11 people killed at a French satirical Newspaper

[Rostere]

Based on your replies, would you guys say that Sweden has a succesful immigration policy from islamic countries? And how would you say that Sweden have succeeded and France has failed in this?

 

Very hard to say on the first question. I would like to see much more vetting of immigrants for undemocratic values (like the test for new American citizens, but without the idiotic history part), and more money for integration projects putting people into work. A good day's hard work is the best cure for any sort of shenanigans. The devil finds work for idle hands and all that. Otherwise I think it's pretty much OK.

 

France has a LOT more Muslims than Sweden does - about double as much in percent I think. That's because they were an imperialist power, which held pieces of Muslim countries as their own and taught them French. White man's burden, y'know? The Muslims are only karma's messenger.

 

 

Finally, do you guys see the same level of threat of terrorism compared to France and what measures have Sweden taken to lessen/avoid this?

 

No (although the level is not negligible). Measures of mass surveillance. There should be more "vetting" of who gets to move here and more police cooperation with mosques - both to prevent islamophobic violence and to detect radicals.

[Marcvs Caesar]

Based on your replies, would you guys say that Sweden has a succesful immigration policy from islamic countries? And how would you say that Sweden have succeeded and France has failed in this?

 

Finally, do you guys see the same level of threat of terrorism compared to France and what measures have Sweden taken to lessen/avoid this?

 

I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to law, government policies, etc. But I've always wondered why there's so much immigration into EU from non-EU countries. Shouldn't the free movement of people be only available to the countries that signed the Schengen agreement?

I would love to have a borderless, country-less world but until we do Europe should be more strict in its immigration laws.

[Rostere]

 

 

Islam should be banned, some religions have been banned for less and it is obvious the violence won't stop anytime soon.

It will secularize, and then disappear, just like Christianity.

 

 

I doubt I will still be alive to see it by then, if it happens. Throughout history the agressive religions have been the successful ones, and there's no religious doctrine more agressive than Islam that's for sure.

 

The meaningless slaughter will continue until something is done.

 

99% of everyone who is killed by Muslim radicals are Muslims themselves. The West as a whole has suffered negligible (I'd almost say none at all) damage to to Islamic terrorism - ridiculously little compared to how much we read about it in the news. Islamic radicalism is essentially the Muslim world punching itself in the face. There are no Muslim countries capable of taking a fight to any of the major world powers anyhow. Sometimes people say that IS is a "threat" but that's frankly absurd.

 

Christianity has historically been a more aggressive religion than Islam for the last 1000 years, but Christianity eventually secularized, giving birth to our civilization. Islam was pretty much the height of civilization from the 800s to the 1300s (discounting China). That is when Islam meant freedom for other religions and modern (at the time) values. The liberal and secular centre of the world.

 

The only thing that's an advantage for Islam is their relatively high birth rate in civilized countries. This is in part due to the culture of immigrants and in part due to their low social standing. It will be interesting to see how it looks in 30 years. It will have lowered, the question is how much. If Islam is able to resist assimilation better than the birthrate lowers, we might see a future Islamic (but secular) Europe. Meanwhile, much of Western culture is focused on short-sighted egoism and not building families. That is not the hallmark of a culture that is fit to survive.

 

At least in Sweden the assimilation rate is very high. The Kurds and other people who are "technically Muslim" are about as religious as I am, that is, not at all.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Rostere

[Marcvs Caesar]

 

 

 

Islam should be banned, some religions have been banned for less and it is obvious the violence won't stop anytime soon.

It will secularize, and then disappear, just like Christianity.

 

 

I doubt I will still be alive to see it by then, if it happens. Throughout history the agressive religions have been the successful ones, and there's no religious doctrine more agressive than Islam that's for sure.

 

The meaningless slaughter will continue until something is done.

 

99% of everyone who is killed by Muslim radicals are Muslims themselves. The West as a whole has suffered negligible (I'd almost say none at all) damage to to Islamic terrorism - ridiculously little compared to how much we read about it in the news. Islamic radicalism is essentially the Muslim world punching itself in the face. There are no Muslim countries capable of taking a fight to any of the major world powers.

 

Christianity has historically been a more aggressive religion than Islam for the last 1000 years, but Christianity eventually secularized, giving birth to our civilization. Islam was pretty much the height of civilization from the 800s to the 1300s (discounting China). That is when Islam meant freedom for other religions and modern (at the time) values. The liberal and secular centre of the world.

 

The only thing that's an advantage for Islam is their relatively high birth rate in civilized countries. This is in part due to the culture of immigrants and in part due to their low social standing. It will be interesting to see how it looks in 30 years. It will have lowered, the question is how much. If Islam is able to resist assimilation better than the birthrate lowers, we might see a future Islamic (but secular) Europe. Meanwhile, much of Western culture is focused on short-sighted egoism and not building families. That is not the hallmark of a culture that is fit to survive.

 

At least in Sweden the assimilation rate is very high. The Kurds and other people who are "technically Muslim" are about as religious as I am, that is, none at all.

 

 

You're exaggerating, the damage done to the western nations might be relatively very low (still higher than what I consider acceptable) but it is certainly not negligible.

 

Yes, I was aware of that. But it was largely due to the development of science, increase in education and, something that isn't often considered, our Hellenistic (ancient Greek, Roman) heritage that largely contributed to it. Even though the muslims living in developed countries have access to decent education... well at least in Europe and Japan, many, if not most, still cling to their archaic beliefs.

 

Don't even joke about that, living under Islamism or in an islamic society, even if secularized, would be one of the worst things that could happen to me. Their dogma goes against everything I like about human civilization.

 

[Rostere]

You're exaggerating, the damage done to the western nations might be relatively very low (still higher than what I consider acceptable) but it is certainly not negligible.

 

No, I'm not exaggerating. How much has Islamic terror hurt Western economies? Nothing. How many people has it killed? Less than toaster-induced incidents has (can't find the link now).

 

 

Yes, I was aware of that. But it was largely due to the development of science, increase in education and, something that isn't often considered, our Hellenistic (ancient Greek, Roman) heritage that largely contributed to it. Even though the muslims living in developed countries have access to decent education... well at least in Europe and Japan, many, if not most, still cling to their archaic beliefs.

 

Oh please, not the Greek/Roman heritage thing again. That's among the worst bull**** you ever get to hear. Secondly, the Islamic culture builds as much - or as little - on the Greco-Roman as ours does, at least in all ways that matter. And in any case the Greeks (Classical Greece - through the Mycenaeans) owe as much/little to previous/other Mediterranean civilizations as we do to them.

 

Read Plato's Republic, the writings/thoughts of Aristotle or any of those old works yourself and draw your conclusions. Nothing much to be salvaged there - nothing which wouldn't have been gained otherwise, nothing which has truly guided Western civilization in a positive way during our golden age. Disclaimer here: Euclid was a pretty solid guy and is probably worth reading still today for secondary school students.

 

Certainly the Romans/Greeks represent high civilization during their glory days, but it's a gross misunderstanding to claim that they were culturally distinct in a unique and superior way to other comparable cultures.

 

I haven't seen any "modern and successful" Muslims clinging to old beliefs. None.

 

 

Don't even joke about that, living under Islamism or in an islamic society, even if secularized, would be one of the worst things that could happen to me. Their dogma goes against everything I like about human civilization.

 

Islam will change. When Muslims move to Europe they are throwing themselves on the spear of secularism. The most powerful and influential Muslims during the next 100 years (discounting political leaders) will all be secular European or American Muslims. The Islam that eventually maybe will dominate Europe is not the same as the one we see today.

 

In any case, it's all a matter of population statistics. Poor and conservative people always get more children. The less conflicts we have in the ME, the more secular and modern their society will become and the less immigrants we will have in Europe. IMO the war in Iraq, Syria, instability in Somalia and French occupation of Algeria is behind a lot of Muslim immigration to Europe today.

 

The key to solving both immigration and Islamic terror is simple: more stability and less wars in the ME and Africa. How can we build stability in these regions using non-violent means?

[Azdeus]

 but standing up and peeing is allowed, although there are some kindergartens that have been trying to make boys sit and pee (presumably good for avoiding problems with your prostate gland. I prefer to stand, tyvm).

 

The risk of them missing the bowl is infinitely smaller than when sitting aswell. Something that seems to be a common problem throughout the ages to be fair. Atleast a friend in daycare mentioned this when it was brought up, never has it been about a feminist agenda.

 

I'm all for it, I hate seeing those "mysterious" wetspots infront of the toilet.

 

I have walked through one of these areas (Husby) repeatedly at about 0300 dressed neatly and nothing has ever happened to me...

 

Working with removing grafitti and gangmarkers I quite often got attacked with nasty mean words. ;_;

[Rostere]

LOL, how many of our forum members have lived/live in Sweden, really? Seems like there is an awful lot of us. We should totally have a release party for PoE.

[Azdeus]

LOL, how many of our forum members have lived/live in Sweden, really? Seems like there is an awful lot of us. We should totally have a release party for PoE.

 

Would've been fun to meet new people, but I'm not part of the PoE kickstarter.

[Meshugger]

Very hard to say on the first question. I would like to see much more vetting of immigrants for undemocratic values (like the test for new American citizens, but without the idiotic history part), and more money for integration projects putting people into work. A good day's hard work is the best cure for any sort of shenanigans. The devil finds work for idle hands and all that. Otherwise I think it's pretty much OK.

 

France has a LOT more Muslims than Sweden does - about double as much in percent I think. That's because they were an imperialist power, which held pieces of Muslim countries as their own and taught them French. White man's burden, y'know? The Muslims are only karma's messenger.

 

No (although the level is not negligible). Measures of mass surveillance. There should be more "vetting" of who gets to move here and more police cooperation with mosques - both to prevent islamophobic violence and to detect radicals.

 

 

Whoa, having a hard time keeping up with the thread. Anyhow, here goes:

 

1) Ok, agree. Vetting at the border sounds about right.

2) "White man's burden, y'know? The Muslims are only karma's messenger". If it is that, then it should stop immidiately. **** that kind of self hating mumbo-jumbo.

3) I fear we lose some, if not all of what makes a western society open if start spying on ourselves (i am referring to the mass surveillance part)

[Rostere]

 

LOL, how many of our forum members have lived/live in Sweden, really? Seems like there is an awful lot of us. We should totally have a release party for PoE.

 

Would've been fun to meet new people, but I'm not part of the PoE kickstarter.

 

 

You can still pay for the game here: http://buy.pillarsofeternity.com/

 

If it is that, then it should stop immediately. **** that kind of self hating mumbo-jumbo.

 

Those who do not care about sentimental notions of nation or culture won't be affected.

 

Anyway I can assure you that I do not hate myself at all (in fact I love myself and believe that I am always right ), that is pure idiocy.

[Azdeus]

You can still pay for the game here: http://buy.pillarsofeternity.com/

 

I just need a job first

[Rostere]

 

You can still pay for the game here: http://buy.pillarsofeternity.com/

 

I just need a job first

 

What education do you have?

[Marcvs Caesar]

 

 

Yes, I was aware of that. But it was largely due to the development of science, increase in education and, something that isn't often considered, our Hellenistic (ancient Greek, Roman) heritage that largely contributed to it. Even though the muslims living in developed countries have access to decent education... well at least in Europe and Japan, many, if not most, still cling to their archaic beliefs.

 

Oh please, not the Greek/Roman heritage thing again. That's among the worst bull**** you ever get to hear. Secondly, the Islamic culture builds as much - or as little - on the Greco-Roman as ours does, at least in all ways that matter. And in any case the Greeks (Classical Greece - through the Mycenaeans) owe as much/little to previous/other Mediterranean civilizations as we do to them.

 

Read Plato's Republic, the writings/thoughts of Aristotle or any of those old works yourself and draw your conclusions. Nothing much to be salvaged there - nothing which wouldn't have been gained otherwise, nothing which has truly guided Western civilization in a positive way during our golden age. Disclaimer here: Euclid was a pretty solid guy and is probably worth reading still today for secondary school students.

 

Certainly the Romans/Greeks represent high civilization during their glory days, but it's a gross misunderstanding to claim that they were culturally distinct in a unique and superior way to other comparable cultures.

 

I haven't seen any "modern and successful" Muslims clinging to old beliefs. None.

 

 

I was thinking more on the terms of ideology and values, the greek and roman civilizations inspired many thinkers particularly after the early modern period. I think our modern western civilization exists in no small part thanks to our greco-roman heritage.

 

How familiar are you with the history of classical antiquity?

Edited January 14, 2015 by Marcvs Caesar

[Chilloutman]

Islam will change. When Muslims move to Europe they are throwing themselves on the spear of secularism. The most powerful and influential Muslims during the next 100 years (discounting political leaders) will all be secular European or American Muslims. The Islam that eventually maybe will dominate Europe is not the same as the one we see today.

 

I think there you hit a spot. Problem is that more muslims are in country - the less secular country it is. Just look at Endrogan in Turkey to see the pattern

[Rostere]

I was thinking more on the terms of ideology and values, the greek and roman civilizations inspired many thinkers particularly after the early modern period. I think our modern western civilization exists in no small part thanks to our greco-roman heritage.

 

This is the part I think is overrated. We would be just as well off with a Confucian heritage, say. In any case, any heritage is just the remains of a previous civilization. So you should not compare the Greco-Roman heritage with heritage from parts of the world which were not civilized at the time, but with comparable civilizations. At this point it becomes clear that there is nothing unique worth mentioning with the Greco-Roman heritage. There is only general civilization with some regional "flavour".

 

How familiar are you with greco-roman history?

 

Archaeology and anthropology used to be a hobby interest of mine. I also used to read copiously before I had better things to do. I have about 1 metre of books on ancient/classical civilizations. Most (I guess 70%) deal with the ME though, specifically Mesopotamia. Specifically dealing with Greeks and Romans I have a few works translated to English. I have Xenophon's "Anabasis" and "Germania" by Tacitus which are the ones I consider most important for my interests (because they are historical accounts of other civilizations). I also have a Classical Greek account on the Scythians which I can't seem to find at the moment. I have Platon's Dialogues and Suetonius' works and more - can't bother to look through all the books. I have also been to Rome and other archaeological sites in Italy to see Roman history first-hand.

 

So I'm not a scholar on this subject, but I consider myself well versed in their politics, philosophy, society and culture, apart from the area of Greek drama, where I have only read the stories in an abridged format.

 

 

Islam will change. When Muslims move to Europe they are throwing themselves on the spear of secularism. The most powerful and influential Muslims during the next 100 years (discounting political leaders) will all be secular European or American Muslims. The Islam that eventually maybe will dominate Europe is not the same as the one we see today.

I think there you hit a spot. Problem is that more muslims are in country - the less secular country it is. Just look at Endrogan Erdogan in Turkey to see the pattern

 

Yep - that's the current state of Islam. Believe me, the religion will change - it's inevitable. What we must do is try our hardest to make Western culture accessible to the Muslim world. It's a bit similar to the McDonald's theory of international relations. We must try to create a global, secular world culture to minimize tensions between different religions and races. Peace and secularism will have won the day that Westerners read Rumi and Muslims watch Game of Thrones and listen to Iron Maiden or Lady Gaga.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Rostere

[Chilloutman]

 

 

Islam will change. When Muslims move to Europe they are throwing themselves on the spear of secularism. The most powerful and influential Muslims during the next 100 years (discounting political leaders) will all be secular European or American Muslims. The Islam that eventually maybe will dominate Europe is not the same as the one we see today.

I think there you hit a spot. Problem is that more muslims are in country - the less secular country it is. Just look at Endrogan Erdogan in Turkey to see the pattern

 

Yep - that's the current state of Islam. Believe me, the religion will change - it's inevitable. What we must do is try our hardest to make Western culture accessible to the Muslim world. It's a bit similar to the McDonald's theory of international relations. We must try to create a global, secular world culture to minimize tensions between different religions and races. Peace and secularism will have won the day that Westerners read Rumi and Muslims watch Game of Thrones and listen to Iron Maiden or Lady Gaga.

 

 

 

Well but west is already welcoming to all religions which can accept secularism. And islam didnt change in islamic countries for last 100 years. West is accessible to anyone who is willing to accept humanism and if you are not, i dont know why are you trying to get here except to destroy it - then its not so suprising that someone is defending against it. How more accessible west can be? What do you think is so restricting for muslims to integrate? Why muslims can't watch game of thrones - do west somehow prohibid it?

[Rostere]

Well but west is already welcoming to all religions which can accept secularism. And islam didnt change in islamic countries for last 100 years. West is accessible to anyone who is willing to accept humanism and if you are not, i dont know why are you trying to get here except to destroy it - then its not so suprising that someone is defending against it.

 

But I already said I don't think we should accept immigrants who outright reject how we live. We should sent them right back.

 

Also, change is due the changing circumstances, it is not to be expected spontaneously. Christianity was also an enabler of barbaric crusades, torture and imperialism, but it changed too, as well. Nowadays it's just a haven for paedophiles, which HAS to be an improvement. The pope's throne was pretty much a corrupt, malign cancer during the Middle Ages. But that changed. Nowadays I almost like the pope.

 

 

How more accessible west can be? What do you think is so restricting for muslims to integrate? Why muslims can't watch game of thrones - do west somehow prohibid it?

 

The US blew I don't know how much on the war in Iraq, and that gained them nothing. It was a huge waste of money. Same with the war in Afghanistan - although that might have come with some small positives. I'm sure the Kurds would have wanted the Iraq war and it's aftermath again if they could choose though.

 

If you can waste such titanic amounts of money on nothing, I'm sure they could spend money to promote "intelligent" (that is, old-school) Islam among Muslims and create Western, secular media that would be appealing to Muslims, promote secular Western news channels in Arabic et.c.... The question is just how we can get someone to pay up for these psy-ops. Most politicians are not into playing the long game.

[Chilloutman]

 

Well but west is already welcoming to all religions which can accept secularism. And islam didnt change in islamic countries for last 100 years. West is accessible to anyone who is willing to accept humanism and if you are not, i dont know why are you trying to get here except to destroy it - then its not so suprising that someone is defending against it.

 

But I already said I don't think we should accept immigrants who outright reject how we live. We should sent them right back.

 

Also, change is due the changing circumstances, it is not to be expected spontaneously. Christianity was also an enabler of barbaric crusades, torture and imperialism, but it changed too, as well. Nowadays it's just a haven for paedophiles, which HAS to be an improvement. The pope's throne was pretty much a corrupt, malign cancer during the Middle Ages. But that changed. Nowadays I almost like the pope.

 

 

How more accessible west can be? What do you think is so restricting for muslims to integrate? Why muslims can't watch game of thrones - do west somehow prohibid it?

 

The US blew I don't know how much on the war in Iraq, and that gained them nothing. It was a huge waste of money. Same with the war in Afghanistan - although that might have come with some small positives. I'm sure the Kurds would have wanted the Iraq war and it's aftermath again if they could choose though.

 

If you can waste such titanic amounts of money on nothing, I'm sure they could spend money to promote "intelligent" (that is, old-school) Islam among Muslims and create Western, secular media that would be appealing to Muslims, promote secular Western news channels in Arabic et.c.... The question is just how we can get someone to pay up for these psy-ops. Most politicians are not into playing the long game.

 

 

Well and how you know that particular imigrant outright reject how we live? In fact they are hiding it so they can do damage

 

I am not sure how to react on wars fueled by US. On one hand you can say that they tried to fix problem at its source in far away country then to wait until they have to deal with it on home soil. On other hand it could be just war for oil. Problem with Meduim which would appeal muslims is it have to be silamic. its endless circle. And you are right that Christians were no better in 14th century, however are you willing to suffer next 600 years before islam finally reform? Also as you may know we have make in past 100 years more scientific discoveries than in past 2000 years. Thinks are moving fast now man

[Rostere]

Well and how you know that particular imigrant outright reject how we live? In fact they are hiding it so they can do damage

 

You can never know for sure, but you can at least try.

 

 

I am not sure how to react on wars fueled by US. On one hand you can say that they tried to fix problem at its source in far away country then to wait until they have to deal with it on home soil. On other hand it could be just war for oil. Problem with Meduim which would appeal muslims is it have to be silamic. its endless circle. And you are right that Christians were no better in 14th century, however are you willing to suffer next 600 years before islam finally reform? Also as you may know we have make in past 100 years more scientific discoveries than in past 2000 years. Thinks are moving fast now man

 

But they didn't get any oil, now did they? Now use Hanlon's razor. It was caused by instincts of xenophobia, while the military-industrial lobby, the oil lobby and the pro-Israel lobby all made their best to declare these wars. Hell, the entire Bush cabinet was practically made out of JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs) and PNAC members. War in the ME was pretty much guaranteed with those guys running the show. 9/11 only made it happen quicker.

 

You can't beat extremism with the edge of a sword. You have to be more clever than that. Current Islamic radicalism is a reaction to the powerlessness of Muslim countries in the last 400 years. It is fuelled by a minority complex. Remember, conservative Muslim goat herders do not travel to the West to shoot us. Muslims who live here, experience our society and see how backwards the Muslim countries are compared to the West become terrorists. When we get stable, modern countries in the ME these complexes will disappear. We won't need to wait 100 years for Muslim secularization if we can give it a push in the right direction.

[Chilloutman]

 

Well and how you know that particular imigrant outright reject how we live? In fact they are hiding it so they can do damage

 

You can never know for sure, but you can at least try.

 

 

I am not sure how to react on wars fueled by US. On one hand you can say that they tried to fix problem at its source in far away country then to wait until they have to deal with it on home soil. On other hand it could be just war for oil. Problem with Meduim which would appeal muslims is it have to be silamic. its endless circle. And you are right that Christians were no better in 14th century, however are you willing to suffer next 600 years before islam finally reform? Also as you may know we have make in past 100 years more scientific discoveries than in past 2000 years. Thinks are moving fast now man

 

But they didn't get any oil, now did they? Now use Hanlon's razor. It was caused by instincts of xenophobia, while the military-industrial lobby, the oil lobby and the pro-Israel lobby all made their best to declare these wars. Hell, the entire Bush cabinet was practically made out of JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs) and PNAC members. War in the ME was pretty much guaranteed with those guys running the show. 9/11 only made it happen quicker.

 

You can't beat extremism with the edge of a sword. You have to be more clever than that. Current Islamic radicalism is a reaction to the powerlessness of Muslim countries in the last 400 years. It is fuelled by a minority complex. Remember, conservative Muslim goat herders do not travel to the West to shoot us. Muslims who live here, experience our society and see how backwards the Muslim countries are compared to the West become terrorists. When we get stable, modern countries in the ME these complexes will disappear. We won't need to wait 100 years for Muslim secularization if we can give it a push in the right direction.

 

 

Well if we acted sooner about nazi extremism there would not be world war dont you think? Also secularization of christians didnt come from anyone esle then christians themselfs, do you really believe that any other ethnicity forced secularization on christians?

[Rostere]

Well if we acted sooner about nazi extremism there would not be world war dont you think?

 

The dolchstosslegende which put the Nazis in power was grounded on a military overreaction of the entente powers. I believe that is the best lesson from in inter-war era. Of course you could also have handled the Nazis differently but I prefer to use peaceful, preventive means.

 

 

Also secularization of christians didnt come from anyone esle then christians themselfs, do you really believe that any other ethnicity forced secularization on christians?

 

No. But it was a slow and arduous process as well. Secondly our secularism  - specifically the freedom of religion in the Netherlands which was the forerunner at it's time - was inspired by the Ottoman Empire at the time (late 1500s IIRC).

[Chilloutman]

 

Well if we acted sooner about nazi extremism there would not be world war dont you think?

 

The dolchstosslegende which put the Nazis in power was grounded on a military overreaction of the entente powers. I believe that is the best lesson from in inter-war era. Of course you could also have handled the Nazis differently but I prefer to use peaceful, preventive means.

 

 

Also secularization of christians didnt come from anyone esle then christians themselfs, do you really believe that any other ethnicity forced secularization on christians?

 

No. But it was a slow and arduous process as well. Secondly our secularism  - specifically the freedom of religion in the Netherlands which was the forerunner at it's time - was inspired by the Ottoman Empire at the time (late 1500s IIRC).

 

 

Yes process was slow, but why it was slow? I believe its because we didnt have anything else then religion but today we are flying into space. All those scientific discoveries made through history brought us closer to secularisation because they start questioning christian teaching (if you were is space you kind of know that there is no bearded man on cloud here). Same should apply for muslims but for some reason it didnt

 

And Nazis get into power exactly because other powers didnt want war so they give them more and more space until its was no longer in their control and you are suggesting completly same thing

Edited January 14, 2015 by Chilloutman

[Gorgon]

The problem with acting sooner is that there was no middle ground. Stopping Hitler at any time before Poland would have meant war. No one was ready for it. The two major players in WW1, France and Britain, also disagreed dramatically about German reperations. Ideal ground for a gambler and brinksman like Hitler. 

[Chilloutman]

The problem with acting sooner is that there was no middle ground. Stopping Hitler at any time before Poland would have meant war. No one was ready for it. The two major players in WW1, France and Britain, also disagreed dramatically about German reperations. Ideal ground for a gambler and brinksman like Hitler. 

 

yeah so instead of small war it ended up as WW2, doesnt sound any better to me to be honest

[Gorgon]

Not in hindsight certainly.