who just couldn't get it - and i had to shoot those, but hey, that's life.

 

It also brought up an interesting moral choice. He IS an orc. He has attacked and killed humans before. Should you show mercy?

 

good point. darksider has killed a lot of people (take malak) - should you still try to redeem him or just cut his head off. if you really play a jedi, you'd try if you thought that there was some way to do it.

 

same with dimwit attackers. as qui-gon said it: "there's always a bigger fish" i think it to be unnecessary to kill every cantina rowdy just to make a point. cutting of limbs would be different though

 

Right about the overload. That's just manipulation of the energy flow to overwhelm a conduit

 

hmm. okay, i can see that. manipulating energy flows- or even locking doors air-sealed and then sucking the air out of a room. that would work. gas i just don't know- maybe hack the ventilation system to draw some waste fumes inside?

[Chemix]

There is a difference between putting words in ones mouth and mis understanding wording. I meant balanced, not as in health or difficulty level, but as in combat, swords/sabers vs blasters but since this convo is not about such I'll discontinue that. Yes MGS and SC are very popular, does that prove the RPGers like to hide whenever possible and only do damage through consoles (which I do think is fun, but should be more complex, expanding upon the base kotor provided, with wiring puzzles, keypads, little messages that say what ur doing, and having to do stuff manualy if u don't have a high skill. Like having to go into the interface and reroute power from sections b and c to sections a, or simply the option (if u have a high skill level) with a description of what ur doing, then the successful message, and a quicker swtich to the camera. So spikes don't matter as much they just get u into the system. Thats just one idea ofcourse.) Back onto the topic of stealth and enemies fleeing. Perhaps street thugs fleeing would be alright, but sith gaurds who are at war with the republic would likely stand and fight, after all they have back up, rifles, and armor. In games like MGS and SC u don't realy have much armor to my knowledge, and ur enemies are often heavily armed with mild-moderate armor, hense why u don't want to get caught. LS shouldn't be forced to do an alternate everything so they won't have to kill evil sith troops who all want to kill u. It's not like the map has radar and shows where enemies are. It just shows where stuff is. I have nothing againts stealthing, some people like that and some people like a challenge, if it was harder for enemies to detect u in darkness it would be interesting, but no as soon as u are within range, they leave their basic script and start shooting.

 

The main problem is overcomplexity, ur turning a simple raid on a sith base into a nightmare for those who are just looking to go through the game remain lightside and just have a good time. If enemy and ally AI were improved with a major overhaul, things like hiding in shadows to remove detection without using a cloaking device would be nice. Or following wet footprints through halls. Instead of the basic, wait till he's within pre specified range then run up to him and make horribly off aim shots. U shouldn't have to try to avoid all possible conflict at all times to remain LS. Note that this is only my opinion, and I don't mean to offend anyone

[Shdy314]

There is a difference between putting words in ones mouth and mis understanding wording. I meant balanced, not as in health or difficulty level, but as in combat, swords/sabers vs blasters but since this convo is not about such I'll discontinue that. Yes MGS and SC are very popular, does that prove the RPGers like to hide whenever possible and only do damage through consoles (which I do think is fun, but should be more complex, expanding upon the base kotor provided, with wiring puzzles, keypads, little messages that say what ur doing, and having to do stuff manualy if u don't have a high skill. Like having to go into the interface and reroute power from sections b and c to sections a, or simply the option (if u have a high skill level) with a description of what ur doing, then the successful message, and a quicker swtich to the camera. So spikes don't matter as much they just get u into the system. Thats just one idea ofcourse.) Back onto the topic of stealth and enemies fleeing. Perhaps street thugs fleeing would be alright, but sith gaurds who are at war with the republic would likely stand and fight, after all they have back up, rifles, and armor. In games like MGS and SC u don't realy have much armor to my knowledge, and ur enemies are often heavily armed with mild-moderate armor, hense why u don't want to get caught. LS shouldn't be forced to do an alternate everything so they won't have to kill evil sith troops who all want to kill u. It's not like the map has radar and shows where enemies are. It just shows where stuff is. I have nothing againts stealthing, some people like that and some people like a challenge, if it was harder for enemies to detect u in darkness it would be interesting, but no as soon as u are within range, they leave their basic script and start shooting.

 

The main problem is overcomplexity, ur turning a simple raid on a sith base into a nightmare for those who are just looking to go through the game remain lightside and just have a good time. If enemy and ally AI were improved with a major overhaul, things like hiding in shadows to remove detection without using a cloaking device would be nice. Or following wet footprints through halls. Instead of the basic, wait till he's within pre specified range then run up to him and make horribly off aim shots. U shouldn't have to try to avoid all possible conflict at all times to remain LS. Note that this is only my opinion, and I don't mean to offend anyone

Combat with lightsabers vs. ANYTHING is not balanced. Lightsabers will own.

 

I think ti proves that players don't mind intelligent gameplay and playing sneaky characters as long as doing so remains a fun and viable option and they aren't penalized for it. Like getting no XP from sneaking by the guard and having to kill them for it.

 

Yeah it'd be nice if the computer usage was expanded. It is odd you say you want complexity in the computer usage but then rail against my desire for more complex indepth actions in general.

 

The Sith troopers are not insane religious zealots like The Covenant in Halo. And they DONT get backup! which is part of the problem I have with how they handle what SHOULD be infiltration missions but turn into hackfests. They may have armor and a rifle but those are both useless against a Jedi. It's as if soldiers stayed and atempted to take out a tank when they lack any kind of armament that can stop the tank. Jedi is the tank and Sith troopers are the soldiers. Soldiers DO retreat when faced with an impossible situation as long as retreat is an option. Now when assaulting a massive Sith military base I agree they aren't going to flee because they should have overwhelming numbers on their side. But in KOTOR they DONT. Which is boring and unrealistic.

 

And Jedi DO have armor? They wear robes! Even in the movies Jedi do not want to be detected on board major military installations if they can help it. For example Obi wan on the Death Star. Even Yoda would be hard pressed to fight every single guard on board the Death Star. And it is a lot harder to commit acts of sabotage when in the middle of a firefight.

 

Well KOTOR 2 has force sight so who needs radar? And you can stealth.

 

LS is already forced to do things the hard way but in a very contrived and stupid way. It is supposed to be this way in SW. Staying LS is HARD. This should be reflcted in game. And not by making me solve a puzzle instead of releasing a poison. Though the consequences for releasing said poison are very nice and realistic.

 

Darkness doesn't matter when you can stealth. Look at the stealth camo in MGS. They never detected Mission when she was cloaked so I don't know why you think guards automatically detect any stealthed characters. Some important enemies though do have scripts that reveal you even if stealthed. But not regular old Sith troopers. Oh and Sith troopers should patrol. Why are 5 hanging around in a lab????? Patrol the freaking corridors. And there is a damaged droid just hovering out in a hallway!? What is that?

 

Overcomplexity?????!!! A raid on a Sith military compound on a Sith occupied planet isn't SIMPLE! Okae everyone raise your hand if you want KOTOR to just be a simple adventure game (which it almost was) where walking into heavily guarded Sith outposts is simple and being LS is a breeze. It isn't a "nightmare" to put situations in the game for you to act intelligently. And it isn't a nightmare to reflect how difficult it is supposed to be to remain LS in SW. Yes AI should be smarter. This is KOTOR 2 not KOTOR. Stop saying why it wouldn't work in KOTOR. This is the sequel where things can be improved.

 

If you are just looking for a good time without thinking play whack-a-mole or something. This is an RPG NOT an FPS. Where actions are supposed to have direct repercussions and what you do should change the game world. You should have to do your best to avoid conflict to remain LS. It is more true to Star Wars. Let me say once again just to be clear there is a time to fight. And killing to save yourself and friends is perfectly acceptable even to an LS character. But choosing every time to walk in the front door of a Sith military base and start swinging or telling everyone "Open the door or die" is LOOKING for a fight which WILL lead to the dark side. It is too aggressive. Even Luke first tries to reason with Jabba.

 

This is all my opinion too and no you have not offended me.

[Chemix]

I'm just saying the simpler option of just going to ur objective and slicing any one who tries to kill u, the game doesn't know if ur going off looking to kill sith for some odd reason. The alternate options should be available and grant EXP, but what should tell the game to give u EXP at that time? The option to do things the simple way should not always be the evil way. Theres a difference between making the DS more apealing and the LS more long run rewarding and making the DS for simple fighters and the LS for intellegent stealth based characters.

 

Note I am not saying no to intellegent options, I'm saying no to intellegent options being limited to LS and Simple stuff being limited to DS.

[Shdy314]

I'm just saying the simpler option of just going to ur objective and slicing any one who tries to kill u, the game doesn't know if ur going off looking to kill sith for some odd reason. The alternate options should be available and grant EXP, but what should tell the game to give u EXP at that time? The option to do things the simple way should not always be the evil way. Theres a difference between making the DS more apealing and the LS more long run rewarding and making the DS for simple fighters and the LS for intellegent stealth based characters.

 

Note I am not saying no to intellegent options, I'm saying no to intellegent options being limited to LS and Simple stuff being limited to DS.

Going to your objective and slicing anyone that gets in your way is stupid, unrealistic and a little DS. The game SHOULD recognize the way you are playing the game. Doing things the simple way IS ALWAYS the evil way. When is the good way ever easier? Unless you're dealing with an intrinsically good situation(like helping orphans) then a DS character may have to work harder to turn it to their advantage in some evil way but otherwise simple always equates to evil. At least in SW. That is why it is so easy to slip to the DS.

 

Simple. Don't give XP for anything but quests. The LS is not going be more rewarding in the long run except for the warm fuzzy feeling you get helping people and knowing that people look up to and respect your virtue. I hate how people think if they do something the hard way they deserve some kind of greater reward at the end.

 

What I am proposing in no way means all LS characters need high stealth skill. notice in my examples I mention things like using dominate mind or disarming opponents with pull and push. Give us subdual damage! so we can knock people out. Both LS and DS players should go intelligently through the Sith base. But DS players will be willing to kill more and the option is simply better for them not LIMITED to them.

 

You are limiting your imagination. When I say sneak through a base I am not saying everytime turning on your stealth field and walking around I am talking about Dominate Mind, disguises etc.

 

You seem to be saying no to intelligent options since you keep saying quests should be kept so simple a 5 year old can do them and the player should be able to do them without any kind of penalty. If you put in tons of kewl advanced options but then make sure there is always some super simple (though unrealistic) and super quick option 99% of players are going to do it the simple way. Like security. Should be a kewl skill to have except then to "keep it simple" you can bash open any thing with any weapon without any kind of penalty. So why use security?

[Chemix]

if the intellegent option is more fun, they will play it, the goal of a game is to be fun. The more fun a video game is, the more will buy it. If everyones forced to do complicated quests to get EXP, it will be way harder to level up. Another thing to think about, how can the game do this? The game has limitations

[Shdy314]

if the intellegent option is more fun, they will play it, the goal of a game is to be fun. The more fun a video game is, the more will buy it. If everyones forced to do complicated quests to get EXP, it will be way harder to level up. Another thing to think about, how can the game do this? The game has limitations

No they won't. People will choose the simple way. The goal of a game is to be fun but RPGs are held to a higher standard than just that. People judge the dialogues, endings, quests, NPCs and reactions much more harshly than they do in FPS games.

 

Actually the thing people ask for most in RPGs is more complicated quests. People find using subterfuge and spending an hour on a quest starting an interstellar war much more satisfying than "fight your way to the bottom level of a 50 level dungeon and grab the dagger of who cares and bring it back to me for your reward. Or deliver this letter for me to the next city over." That is boring. Realistic, involved complex quests with big payoffs/repercussions are much more fun. Which quest is more fun? Finding and completing the Genoharadan quests or doing the Star Forge on Dantooine? I think most will say the Genoharadan stuff was much more fun.

 

How can the game recognize when you are killing every single Sith trooper in the game? I don't know much about programming or anything but I have to believe there is a way for the game to know this. Anyways I dont really care if we get some DS points for it. I will simply settle for ALARMS and guards having back up etc. so it is more annoying to have to fight your way through. As long as combat doesn't give XP.

[ichpokhudezh]

if the intellegent option is more fun, they will play it, the goal of a game is to be fun. The more fun a video game is, the more will buy it. If everyones forced to do complicated quests to get EXP, it will be way harder to level up. Another thing to think about, how can the game do this? The game has limitations

Well, Chemix, I and, most probably, sales staff is with you on this one. Hack and slash sell better.

But it would be nice to have alternative (to pure violence) ways to solve quests.

And while I don't think DS should become as menacing as it is in the d20, but an option for a 'rpg-esque' style when you start out clean, get DSP for each new DS force power you've used or evil act committed and have to give up an attribute point to remove a DSP would be quite welcome, imo.

No LSP, plz.

[Darkfire]

Well, Chemix, I and, most probably, sales staff is with you on this one. Hack and slash sell better.

Lets face it though people often aren't given the option to try less 'hack and slash' RPGs. Those that exist normally have terrible graphics, a nasty interface or rule set and are poorly advertised. All of these things don't sell very well.

 

Maybe KOTOR2 can change that view by having some 'clever' options other than 'hack and slash' all the time...

[Chemix]

Optional being the key point. These smart ways should be optional. A game that forces u to do things the hard way all the time to remain a good guy just gets excessively anoying/ dull. Espescialy for the simple player. I like the challenge of being stealthy, sneaking through areas, and doing such but at the same time I enjoy a saber fight here and there. I'm all for these other options, but making hack and slash for the most part lead to the DS is rediculous. I agree with ichpokhudezh for the most part except on the force powers part. Mabey force choking docking bay people would give DS points or using it on innocent civilians to get some credits. But DS powers in general shouldn't give DS points, mabey a certain realy realy evil power should give loads when used. This is all just my opinion ofcourse

[Shdy314]

DS powers by their very name should give DS points dontcha think.

That's how it is in SW D20. A game many people have played and enjoyed despite the difficulties of playing LS. You keep saying a game that makes it hard to be LS would be annoying but SW D20 makes it very hard to be LS and is still a lot of fun. Sorry, but being LS is supposed to be hard. Everything in the SW mythos shows it being hard. And KOTOR 2 should reflect this. Otherwise just go play Jedi Power Battles (Fun if you play with more than one person). Not every game has to be a simple hack and slash to be enjoyable.

[Gorth]

You could almost get the impression that people are using babelfish or some other software when translating Role Playing Game...

 

It is actually intentional, that it is different term from First Person Shooters, Shoot'em ups, Beat'em ups, Hanck'n slash, Adventure games etc.

 

If people wants something different, by all means go and get it. I just don't understand all the preaching for turning each and every other game genre into ones personal genre (not that I don't have unflattering suspicions )

 

I'm currently too lazy to write up the 250+ lines of text on what makes a crpg a crpg, even too lazy to point to the 10+ threads with similar, often heated discussions.

 

Guys, if you don't like crpgs, but prefer other types of games, why come here in the first place ?

 

It's not as if there has been a lot of quality crpgs released the last 5 years. Definitely not enough to flood the market or piss off those who enjoy other types of games.

 

Give me just a few good crpgs the odd year or so, then other people can play action rpgs, hack'n slash rpgs, martial arts rpgs, combat rpgs etc. all they want. B)

[Chemix]

because though I do like FPS better I am a KOTOR fan and wish for kotor 2, even though aparently lacking in storyline, to be a fun game, therefor I add my suggestions to these suggestion topics and ect... I don't think of powers as dark and light, it's how u use them. Some are offencive some are defencive. I've never realy heard of D20 until posts on biowares boards and still know very little of what it is. What precisely is it? If u don't mind my asking of course. U have to remember that while it may be hard in books to remain LS, this is a computer game, not a novel, the player, plays the game to enjoy himself. Hack and Slash with the optional "intellegent" route is fine, but being forced the play the hard way all the time or get DS points. It's restrictive in a computer game to force people to play ur way or be DS. Going DS should require doing sinister acts, not self defence. LS shouldn't be extremely hard. After all it's a computer game and some people will want a nice LS ending while still beating the crap out of every sith they can find.

[Gorth]

What used to be a part of crpgs (and probably also rpgs) is, that you, the player identify with your character in the game. I've played through Kotor 5 times now. All combinations of sex and alignment, one of them once more just for good measure (a copycat of my first run through).

 

I had a hard time identifying with my "evil" characters, part because of the poor way "evil" was defined, part because it conflicted with my RL nature. The first part is poor design, but the second part is what makes the game challenging. It gives you the opportunity to do other things than what you would normally do. It doesn't have to be easy. If the game has an option for a player to pick the easy, darkside path or the hard, lightside path, no problem. All the more challenging, and all the more accoring to the Star Wars universe where the dark side is described as the "easy" solution to some problems, at a high cost later. Lightsiders will always feel "constrained" compared to darksiders, if for no other reason, then because they impose some moral values upon themselves. If jedis had started a systematic hunt for and genocide of Siths after one of their victories, the galaxy wouldn't really have changed much, for the jedi would have become the Sith, namechange or not.

 

If the game were to ship with a hard light side path and an easier dark side path, I would still play though both paths for the challenge of it.

 

As for the combat, twitch vs. non-twitch games. Two different interests. Some people likes lots of combat and wants it to be determined by the skill of the player (not the player character, but the player behind the keyboard), others (me included) appreciates the other parts of the game more. And when it comes to combat, we like to have our player characters stats, skills, feats and some dice rolls influence the outcome, not how fast we can move our fingers on the keys

[Chemix]

Ur forgetting that this isn't a novel, this is a computer game, people have varried interests. I don't think everyone wants to be DS just because they don't stealth belt through things or always try to find an alternate route. This is merely my opinion though

[Shdy314]

Ur forgetting that this isn't a novel, this is a computer game, people have varried interests. I don't think everyone wants to be DS just because they don't stealth belt through things or always try to find an alternate route. This is merely my opinion though

Just like a novel some people will enjoy a game and some people won't. I'm sorry if you don't want to be DS just because you don't play it the way an LS Jedi would BUT that's the way it works. Or should work. I have varied interests too. I own Half-Life and I own BG. I expect two very different experiences from them. From the former I expect fairly shallow stories and characters with lots of fun challenging combat. But from the latter I am looking for a strong story, a PC I create, repercussions in dialogue, quests, rewards etc. for what I do Blah Blah you get the idea.

 

If you havent played RPGs much before why not take the word of people that have probably played way too many and see how you like playing a game with intelligent gameplay and difficult moral choices. I am not saying you need to stealth every time every where. Ive already said many times there is a time and a place for combat but for LS Jedi combat is to be avoided. Jedi aren't warriors. I know they are at war but they do not seek out situations where they are forced to kill. This is why they have so many powers. The lightsaber is supposed to be the last resort.

 

Ive already said that you should get some DS points for being so bloodthirsty HOWEVER I also accepted this would probably be hard to show in a CRPG. So I would settle for repercussions for not playing it smart. LIKE ALARMS that spawn in a whole lot of enemies with no XP or items gained from killing them. So there. No DS points. Now you are encouraged to play it smart but you can still remain LS even if you don't.

 

Oh by the way stop saying stealth belt. My very first post says how the belt should be gotten rid of.

[Bantha Fodder]

Fixing the Treat Injury problem: Treat Injury should be more powerful by adding say an extra 5VP per point to the medipack. Medipacks were to numerous in KOTOR, less should be avalable in the late game making them more valuable. Force heal should take alot of FP to use, making player have to wait longer between healing.

[Darth Sun_Tzu]

I just read a preview in PC Gamer, which said that there would be more side quests that are only available if you have a certain skill. It also said that if you have a high treat injury skill this will affect the diolog when speaking to dotors/medics!!!

[Bantha Fodder]

I just read a preview in PC Gamer, which said that there would be more side quests that are only available if you have a certain skill. It also said that if you have a high treat injury skill this will affect the diolog when speaking to dotors/medics!!!

Sounds pretty cool!

[Chemix]

U see unlike a novel, this is a computer designed to apeal to a vast group of people, with all sorts of different interests. I still think enemies should give EXP. Ur making leveling up rely alot on people playing ur style of playing. How about when u attack a large group of people one will go and try to set off an alarm and if u stop them from getting there one way or another. Being LS is hard in the books and the movies, however u can't realy portray it so harshly in a game.

[Shdy314]

U see unlike a novel, this is a computer designed to apeal to a vast group of people, with all sorts of different interests. I still think enemies should give EXP. Ur making leveling up rely alot on people playing ur style of playing. How about when u attack a large group of people one will go and try to set off an alarm and if u stop them from getting there one way or another. Being LS is hard in the books and the movies, however u can't realy portray it so harshly in a game.

A novel isn't aimed at two people Chemix.

 

No I am making XP rely solely on completion of quests. How you choose to fulfill those quests is up to you. My "Way" is anything that is not overtly violent unless you want the DS points. Combat is still available to you but gives you no more benefits than using skills to get around does.

 

Why would he need to run to an alarm????? The comlink is right inside his helmet.

 

You can portray it harshly in the game and it should be portrayed the way it is always portrayed in SW. LS is hard.

[Darkfire]

I just read a preview in PC Gamer, which said that there would be more side quests that are only available if you have a certain skill. It also said that if you have a high treat injury skill this will affect the diolog when speaking to dotors/medics!!! 

I seem to remember that Fallout 2 had something like that...if you had a high doctor skill you could have quite a conversation with the doctor at Vault City. Had a few interesting things to do as well...nothing Earth shattering but a nice touch to the depth count.

[Chemix]

the question is can u harshly portray it and have it remain fun. Remember this should be fun for many people not just a few

[sniggy]

did this one come up?

 

i repaired lots of stuff just to sell it- well, not in kotor but in some other game. in fallout, you could repair various stuff (mostly some wells ;-) to get money or thanks (meaning: experience)

 

that would be a nice use of the skill.

 

"thank you human, i couldn't have paid for that repair... blahblahblah... here's my family heirloom... blahblahblah.... you're the saviour of the galax- uhhk... ahhkkkhh..."

 

(choke)