Health & Stamina, failed design?

[Iucounu]

No seriously. Is there a reasonable argument as to why Stamina/Health mechanics exists?

No healing spells because it would encourage healing batteries and/or make classes like a priest indispensable for every party (giving every class healing spell abilities sucks and doesn't feel right).

Alternative would be to let all healing happen through healing potions, but that sucks and doesn't feel right. 

healing bandages and such stuff are lame

Edited September 4, 2014 by Iucounu

[Matt516]

I don't think the Health/Stamina system is broken by design - but it certainly needs tweaks. This thread offers some of the best ideas I've seen so far: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68144-about-staminahealth-and-an-idea-how-to-fix-it/?p=1499352

 

TL;DR:

 

Idea 1) Tie the H/S ratio to current stamina. So at (for example, these numbers would certainly need to be tuned) 100-75% stamina, you lose no health, at 75-50% stamina, you lose at 1:4 ratio, at 50-0%, you lose at 1:2 ratio (or something like that). This would lessen the impact of small encounters while solving the "healing stamina is actually bad strategically" problem we currently have.

 

Idea 2) Eliminate Health, and opt for a number of allowed times to fall in battle (dependent on class, maybe talents, maybe actual max stamina, I dunno) before maimed/dead. Fixes the aforementioned problems as well.

 

We should stop arguing about why we don't like the current system and offer really good alternatives instead. Both the ones I summarized above (neither of which were my ideas, btw) are fantastic alternatives to the current problem. I think Idea 1 is the most likely to happen since it doesn't eliminate Health and OE clearly likes the health mechanic. Anyone have any better ideas? Seems to me the best course is to find a few really good ideas, then rally behind the best of them. Because the current system clearly isn't working as intended - the incentive structure is all over the place. But that can be fixed.

 

So! I've put forth 2 ideas. Anyone got any better ones?

[Shimrod]

I can think of many examples of games where clerics could heal yet weren't indispensable to a party. They aren't just buffbots in BG2, IWD2, they can be strong and fun to play. Heals just mean less downtime, I don't see how that can be a bad thing. It's not an MMO that we need to be padding the game out with downtime to get subs money.

 

If I were to complain about any class in typical RPGs it would be rogues rather than clerics. Having to take up up a party slot just for lockpicking and disarming traps while being otherwise dead weight.

[mutonizer]

Eliminate Health, and opt for a number of allowed times to fall in battle (dependent on class, maybe talents, maybe actual max stamina, I dunno) before maimed/dead. Fixes the aforementioned problems as well.

 

That suits me just fine since it's now based on Stamina as a critical game over factor, which is included in the resource management mechanics, so rests will be needed when I really **** up, or when the entire team will be low on resource.

 

And yea, keep that silly supply limit thing if you want, people will just mod/save edit/run back anyway, no big deal

[Shevek]

System is fine. Just needs tuning. Game is getting better with every patch. Chill.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Shevek

[Volourn]

If the system was fine it wouldn't need tuning...

[Captain Shrek]

 

No seriously. Is there a reasonable argument as to why Stamina/Health mechanics exists?

No healing spells because it would encourage healing batteries and/or make classes like a priest indispensable for every party (giving every class healing spell abilities sucks and doesn't feel right).

Alternative would be to let all healing happen through healing potions, but that sucks and doesn't feel right. 

healing bandages and such stuff are lame

 

 

 

Actually nothing of that sort ought to happen. And that is besides the point anyway. The player should have the freedom to decide how he plays. Artifcially restricting playstyles is pretty damn ugly way of designing a SINGLE PLAYER GAME.

 

More importantly, if I understand your argument right, what you are saying is sas follows:

 

"The HP/Stamina distinction exists because there is no healing magic. So you can not heal HP hence stamina must be healed instead."

 

I have several obvious objections:

 

1) How the heck do you heal stamina? Do they call it stamina magic or something?

 

2) Why not just get rid of HP altogether? "Heal stamina" instead

[Iucounu]

 

I can think of many examples of games where clerics could heal yet weren't indispensable to a party. They aren't just buffbots in BG2, IWD2, they can be strong and fun to play. Heals just mean less downtime, I don't see how that can be a bad thing. It's not an MMO that we need to be padding the game out with downtime to get subs money.

Yes such games exist and could be made, but PoE isn't one of these games. You almost always require a tank who takes suffering hp-wise, and having a priest who can fully heal said tanks hp several times, with the hp being the deciding factor if you have to rest or not, would greatly decrease the numbers of rests required.

And yes, downtime does matter, or at least that was the main compaint of most people against the current stamina/health implementation. I also think it should matter ingame more and I dislike the current tendency of some people to backtrack to the inn after  every two fights.. that should be restricted by either making the inn much more expensive, or perhaps add random encounters (perhaps deterministic, to prevent savescumming) while traveling.

 

If I were to complain about any class in typical RPGs it would be rogues rather than clerics. Having to take up up a party slot just for lockpicking and disarming traps while being otherwise dead weight.

Well, at least in the BGs I can say for myself that I used my thief to great effect. 

 

 

 

No seriously. Is there a reasonable argument as to why Stamina/Health mechanics exists?

No healing spells because it would encourage healing batteries and/or make classes like a priest indispensable for every party (giving every class healing spell abilities sucks and doesn't feel right).

Alternative would be to let all healing happen through healing potions, but that sucks and doesn't feel right. 

healing bandages and such stuff are lame

 

 

 

Actually nothing of that sort ought to happen. And that is besides the point anyway. The player should have the freedom to decide how he plays. Artifcially restricting playstyles is pretty damn ugly way of designing a SINGLE PLAYER GAME.

 

More importantly, if I understand your argument right, what you are saying is sas follows:

 

"The HP/Stamina distinction exists because there is no healing magic. So you can not heal HP hence stamina must be healed instead."

 

I have several obvious objections:

 

1) How the heck do you heal stamina? Do they call it stamina magic or something?

 

2) Why not just get rid of HP altogether? "Heal stamina" instead 

1) It isn't really "healing", more like "stamina boost" or "energy boost". It doesn't affect your hp after all. 

2) stamina is fully regained after every fight, so I don't really understand what your point is. Stamina regain is only used within combat tactically, and it in no way affects the standing time of your party over several fights, other than preventing your characters to get unconcious and maimed in the fight in which it's used.

[Captain Shrek]

Stamina is absolutely HP as HP was in IE games or in most RPGs. Take Dragon Age Origins for example: You fight till your HP drops to zero and then you get knocked out with injuries. Guess what, HP regens after every fight there too... The only difference was that HP did not regenerate in IE games. 

 

 

HP in PoE games plays another role where it measures your ability to fight on and on after every encounter. Which as I was trying to argue is very very tacky. It is unnecessary addition that just does not make any contribution to the game. If the designer really wants to simulate some kind of model where the party is exhausted after an encounter there is the Injury mechanic, which could be more tactical: For example the Opponents can inflict certain kinds of damages which if not resisted would cause semi-permanent debuffs. This would make the mechanics much more active instead of the current two passive health bars which make little sense if any.   

 

Dragon Age Origins pulled that off quite well ages ago with their injury system. It is not exactly similar to what I am proposing but does create the feeling of combat-attrition without leading to ridiculous rest spamming. 

[Iucounu]

Stamina is absolutely HP as HP was in IE games or in most RPGs. Take Dragon Age Origins for example: You fight till your HP drops to zero and then you get knocked out with injuries. Guess what, HP regens after every fight there too... The only difference was that HP did not regenerate in IE games. 

 

HP in PoE games plays another role where it measures your ability to fight on and on after every encounter. Which as I was trying to argue is very very tacky. It is unnecessary addition that just does not make any contribution to the game. If the designer really wants to simulate some kind of model where the party is exhausted after an encounter there is the Injury mechanic, which could be more tactical: For example the Opponents can inflict certain kinds of damages which if not resisted would cause semi-permanent debuffs. This would make the mechanics much more active instead of the current two passive health bars which make little sense if any.   

 

Dragon Age Origins pulled that off quite well ages ago with their injury system. It is not exactly similar to what I am proposing but does create the feeling of combat-attrition without leading to ridiculous rest spamming. 

I don't know what HP in DA was, but it didn't have much to do with the IE games. Your hp was fully regained after every fight, and as long as your HP > 0, without consequences, even if you had only 1 HP left after every fight, you could fight on with the same efficency endlessly. PoE is more "granular" in this, as you get your "injuries" (health damage) for every stamina loss, not only when you're knocked out. 

Edited September 5, 2014 by Iucounu

[Captain Shrek]

 

Stamina is absolutely HP as HP was in IE games or in most RPGs. Take Dragon Age Origins for example: You fight till your HP drops to zero and then you get knocked out with injuries. Guess what, HP regens after every fight there too... The only difference was that HP did not regenerate in IE games. 

 

HP in PoE games plays another role where it measures your ability to fight on and on after every encounter. Which as I was trying to argue is very very tacky. It is unnecessary addition that just does not make any contribution to the game. If the designer really wants to simulate some kind of model where the party is exhausted after an encounter there is the Injury mechanic, which could be more tactical: For example the Opponents can inflict certain kinds of damages which if not resisted would cause semi-permanent debuffs. This would make the mechanics much more active instead of the current two passive health bars which make little sense if any.   

 

Dragon Age Origins pulled that off quite well ages ago with their injury system. It is not exactly similar to what I am proposing but does create the feeling of combat-attrition without leading to ridiculous rest spamming. 

I don't know what HP in DA was, but it didn't have much to do with the IE games. Your hp was fully regained after every fight, and as long as your HP > 0, without consequences, even if you had only 1 HP left after every fight, you could fight on with the same efficency endlessly. PoE is more "granular" in this, as you get your "injuries" (health damage) for every stamina loss, not only when you're knocked out. 

 

You can fight with one hundred percent efficacy in PoE as long as you have Stamina>o and no maiming. Just saying. 

[Iucounu]

 

 

Stamina is absolutely HP as HP was in IE games or in most RPGs. Take Dragon Age Origins for example: You fight till your HP drops to zero and then you get knocked out with injuries. Guess what, HP regens after every fight there too... The only difference was that HP did not regenerate in IE games. 

 

HP in PoE games plays another role where it measures your ability to fight on and on after every encounter. Which as I was trying to argue is very very tacky. It is unnecessary addition that just does not make any contribution to the game. If the designer really wants to simulate some kind of model where the party is exhausted after an encounter there is the Injury mechanic, which could be more tactical: For example the Opponents can inflict certain kinds of damages which if not resisted would cause semi-permanent debuffs. This would make the mechanics much more active instead of the current two passive health bars which make little sense if any.   

 

Dragon Age Origins pulled that off quite well ages ago with their injury system. It is not exactly similar to what I am proposing but does create the feeling of combat-attrition without leading to ridiculous rest spamming. 

I don't know what HP in DA was, but it didn't have much to do with the IE games. Your hp was fully regained after every fight, and as long as your HP > 0, without consequences, even if you had only 1 HP left after every fight, you could fight on with the same efficency endlessly. PoE is more "granular" in this, as you get your "injuries" (health damage) for every stamina loss, not only when you're knocked out. 

 

You can fight with one hundred percent efficacy in PoE as long as you have Stamina>o and no maiming. Just saying. 

 

Not when your HP are lower than your stamina, or 1/x times your stamina, whatever the ratio?

Edited September 5, 2014 by Iucounu

[Captain Shrek]

I am unaware of any such thing. Is this silly mechanics really in??? 

[Iucounu]

You get knocked out either if your hp = 0 or your stamina = 0, so depending on what is lower, that will be the deciding number how much punishment you can take in a fight

[Captain Shrek]

You get knocked out either if your hp = 0 or your stamina = 0, so depending on what is lower, that will be the deciding number how much punishment you can take in a fight

Did you just change your argument? never mind. Of course. If either drops to zero you do get knocked out. Back to my original point: HP is PoE just a second passive health bar that needs to go. May be replace with something like an injury system if the developers are so intent on forcing no healing magic for god alone knows why. 

 

Any one with half a brain knows that stamina also measures physical attrition. If the spells can cure that there is no reasonable argument why they can't cure injuries unless of course the developer is trying to prevent "degenerate" gameplay with tacked on reason. 

[Iucounu]

 

You get knocked out either if your hp = 0 or your stamina = 0, so depending on what is lower, that will be the deciding number how much punishment you can take in a fight

Did you just change your argument? never mind. Of course. If either drops to zero you do get knocked out. Back to my original point: HP is PoE just a second passive health bar that needs to go. May be replace with something like an injury system if the developers are so intent on forcing no healing magic for god alone knows why. 

My argument was that you're getting weaker after a fight even if your hp (stamina) doesn't drop to 0, unlike in DA. But admittedly, "fighting efficiently" can perhaps be understood differently in this context by different people.

 

 

 Any one with half a brain knows that stamina also measures physical attrition. If the spells can cure that there is no reasonable argument why they can't cure injuries unless of course the developer is trying to prevent "degenerate" gameplay with tacked on reason. 

It doesn't really cure the physical attrition itself, but rather your ability to fight back despite the physical attrition. I see it like that: If you get three heavy knocks on the head in a couple of seconds, you get unconcious. If you get 3 heavy knocks on your head within a couple of hours, you perhaps won't drop unconcious, but your skull will still get the same fracture from it. The stamina/health system in PoE is more or less an abstraction of that. 

Edited September 5, 2014 by Iucounu

[Captain Shrek]

I don't know dude. I see where you are getting at. But do hear me out.

 

A physical fracture ought to hurt and make you weaker making your efficiency go down. In PoE it does not until your Hp drops to zero. Which would imply that stamina somehow counteracts the damage to the skull and the stamina healing spell also does that; which should reasonably mean that it is actually doing "healing". This is also not painkiller stuff, as that would only be temporary relief . Stamina healing gives you permanent relief (i.e. as long as HP>0) independent of time between two fights. So it is really healing you in medical terms.

 

Now that would mean that either the lore is wrong OR that Stamina is just a mechanic without support from lore. I tend to think that it is the latter. Does that sound too bad?

Edited September 5, 2014 by Captain Shrek

[Iucounu]

I don't know dude. I see where you are getting at. But do hear me out.

 

A physical fracture ought to hurt and make you weaker making your efficiency go down. In PoE it does not until your Hp drops to zero. Which would imply that stamina somehow counteracts the damage to the skull and the stamina healing spell also does that; which should reasonably mean that it is actually doing "healing". This is also not painkiller stuff, as that would only be temporary relief . Stamina healing gives you permanent relief (i.e. as long as HP>0) independent of time between two fights. So it is really healing you in medical terms.

 

Now that would mean that either the lore is wrong OR that Stamina is just a mechanic without support from lore. I tend to think that it is the latter. Does that sound too bad?

The only cRPG I played so far where you're literally get worse at fighting (attacking power, defense and stuff) when your hp drops but are still above 0 was Betrayal at Krondor, and even though it was more realistic, I don't consider it a must-have.

You're still getting potentially weaker in that way that you can take less damage than when your hp is higher. A 10 hp fighter with otherwise same stats is weaker than a 100 hp fighter. That's enough simulation for me in that case. So no, I don't see stamina "healing" as real healing. 

Edited September 5, 2014 by Iucounu

[Racker]

Heh, you would think that a warrior who sustains a fractured bone in combat would be more or less knocked out.  Even if you assume your party is the best of the best, a fighter with a freshly broken arm or leg would be barely able to move, let alone fight goblins and ogres.  

 

I guess you can only make  a game like PoE so realistic before it starts bumping up against actual reality in ways that make it unfun; the reality of the situation is that a party of five or six people would never be able to fight their way through a dungeon of hundreds of enemies.  So there comes a point where game mechanics have to give up realism in exchange for a fun gameplay experience.  So the question is; does the health/stamina system, in it's current form, make the game more or less fun?  In my opinion, it doesn't add much to the old HP system and adds 'chores' to the game, which I don't like.  Just my opinion though.

[Captain Shrek]

All I am pointing out that is that the duality between Stamina/HP is just bringing healing to a technical level of incrementing HP that is not HP . 

[Iucounu]

^well, agree to disagree with both posts above, although I don't have a particular liking for the current system, I still think it's a better system for PoE than a classical healing hp version. Also, it's something fresh and new.. and that's definately a plus for me after playing dozens of games with the same system, even if it turns out that I hate it, at least I've experienced something new.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Iucounu

[Hiro Protagonist II]

A new way of healing needs to be introduced instead of resting. That's what it boils down to.

 

There's the 4th ed ritual comrade's succor which could be introduced into the lore of the game and there are various ways you could do that and I would be perfectly fine with that. There could be other things like herbalism that you could learn to make basic medicines that regained some hit points but not all points. Goodberrys with your druid from the BG games comes to mind that gave you some hit points back and I would perfectly fine with something like that. Anything that helps to restore health instead of camping/inn resting. And there have been many suggestions in the other thread to restore your health without resting.

 

As it is, it's a failed design. It's a failed design in the Game World Lore sense, not necessarily the actual mechanics of the Stamina/Health of your party members. The problem needs to be addressed and new healing methods needs to be introduced into the game, instead fluffing over it and doing some 'tweaks'. Tweaking numbers on the Stamina/Health ratio is not enough. Tweaking may give you a couple more encounters, but the underlying problem is still there - your tank's health will get critically low while everyone else in your party will be reasonably healthy or on full health. This is not real life, this is a computer game. No need to go all realism. And currently, it doesn't make sense in a fantasy computer role playing game to rest when five out of six party members are on full health because there is no other way to heal that wounded party member. Other games have different ways to heal your party members, this game needs it too.

 

Obsidian should take the interests of the game, the fun and the players and say, you know this didn't work as intended and we're changing it. Obsidian have announced and then changed things before (item durability). This is one of those things that needs to be changed.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Jon of the Wired]

I think the system is working pretty well. The Health / Stamina split is best understood as replacing cleric's healing spells as the primary limit on the adventuring day. That is to say, in AD&D you can treat HP as a tactical resource, like Stamina, as long as you have access to healing. Healing spells are the strategic resource, like Health, and when you run out your day is over (modulus wands of cure light wounds, which are a complete hack). I don't see it as problematic that you could be forced to rest because a single character is low on health. The only difference between PoE and AD&D in that regard is that it's more visible that one character has taken all the beatings, whereas it's relatively easy to forget exactly who the cleric was casting all their cure spells on.

 

If you find that your adventuring day is too short, that's not necessarily a problem with the system, but rather an indication that you should consider putting more of your characters on the front line, to spread the hits around, or focusing more on minimizing the amount of damage you're taking in fights. The tactical / strategic resource split is really about punishing you for barely scraping through fights. It's a feature, not a bug.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I'll be sure to put my Wizard on the front line to help with tanking and spreading the damage around. Thanks for the tip.

[Namutree]

I used to like the idea of a health/stamina divide, but I didn't expect the trash mobs to be such a hassle. Either the standard trash mobs need to go down easier, or we need like 50% more health.