Surface Reflection Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) The first thread got locked down because of moderators inability to stop trolls (to put it kindly) continuous repetitive off topic posting, and various false accusations and such nonsense.So - a new thread.This time all those who will repeat any of that stuff will be automatically put on ignore. To re-establish the curriculum:There is a specific feature i saw in all so far released gameplay videos. That feature compounds with a few other ones, one being the way engagement is working now, to create combat gameplay that is not really good, inspiring or engaging.The thing is that you kinda forgot to pay a lot of attention to the Real Time part of the combat. There is practically none of it. Its all just pause-pause-pause-pause. You are paying too much attention to pausing and the dry skills and mechanics... that dont visually translate into real time part of the gameplay at all.If you really want to have a great real time with pause combat and gameplay - you really, really need to invest a lot of time and effort into the REAL TIME section of the combat. - speaking generally.-By that i specifically mean this: Your characters in this game close the distance to each other and then they just stand there and swing at each other, interrupted by frequent pausing - while they just stand woodenly, not moving, not dodging, not doing anything at all. Any action and reaction is simply transferred through stats and calculations. Not through physical movement of the characters or creatures.Sure they move when the player makes them move around, but thats just walking to a different-same spot and then doing the same thing all over again. Visually. The combat is really hampered by the animations style and overall visual approach. The new mechanics would actually fully blossom only with appropriate visual representation.PoE currently uses the old DnD "characters stand in place in front of one another and swing away", which pretty much ruins any organic flow a real time combat should exhibit. But there is actually no need for that anymore. That old presentation was there because atleast partly the technology didnt alow for anything much better. Now it does. There should be some movement to those bodies, some should be lurching, heaving, stepping around, jumping back and forth etc. Barbarians should be ponderous, swinging with wild swings or strikes, Rogues agile and lean, fast moving, dodging. All combined with swings of attacks and defense moves. - (that are already there) - All these new mechanics would play into such new physical moves and animations perfectly. But right now, they simply dont translate into the Real Time part of the "Real Time with Pause". I had hoped that the game will take such approach when i saw all those guys experimenting with weapons around Obsidian offices in that old update... but it seems you guys were just taking in how the weapons move. Not how the people holding them move in combat.However, due to incredible amount of work this kind of visual representation would require im thinking this is far from possible, especially at this stage of the game development.On the other hand... you will not be able to make combat really interesting, engaging or new in any way unless you do it.And... its real time components or flow will end up looking worse then many current Turn Based games. That would be the situation in general terms. Of course its understandable that they moved in this direction because of legacy of IE games but i feel that is one feature that also needed to get a bit of a revamp for the better, done appropriately, fitting for this specific style of the game.There is about three or a few more months left, so its doubtful any major change would be attempted, but on the other hand its kind of a enough time to improve this side of the game if they would decide to do it. Hopefully, such improvements are already a part of the general work towards improving the beta into final release state. It wouldn't exactly be a surprise.... AND they actually had added some new animations and so improved the Monk, just recently... so its practically as usual in game dev.- there is no updates that actually claim anything different, either.Anyway, It really feels to me it would be a shame to have combat less engaging (pun not intended) when the rest of the game is so brilliant and fresh and well done. Such as the awesome text adventures, a start of a very good main plot story, good characters, good dialogue, great locations and setting and all that stuff....What can be actually done is a matter of being realistic and figuring out what additions and improvements of how characters move and visually interact could be realistically doable, considering the stage of development and other such realities.Which means these would have to be minimalistic, fit for the style of the game and its PoV additions, made as expressions of new mechanics and character abilities - of course, since that would make them incredibly useful for players and devs and Ai, not just for making combat behave and look more organic, more "fluid" if you will. A lot can be done with smaller changes of the already existing material, for example the speed of characters general movement could be reduced as or when their endurance gets depleted. The ordinary walk animation isnt that difficult to turn into a slower, kind of hobbling version that could serve to present some form of critical hits, or into fast two steps forward - attack, two steps back move. (using the ordinary attack animation).Or to have those that are in engagement visually move around the area together, fighting their own small duel kind of a thing.That would practically only use already existing assets and animations, you would only need to limit the range of their spin so they dont dance off too far away. Not a problem to set some radii, right? Of course the real question is whether the devs would want to do this. If they dont then this thread wont matter much,And it wont work very well or very much if the Engagement mechanics stay the same as now.So post something constructive, on topic - or dont post at all. - currently being comfortably sick and coughing in the bat cave. More coffee Alfred... cough...cough...coughghhhhhhh... Edited January 6, 2015 by Surface Reflection
Darkpriest Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 while i think that animations could be better considering 3d models and what we've seen in other real time games with non-super detailed combatants of various scales, implying that mods do their job bad or similar, does not provide a bright future for this thread.
Emc2 Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 I went and checked the animations from some YT videos (I'm not in the BB) and I have to agree that they could improve the attack animations a bit on some weapons. This is not really a big thing for me as I don't really care about the visual feedback on mechanic-heavy games. I can enjoy ADOM even with the ASCII graphics and I don't think the game would improve that much with proper graphics (even though they are trying to improve it). So I guess I don't think the same way you do. This doesn't mean your points are in any way invalid though. There is always room for improvement. For most backers/developers the one-spot-based combat is a good choice considering the importance of positioning in this game. The combat just doesn't need to be any more fluid than it is ATM (except some attack animations) since it does its job well enough for me. NOTE: These are just my opinions/thoughts, not facts!
Surface Reflection Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 Im not TALKING ABOUT ATTACK ANIMATIONS. I am talking about improving movement during combat. Also, while its nice to see someone correctly presenting his opinion... that opinion is really pointless in this discussion. With it, you are just basically saying that you dont mind if the game plays badly. And if everything stays the same as it is now. Thats totally fine as far as am concerned. You dont think thats bad? I couldnt care less. Just dont write that in this thread, because this thread is aboout what small minimalistically designed additions could help make combat less static and boring.
Luckmann Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I think the best solution is for everyone to simply stay out of Surface Reflection's threads. 1
Emc2 Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Yes I agree that my point about the clunky animations was a bit off topic, but I also raised the point about the significance of the additions you pointed out. As I said, there are people who don't give a **** about the combat movement when the basic idea of the game is to put characters on a good position to do their mindless slashing. They won't sacrifice mechanical consistency for the sake of visual feedback, at least at this point of development. I've not played the game myself so I can't tell how it 'feels' but as far as I've seen, there is no problems in that area. It looks like playing IE games and only problem regarding the real time aspect of IE's combat was the poor pathfinding. I'm sorry if I offended you with my semi-off topic, poorly expressed opinion and I hope some people can contribute more useful posts on topic.
Surface Reflection Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) You havent offended me, its just that kind of opinion contributes nothing to the subject of the thread. There may be people (congratulations on being chosen as a spokeperson for the "people" btw), who think whatever about it but that doesnt change the fact that the game combat is extremely static now, that it looks and plays much worse then IE games (plenty of threads about it from many other posters) and that some appropriate adidtional movement would improve one side of the overal problem. If you are then claiming it doesnt seem bad for you and that you are ok with how things are then - fine. What the hell do i have to say to that except :shrug: ? There is no sacrificing of mechanical consistency because i am arguing for improved movement based on stats and mechanics of the game first and foremost. Havent you read what i wrote above at all? Indeed, lets hope some people can contribute more useful posts... while i think that animations could be better considering 3d models and what we've seen in other real time games with non-super detailed combatants of various scales, implying that mods do their job bad or similar, does not provide a bright future for this thread. Well, except that i am supposed to live in terror of displeasing teh moderators by saying they do a really bad job - when they do a bad job, which is pretty much the usual on teh internet forums... I think the best solution is for everyone to simply stay out of Surface Reflection's threads. - an example of how pathetic and low a person can get, after he proclaimed he so put me on ignore, after he tried to wrote some cheap insulting post and claim how he is right before "escaping"... and then appearing in my thread to post that self embarassing failure of logic. all because: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/69039-engagement-mechanics-problems-and-solutions/page-14?do=findComment&comment=1553694 while i think that animations could be better considering 3d models and what we've seen in other real time games with non-super detailed combatants of various scales Better yes, but the real butter is better how exactly. Which ones of the new mechanics and abilities and moves could be better represented through movement during combat, in a way that would give it a more organic, moving, lively representation? Some surely can and that would make all such additions and improvements stay within the style and theme of the game, while it would directly represent specific states and mechanics at work. It would mean you get a direct visual feedbacl on what any of your characters is doing. And it would increase the tactical gameplay since the characters would actually move around - especially if engagement is changed and adjusted as in that other suggestion of mine. Edited January 7, 2015 by Surface Reflection
Osvir Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) PoE currently uses the old DnD "characters stand in place in front of one another and swing away", which pretty much ruins any organic flow a real time combat should exhibit. But there is actually no need for that anymore. That old presentation was there because atleast partly the technology didnt alow for anything much better. Now it does. There should be some movement to those bodies, some should be lurching, heaving, stepping around, jumping back and forth etc. Barbarians should be ponderous, swinging with wild swings or strikes, Rogues agile and lean, fast moving, dodging. All combined with swings of attacks and defense moves. - (that are already there) - Animation isn't a breeze, and takes tons of tons of time to make good. I've advocated for better animations since near the start (2012, early 2013?), across the board (movement, attacking, jumping, dodging, leaping and so on and so forth). And the animations are better than what they were in the IE games, or, they are more varied and more visually/graphically impressive. Of course, they aren't where I'd wish them to be, but my wishes were (regarding the subject) always naive and gullible. In essence: It's too late, heck, it was too late when the Kickstarter project got funded too, or even before it even began. There just never was enough resources for this sort of thing. Sequel, maybe. 3rd installment, if the 1st & 2nd do well. EDIT: Bold has been editted in after-hand. Edited January 7, 2015 by Osvir 1
Surface Reflection Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Read the whole bloody post are you mental? Are you blind? Disabled? Context limited? That is only a part where is speak about the issue on general level, i even said so to make it easier for the likes of you, ffs... Edited January 7, 2015 by Surface Reflection
Surface Reflection Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) So long dumbass. Learn to first read what you are replying to in the future. Thats considered polite. Edited January 7, 2015 by Surface Reflection
Luckmann Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 WOW! FRIENDLY! Goodbye Surface. I applaud your attempt, though.
Gfted1 Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I see this thread has also devolved into personal insults. Closed. 5 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Recommended Posts