The Fighting Style Talents

[Sensuki]

v333 introduced some Weapon Style talents (familiar from D&D Proficiencies and Feats)

Two Weapon Style - (+20% Attack Speed when wielding Two Weapons)
Single Weapon Style - (Converts 20% of Grazes into Hits)
Sword and Shield Style - (+10 Deflection & Shield Deflection bonus to Reflex)
Two Handed Style - (+5 Deflection)

Is it just me, or out of all of these very good talents does the Two Handed Style one seem pretty bad in comparison to the others?

Personally I'd like to see the Two Handed style talent be offensively oriented. Two handed weapons emphasize damage, so I'd rather the talent did something to enhance that rather than tacking on a meager Deflection bonus. Both the TWF and 1H style talents give a pretty nice DPS boost in comparison.

 

The Gunner talent is probably the closes thing to Ranged Weapon style, since it offers faster reload speed, although I'm not sure if that works on Bows and Implements or not. If that isn't the case, I'd like to see a Ranged weapon talent that does.

What is your feedback on the weapon style talents?

 

[Doppelschwert]

I think deflection on two handed weapons is fine. Two handed weapons have the greates damage values and are therefore best at penetrating DT. So in particular, they already have the consistently highest DPS and have this far proven to be the most useful weapons overall if you disregard the DT bypass of some weapons.

 

It's true that the other talents enhance the benefit of the given style even further, but I think it would be too strong on two handed weapons if you gave them more damage. If you wanted to buff their offense without making DT even more trivial, you'd have to give them a bonus to attack speed. But then you'd need to give two weapon style something different, for the sake of asymmetry. Giving two weapons a bonus to damage again compromises the DT mechanic, so I wouldn't know what to give them.

 

So in conclusion I think that two handed weapons already are the upper ceiling on damage you should be able to output. If you want to balance their role, you can get the deflection, otherwise just take another talent that helps on dealing damage. The talents are competing with the other talents as well, not only among themselves, so I think its fine.

[Sensuki]

That is the case as they are now in the game, but the word on the grape vine is that Two Handed Weapons are not meant to be the outright best weapons in the game. Josh has said that he's going to tune up the damage of 1H weapons so that they deal superior damage against low-medium armor. 2H will be better vs higher armor.

 

Currently the weapons are tuned for ACC-DEF = 0 and 0 DT. When the tuning changes, 2Hers will be inferior vs light and medium armored targets.

 

That is why I think that the talent should be in line with the other two.

 

Quote (from PM) for posterity

 

Even so, the 1H weapons will likely rise in overall damage because they're supposed to be markedly superior when armor is modest or low. It's a relatively easy thing to chart in a spreadsheet, but I haven't put time into tuning the base values yet. One of the easiest things about is that all 1H fast melee weapons have the same damage range, as do all 1H normal melee weapons and all 2H melee weapons. Adjusting one means adjusting the entire category, so it's fast and easy to see the impact the change has.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Sensuki

[constantine]

LOL when I got to the part where I read about 2-handed weapon style I said (out loud) WT* ?!

 

 

Underpowered + you re right, should be offense-oriented.

 

I don t like the single weapon style also. It's very bad. It will have very very *very* low occurence.

 

The other 2 are very nice. I also noted that a missile/ranged weapon style is missing.

[Sensuki]

No the 1H weapon style one is good, its a 20% chance of +50% base damage. If I was going 1H Single style, I'd always pick it.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Sensuki

[constantine]

Sorry for double posting.

 

I think single weapon style would be good if it converted 20% of hits into crt hits.

[Sensuki]

That would be too strong, that's like a roll 15-20 on a d20 to crit in D&D You can only do that with a Keen Scimitar with Improved Critical

[constantine]

No the 1H weapon style one is good, its a 20% chance of +50% base damage. If I was going 1H Single style, I'd always pick it.

 

The point is that you should do more hits than grazes, so the skill should convert hits into crts.

 

When you have lv difference with the enemy, you re not gonna notice your higher powerif it stays as it is.

 

When *you* re the lower lv and do more grazes, you re still gonna land some strong crt blows, albeit fewer.

[Sensuki]

Yeah you will. At ACC-DEF = 0, you graze 45% of the time and hit 45% of the time. To even get to the area where the Talent starts to become less useful you need ACC-DEF = +25, and it still does something all the way up to ACC-DEF = +45

 

However I do think that it will become superfluous in some instances, because I think the Fighter has an ability that does basically the same thing. Need to try that build actually hahah - 5% grazes, 90% hits

 

Might do that tomorrow.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Sensuki

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Is it just me, or out of all of these very good talents does the Two Handed Style one seem pretty bad in comparison to the others?

It isn't just you mate. It reminds me a bit of BG2's Sword and Shield style, in that it's ****.

 

I'd say an armor piercing or damage boost would be best, as that would go with the "theme" of the talents boosting the inherent benefits of each style.

[constantine]

That would be too strong, that's like a roll 15-20 on a d20 to crit in D&D You can only do that with a Keen Scimitar with Improved Critical

Actually with a Keen Scimitar *or* Improved Crt with Scimitars, as threat ranges don't stack

 

Still, I don't think it's OP, it's single-weapon style- you re sacrificing a shield's protection, or two weapon style's more atks, or the two-handed style's large dmg.

 

But even if you think it OP, i d still choose two weapon style, coupled with pumped DEX. DEX may find a reason for existence after all !

Edited November 7, 2014 by constantine

[Sensuki]

Single Weapon style gets a +15 Accuracy bonus (that's the advantage of the style).

Edited November 7, 2014 by Sensuki

[constantine]

Single Weapon style gets a +15 Accuracy bonus (that's the advantage of the style).

OK that's better. And no need to argue about it

[constantine]

So, they need to change two-handed weapon style and maybe add a style for ranged weapons ?

 

Or even 2, one seperate for firearms.

[Sensuki]

Well I think Gunner *might* work for all Ranged weapons, but it's difficult to tell. Honestly I'd have to check the source code to probably find out.

[Doppelschwert]

That is the case as they are now in the game, but the word on the grape vine is that Two Handed Weapons are not meant to be the outright best weapons in the game. Josh has said that he's going to tune up the damage of 1H weapons so that they deal superior damage against low-medium armor. 2H will be better vs higher armor.

 

Currently the weapons are tuned for ACC-DEF = 0 and 0 DT. When the tuning changes, 2Hers will be inferior vs light and medium armored targets.

 

That is why I think that the talent should be in line with the other two.

 

Quote (from PM) for posterity

 

Even so, the 1H weapons will likely rise in overall damage because they're supposed to be markedly superior when armor is modest or low. It's a relatively easy thing to chart in a spreadsheet, but I haven't put time into tuning the base values yet. One of the easiest things about is that all 1H fast melee weapons have the same damage range, as do all 1H normal melee weapons and all 2H melee weapons. Adjusting one means adjusting the entire category, so it's fast and easy to see the impact the change has.

 

 

That's what I expected from the game as well, that they scale it in the way josh described. It doesn't change my argument, however.

 

If you want a linear increase in damage, that is, you want the DT system to maintain its implication with regards to weapon styles, the only thing you can do is adjust attack speed. It works on TWF because it just further improves the inherent bonus to the style.

 

If you don't want to water the distinction between these styles down, then I think you can't just improve attack speed on two handed weapons.

On the other hand, any change to damage will shift the usefulness of the weapon versus various values of DT, so if you just gave a 20% bonus damage or +5 damage per hit on a two handed weapon, it would shift the usefulness with regards to DT.

 

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't do that at all, I'm arguing that I think this is the rationale behind it. When you have a system like DT, the crucial point is how much damage you can make with a single standard attack at most in order to balance the values. If the numbers become to inflated, you will have balancing problems, so it's probably not sensible to let them scale through the roof. Because there is no increase in actual damage across all talents, the DT system stays intact.

 

Personally, I'd like two haned weapons to give a better chance at interupting, since you have less overall opportunities to interrupt with them in the first place, given the slow attack speed.

 

On an unrelated note, what does 20% graces convertes into hits mean?

Do you convert 20% of the actual graces range or do you convert at most 20 points of the actual graces range?

[morhilane]

I personally would put the +Deflection into Two Weapon Style and maybe higher than 5, but that's really a balance thing which is still in flux. Not sure what to gives Two-Handed weapon, maybe an accuracy bonus?

 

Beyond numbers though, I love their inclusion.

[dunehunter]

I think deflection on two handed weapons is fine. Two handed weapons have the greates damage values and are therefore best at penetrating DT. So in particular, they already have the consistently highest DPS and have this far proven to be the most useful weapons overall if you disregard the DT bypass of some weapons.

 

Two handed weapon does more damage so their related talent should be worse? Sorry i dont get into your logic.   Shouldn't they make more effect in balancing weapon system itself than making talents unbalance to balance weapon system?

Edited November 7, 2014 by dunehunter

[Doppelschwert]

I'm talking about function, not the numbers.

Obviously you can make a deflection bonus high enough for it to be an equally attractive choice for some character concepts.

[Lephys]

It isn't just you mate. It reminds me a bit of BG2's Sword and Shield style, in that it's ****.

 

I'd say an armor piercing or damage boost would be best, as that would go with the "theme" of the talents boosting the inherent benefits of each style.

What if instead of granting you additional Deflection, it lowered your enemy's Deflection upon hits (basically a temporary debuff)?

 

Just a thought, since that's not quite actually armor-piercing, but is still related to the powerful strikes of the two-handed style.

 

Of course, it might end up being too similar to just a boost to Accuracy. *shrug*

 

Personally, I'd like two haned weapons to give a better chance at interupting, since you have less overall opportunities to interrupt with them in the first place, given the slow attack speed.

Or this! 8D

Edited November 7, 2014 by Lephys

[dunehunter]

 

Is it just me, or out of all of these very good talents does the Two Handed Style one seem pretty bad in comparison to the others?

It isn't just you mate. It reminds me a bit of BG2's Sword and Shield style, in that it's ****.

 

I'd say an armor piercing or damage boost would be best, as that would go with the "theme" of the talents boosting the inherent benefits of each style.

 

 

I would like to see a higher mighty +damage rate for two-handed weapon if u pick the style, or +stun&knock down resist or etc

[Doppelschwert]

Must've overread the part about armor piercing before.

I believe that would be the best course of action in order to not break the DT system, yes.

[Sensuki]

You do realize armor has DR as well, right?

 

If 2H style did x1.1 damage (I'm not saying it should, just an example), after DT that value would be reduced by the DR of the armor, higher the damage the more is reduced

 

Personally I think improving what they do best is the best way to go - and that's what's been done for every style except 2H

 

2WF - speed

1H - accuracy

Ranged - Reload 

 

2H - Deflection :/

Edited November 7, 2014 by Sensuki

[constantine]

Balance, balance, balancing issues. Im sick of hearing about it to everything PoE has to do with.

 

2-handed weapons should cleave a man on a hit, at least make the talent one of offensive nature.

[Karkarov]

I think deflection on two hander is fine, but it needs to be more than 5.  Either that or it needs to be like +5 +something to will defence, or maybe +5% speed with two handers as well.  Giving two hand DT pen would just make the already superior damage dealing melee weapons be even more egregiously op over 1 hand or duel wield.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Karkarov