Melee/Ranged Accurcay

[Gairnulf]

Do these still exist as separate stats? They are shown as such in the wiki: http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Character_creation#Class but I don't see them anywhere ingame.

[anameforobsidian]

Accuracy was completely taken out of character creation in the latest build afaik.  The team said it was too powerful.  Pretty sure there's one universal accuracy stat and its still there under the hood.

Edited February 19, 2015 by anameforobsidian

[BMac]

That is correct, though melee and ranged accuracy can be modified individually by abilities or effects.  Right now they are not visible in a raw form, but they are factored into the accuracy display on the Inventory and Character Sheet based on whether you are using a ranged or melee weapon.

[Luckmann]

As far as I'm aware, no, there is no separation between Melee and Ranged Accuracy any more.

For better or worse.

I'm thinking "worse", because while it was good that it was condensed to "Accuracy" for the purpose of classes, keeping them separate would've been good for Talents, Abilities and bonuses where you simply might not want to give bonus to all Accuracy.

 

[Luckmann]

Ach, ninja'd by BMac and my previous post is in the moderator queue, so I can't edit.
 

That is correct, though melee and ranged accuracy can be modified individually by abilities or effects.  Right now they are not visible in a raw form, but they are factored into the accuracy display on the Inventory and Character Sheet based on whether you are using a ranged or melee weapon.

 

You should really consider making them display as separate everywhere, just for clarity, instead of the interface opting on what to show based on what you're wielding. Then you could simply state the modifiers to Accuracy as "All Accuracy", "Melee Accuracy" and "Ranged Accuracy" (so we'd know what modifiers which).

[Luckmann]

Especially since a lot of weapons already add +Accuracy by default, which may make it harder for people to figure out just what Accuracy they actually have under certain circumstances with various weapons or abilities other than that specific weapon they just equipped just to check their Ranged (or Melee) Accuracy specifically.

Really, just list both.

And yes, I realize I just triple-posted, but it's not my fault.

[Gairnulf]

That is correct, though melee and ranged accuracy can be modified individually by abilities or effects.  Right now they are not visible in a raw form, but they are factored into the accuracy display on the Inventory and Character Sheet based on whether you are using a ranged or melee weapon.

So there is no way to see the initial melee/ranged accuracy for a class, apart from starting a game with a given class and checking his accuracy in the character sheet first with a melee then with a ranged weapon? I'm asking because the two types of accuracy are not visible during character creation, and I want to update the wiki with their current base values.

[Sensuki]

Accuracy isn't actually that good anymore. They went way overboard with removing it from attributes and nerfing the crit damage. Now, the best thing about accuracy is less misses. They also made the change before changes to damage calculation were made.

 

Now, with the new changes - Might actually increases your graze damage by a fair bit, as opposed to before, and stacking damage multipliers (especially from item enchantments) will give you a lot more DPS in combat than bumping Accuracy. Crits only give x1.25 now I think, which is less than what an Exceptional Quality item or a Damaging 2 enchantment will give.
 

It's a shame, because all they really needed to do to balance it was drop it back to +1 per point and fix the damage calc.

 

If you're a weapon-user you can build for super damage with weapons, but the removal of accuracy screws over casters, because casters will never have as good accuracy as weapon users because weapons have talents that give them bonuses, and they can be enchanted. Spells/Abilities cannot.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[Gairnulf]

Thanks, but my question is with regards to how I should edit the Character creation page and possibly other pages in the wiki.

 

I think we could use a "Combat Resolution" page with easy to understand examples.

[Sensuki]

Yeah, wiki is out of date. There's an "Attack Resolution" page though right? You could just add the info there.

[Gairnulf]

There is this nice table in Character creation though, and it has columns for Melee and Ranged accuracy. I guess they have changed since they were put in, but I wonder how can I see them. If I start a new game with a given class, equip a melee weapon, check the accuracy stat in the Inventory or Character window, then equip a ranged weapon and check the accuracy stat again, will that do?

I guess if the weapon doesn't have any special abilities that add to accuracy, just equipping it will show the base values for the class, right?

Edited February 19, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Gairnulf]

From a quick test, Melee and Ranged Accuracy seem to start with equal values, contrary to what it says in the wiki.

 

A question for BMac or any developer who can answer - how do Ranged and Melee accuracy values progress when characters level up - in the character creation interface it says, for example "Accuracy: 30 + 3/Level (High)".

 

First, this is sort of misleading, because the "per level" additions come only after the first level-up, i.e. from level 2 onward. So, maybe it should have been "27 + 3/Level".

 

Second, which "accuracy" is this "30"? Is it my Ranged or Melee accuracy. If the starting values for Ranged and Melee are different, then do they progress differently when I level up, and how do they progress?

 

When I removed my lvl 4 BB Fighter's weapons the Inventory window was showing "Primary: 39" and "Secondary: 39" which was apparently his main hand and off hand in the active weapon set. When I gave him a Fine War Bow, its accuracy bonus seemed to have been added to the same value of 39, because the accuracy value in the Inventory window became 43. This means that the Ranged and Melee accuracy values were the same - 39. Could you explain all of this in more detail? If all the classes' accuracy values for melee and ranged are the same, then I should delete the extra-column in the wiki and just go with one accuracy value.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Ark Evensong]

Unified base / class accuracy has been a thing for a couple of beta versions now. Start at the same number, increase by the same number per level. So go ahead and yank out that second column.

 

And sure, you're probably right. Could say it should be 27+3*level instead of 30+3*level, but I think under the hood it's more like 30+3*(level-1). Doesn't really matter, though. Whatever looks nicer.

[Gairnulf]

Yep, I've already started rewriting the table.

[BMac]

I think you guys have got it.  There is only a single value for class base accuracy, and attributes modify the value equally as well - the values only diverge when you start getting special abilities that may only affect melee or ranged attacks.

[Luckmann]

I think you guys have got it.  There is only a single value for class base accuracy, and attributes modify the value equally as well - the values only diverge when you start getting special abilities that may only affect melee or ranged attacks.

 

I first read this wrong, so just to be clear:

• For the purposes of individual classes, there's only a single Accuracy value (which differs based on class).
• In practice, under the hood, Ranged Accuracy and Melee Accuracy are separate, and may be modified individually by weapons, equipment, or talents (and theoretically, Attributes, etc).
• On the Character Record screen, only a single Accuracy value is presented, dependant on what weapon(s) you have equipped.

If I got that right, I really have to ask;

1. Why not present these individual values separately on the Character Record, to avoid confusion? Otherwise, you have to juggle weapon sets around to even know what your Accuracy "really" is.
2. When it comes to Abilities and (especially) Spells, how do you know which value is being used? Say I find an amulet of +5 Ranged Accuracy (a staple of the genre, pretty much) - will this help a Wizard at all? And if it's Ranged Accuracy (which would make the most sense for most Spells/Abilities, I would assume), again, will I be forced to carry a ranged weapon just to see my correct Accuracy score? In one of the previews/trailers, Aloth even started with a sword, so it would be counter-intuative to give him a Sword, but to see his "actual" Accuracy with his spells, you have to get him a ranged weapon (just as an example).

Also, in the future, it might be double relevant to list both, because there may be weapons that can perform both as ranged and in melee, like Daggers/Axes in Baldur's Gate II. Throwing weapons (along with ammunition, etc) have been an oft-requested feature, so just in the interest of future-proofing the Character screen, you might also want to list them separately.

[Gairnulf]

There is only a single value for class base accuracy

the values only diverge when you start getting special abilities that may only affect melee or ranged attacks.

Which one of these is true? If "values diverge", how can there be a "single value"? I don't understand.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Luckmann]

 

There is only a single value for class base accuracy

the values only diverge when you start getting special abilities that may only affect melee or ranged attacks.

Which one of these is true? If "values diverge", how can there be a "single value"? I don't understand.

 

 

You probably misread it as I did at first. What he's saying is that there's only a single value for Class BASE Accuracy.

 

Basically, a class receives the same Base Melee Accuracy as Ranged Accuracy. For the purposes of Class, there's only one Accuracy value.

 

Does that make sense to you? I'm not sure if I explained it right.

[Gorbag]

^ I think it goes like this: you get accuracy X applied to melee and ranged attacks. Everything that affects accuracy, affects this value, but if you have the "Legolas with an M40" ability, you get X+10 accuracy for ranged and X for melee.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Gorbag

[Gairnulf]

^ I think it goes like this: you get accuracy X applied to melee and ranged attacks. Everything that affects accuracy, affects this value, but if you have the "Legolas with an M40" ability, you get X+10 accuracy for ranged and X for melee.

But this is the same as having a "Fine Warbow" bonus of +4 Accuracy, isn't it?

Edited February 20, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Gorbag]

 

^ I think it goes like this: you get accuracy X applied to melee and ranged attacks. Everything that affects accuracy, affects this value, but if you have the "Legolas with an M40" ability, you get X+10 accuracy for ranged and X for melee.

But this is the same as having a "Fine Warbow" bonus of +4 Accuracy, isn't it?

Yes, but with "Fine Warbow" you might as well increase the general value, as there is no possible scenario where you can equip it and gain its bonus in melee.

[BMac]

 

I think you guys have got it.  There is only a single value for class base accuracy, and attributes modify the value equally as well - the values only diverge when you start getting special abilities that may only affect melee or ranged attacks.

 

I first read this wrong, so just to be clear:

• For the purposes of individual classes, there's only a single Accuracy value (which differs based on class).
• In practice, under the hood, Ranged Accuracy and Melee Accuracy are separate, and may be modified individually by weapons, equipment, or talents (and theoretically, Attributes, etc).
• On the Character Record screen, only a single Accuracy value is presented, dependant on what weapon(s) you have equipped.

If I got that right, I really have to ask;

1. Why not present these individual values separately on the Character Record, to avoid confusion? Otherwise, you have to juggle weapon sets around to even know what your Accuracy "really" is.
2. When it comes to Abilities and (especially) Spells, how do you know which value is being used? Say I find an amulet of +5 Ranged Accuracy (a staple of the genre, pretty much) - will this help a Wizard at all? And if it's Ranged Accuracy (which would make the most sense for most Spells/Abilities, I would assume), again, will I be forced to carry a ranged weapon just to see my correct Accuracy score? In one of the previews/trailers, Aloth even started with a sword, so it would be counter-intuative to give him a Sword, but to see his "actual" Accuracy with his spells, you have to get him a ranged weapon (just as an example).

Also, in the future, it might be double relevant to list both, because there may be weapons that can perform both as ranged and in melee, like Daggers/Axes in Baldur's Gate II. Throwing weapons (along with ammunition, etc) have been an oft-requested feature, so just in the interest of future-proofing the Character screen, you might also want to list them separately.

 

 

This is correct, sorry for any confusing wording!

 

That change is on my list, but there's a lot of other stuff to do, too.  In practice, juggling will still be required in a lot of cases because the weapons themselves will have inherent accuracy bonuses from Fine and whatnot.  Perhaps we should include accuracy on the comparison tooltips instead.

 

Interestingly, spells can use either melee or ranged accuracy depending on whether the spell happens to be melee (Concelhaut's Draining Touch) or ranged (Minoletta's Minor Missiles).  Probably we should display an "effective accuracy" value on the tooltips for those, too.

[Luckmann]

 

 

I think you guys have got it.  There is only a single value for class base accuracy, and attributes modify the value equally as well - the values only diverge when you start getting special abilities that may only affect melee or ranged attacks.

 

I first read this wrong, so just to be clear:

• For the purposes of individual classes, there's only a single Accuracy value (which differs based on class).
• In practice, under the hood, Ranged Accuracy and Melee Accuracy are separate, and may be modified individually by weapons, equipment, or talents (and theoretically, Attributes, etc).
• On the Character Record screen, only a single Accuracy value is presented, dependant on what weapon(s) you have equipped.

If I got that right, I really have to ask;

1. Why not present these individual values separately on the Character Record, to avoid confusion? Otherwise, you have to juggle weapon sets around to even know what your Accuracy "really" is.
2. When it comes to Abilities and (especially) Spells, how do you know which value is being used? Say I find an amulet of +5 Ranged Accuracy (a staple of the genre, pretty much) - will this help a Wizard at all? And if it's Ranged Accuracy (which would make the most sense for most Spells/Abilities, I would assume), again, will I be forced to carry a ranged weapon just to see my correct Accuracy score? In one of the previews/trailers, Aloth even started with a sword, so it would be counter-intuative to give him a Sword, but to see his "actual" Accuracy with his spells, you have to get him a ranged weapon (just as an example).

Also, in the future, it might be double relevant to list both, because there may be weapons that can perform both as ranged and in melee, like Daggers/Axes in Baldur's Gate II. Throwing weapons (along with ammunition, etc) have been an oft-requested feature, so just in the interest of future-proofing the Character screen, you might also want to list them separately.

 

 

This is correct, sorry for any confusing wording!

 

That change is on my list, but there's a lot of other stuff to do, too.  In practice, juggling will still be required in a lot of cases because the weapons themselves will have inherent accuracy bonuses from Fine and whatnot.  Perhaps we should include accuracy on the comparison tooltips instead.

 

Interestingly, spells can use either melee or ranged accuracy depending on whether the spell happens to be melee (Concelhaut's Draining Touch) or ranged (Minoletta's Minor Missiles).  Probably we should display an "effective accuracy" value on the tooltips for those, too.

 

 

Or, if/when you get around to adding both Ranged Accuracy and Melee Accuracy to the Character Sheet, just mention what Accuracy it uses. But yeah, Effective Accuracy for the tooltips is probably the minimum necessary, because otherwise I think people are going to be confused.

[Sensuki]

Perhaps we should include accuracy on the comparison tooltips instead.

 

That would actually be fairly annoying, because it's one of those things you like to see immediately when you equip something. I'd prefer if it stayed on the main sheet.

 

I don't necessarily agree that Melee and Ranged Accuracy *have* to be shown separately, because the things that give bonuses to either do not come from weapons - but situational things - like Marskman, to qualify for the +5 bonus you need to be a certain distance away. The Reckless Assault bonus would show if you had a melee weapon equipped, but it wouldn't, if you had a ranged weapon equipped.

 

You can't actually get the bonus to Melee or Ranged Accuracy if you don't have a melee or ranged weapon equipped, or qualify for the thing that gives the bonus - therefore I don't see the need to have two values for it. 

 

Luckmann doesn't have the beta so I don't believe he's played it to understand the difference.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Gairnulf]

You can't actually get the bonus to Melee or Ranged Accuracy if you don't have a melee or ranged weapon equipped, or qualify for the thing that gives the bonus - therefore I don't see the need to have two values for it.

I was going to post something like this in my last post - since you can only equip either a melee or a ranged weapon in a weapon set at any one time, you only need to see your accuracy with the currently equipped weapon in the inventory screen. Your character sheet in that case should show either both your current accuracy values - base value for the accuracy of the type of which you don't have an equipped weapon, and the current accuracy of the type of which you have an equipped weapon, after modifiers.

 

This would make the character sheet behave similar to how it was in the IE games, but I think it would be better if the Character sheet only shows base values, and the Inventory screen only shows the 'effective' value, after modifiers.

 

I also think it's better on the main sheet. It's where most people will expect to see a stat. But I'm sure you'll discuss this within the team and come up with a good solution.