Combat XP Poll - Let's See What We Think Now

[Headbomb]

Except that loot currently sucks too, so we don't even have that. Beetle shell gets you 50cp. New boots cost 5000cp. Hooray, 99 more beetles to go. Now we're grinding for money instead of xp, which is even worse.

 

 

1) So don't grind for money. Or pick better targets, like the Skaen Cultists.

2) Keyword: currently. This is a beta.

 

Also, do you really expect to go to a merchant and go "Hey there bub, I got 6 beetle shells here, how bout you trade me them shiny magical boots for the lot? If you want to trade a crappy item for a good one, you'll need a lot of those crappy items. But you can trade 3-4 shells and get a rope and grappling hook, or camping supplies. That's a fair trade in my book.

[SergioCQH]

 

Except that loot currently sucks too, so we don't even have that. Beetle shell gets you 50cp. New boots cost 5000cp. Hooray, 99 more beetles to go. Now we're grinding for money instead of xp, which is even worse.

 

 

1) So don't grind for money. Or pick better targets, like the Skaen Cultists.

2) Keyword: currently. This is a beta.

 

Also, do you really expect to go to a merchant and go "Hey there bub, I got 6 beetle shells here, how bout you trade me them shiny magical boots for the lot? If you want to trade a crappy item for a good one, you'll need a lot of those crappy items. But you can trade 3-4 shells and get a rope and grappling hook, or camping supplies. That's a fair trade in my book.

 

 

Pick better targets? There's currently very little picking involved. Every step you take in the wilderness, you trip over packs of ravenous beasts. Dungeons are the same way obviously. No kill xp was meant to make combat optional. In practice, it just means you still have to kill everything, you just don't get any xp.

[Headbomb]

I don't think you understand what the term "metagaming" means. Anticipating xp rewards from kills for level up is just plain old gaming. Metagaming would be anticipating quest rewards because you have already done the quest or read about the quest in a walkthrough.

 

 

Nope, you're the one that doesn't understand the term. Metagaming is playing the system, not playing the game. In Baldur's Gate it would look like this:

A) Violent -- You kill people as part of the quest, you get fat loot, you get 1300 XP for killing bandits, and 1000 XP for removing the tyrant from the throne, totalling 2300 XP.

B) Pacifist -- You take the pacifist path, you miss out on fat loot, you implicate the tyrant, guards take him away. You get 1000 XP for removing the tyrant, plus 500 XP for finding the unorthodox solution, plus some item better than what you'd get by going on a rampage to make up for the loot and XP.

C) Metagaming - You take Path B first so you get the better item, and 1500 XP. Then you go back to kill everyone for the extra 1300XP, and all the loot. You do this not because this is what a reasonable person would do in the universe, but because 2800 XP > 2300 XP > 1500 XP, and Big Item + Random Loot > Big Item > Random loot.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Headbomb

[Helm]

This horse has been rotting with maggots for eternity.

 

As I have been saying for years, any mechanic that eliminates rewarding psychopathic kill counts is a very good thing.

 

This game will track reputation. I don't want to be known as the guy that butchered an entire xvart village. And you know what? BG rewarded me for it, with no hit to my reputation or alignment!

Then why did you kill the Xvarts even though it was completely optional and infringed upon your roleplaying idealism?

 

Did you kill all of peaceful peasants too because the game rewards you with XP for doing so?

Edited August 21, 2014 by Helm

[Headbomb]

Every step you take in the wilderness, you trip over packs of ravenous beasts. Dungeons are the same way obviously. No kill xp was meant to make combat optional. In practice, it just means you still have to kill everything, you just don't get any xp.

 

Indeed. You get XP at the end, which factors in how difficult getting to the end was.

[SergioCQH]

 

I don't think you understand what the term "metagaming" means. Anticipating xp rewards from kills for level up is just plain old gaming. Metagaming would be anticipating quest rewards because you have already done the quest or read about the quest in a walkthrough.

 

 

Nope, you're the one that doesn't understand the term. Metagaming is playing the system, not playing the game. In Baldur's Gate it would look like this:

A) Violent -- You kill people as part of the quest, you get fat loot, you get 1300 XP for killing bandits, and 1000 XP for removing the tyrant from the throne, totalling 2300 XP.

B) Pacifist -- You take the pacifist path, you miss out on fat loot, you implicate the tyrant, guards take him away. You get 1000 XP for removing the tyrant, plus 500 XP for finding the unorthodox solution, plus some item better than what you'd get by going on a rampage to make up for the loot and XP.

C) Metagaming - You take Path B first so you get the better item, and 1500 XP. Then you go back to kill everyone for the extra 1300XP, and all the loot. You do this not because this is what a reasonable person would do in the universe, but because 2800 XP > 2300 XP > 1500 XP, and Big Item + Random Loot > Big Item > Random loot.

 

 

That's exploitation, or powergaming, not metagaming. Meta is a Greek prefix that means higher. In the case of metagaming, higher refers to higher knowledge found outside of playing the game. The situation you describe does not require any higher knowledge that the game doesn't provide.

 

Just because a term is fancy, doesn't mean it applies.

Edited August 21, 2014 by SergioCQH

[SergioCQH]

Repeat.
 

Edited August 21, 2014 by SergioCQH

[SergioCQH]

 

Every step you take in the wilderness, you trip over packs of ravenous beasts. Dungeons are the same way obviously. No kill xp was meant to make combat optional. In practice, it just means you still have to kill everything, you just don't get any xp.

 

Indeed. You get XP at the end, which factors in how difficult getting to the end was.

 

 

So basically, you get delayed kill xp, because there's not option to sneak the entire party through the whole dungeon.

[Headbomb]

In that specific case, yes.

 

And concerning metagaming, regardless of whatever linguistic roots you want to give it, it means playing with the specific goal of obtaining an outcome based on rules that a character living in the universe would not be aware of. Or as Wikipedia puts it:

 

Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

 

In simple terms, it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions.

 

There is even an article specifically on metagaming in RPGs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming_%28role-playing_games%29). I suggest you read it before accusing others of ignorance. In this case, you use the knowledge that (or hope that) devs didn't account for the Pacifist on the way in, Psycho on the way out, or didn't have the time to prevent the player from taking this path through defensive coding.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Headbomb

[SergioCQH]

In that specific case, yes.

 

And concerning metagaming, regardless of whatever linguistic roots you want to give it, it means playing with the specific goal of obtaining an outcome based on rules that a character living in the universe would not be aware of. Or as Wikipedia puts it:

 

Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

 

In simple terms, it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions.

 

Wikipedia basically said the exact same thing I said. Metagaming is using knowledge found outside the game. You're not using the term correctly. The term you want is powergaming or exploitation.

 

Here is Wikipedia's definition for the term you are looking for:

 

Powergaming (or power gaming) is a style of interacting with games or game-like systems with the aim of maximising progress towards a specific goal, to the exclusion of other considerations such as (in video games, boardgames, and roleplaying games) storytelling, atmosphere and camaraderie. Due to its focus on the letter of the rules over the spirit of the rules, it is often seen as unsporting, un-fun, or unsociable. This behaviour is most often found in games with a wide range of game features, lengthy campaigns or prize tournaments such as role-playing, massively multiplayer or collectible games.^[1]

Edited August 21, 2014 by SergioCQH

[Helm]

One of Sawyers reasons to only have quest XP was to prevent players from powergaming.

 

A pretty bull**** reason IMO. Who cares what a player does in his own game. Who cares if he would rather powergame to collect every last drop of XP.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Helm

[Headbomb]

So your entire point of contention is that you call it a violet automobile and I call it a purple car? Yeah I'm done with this conversation.

[Helm]

So your entire point of contention is that you call it a violet automobile and I call it a purple car? Yeah I'm done with this conversation.

What you desribed is called powergaming and not metagaming.

 

Metagaming can be helpful in figuring out how to powergame, but they are not synonymous.

[Leferd]

 

This horse has been rotting with maggots for eternity.

As I have been saying for years, any mechanic that eliminates rewarding psychopathic kill counts is a very good thing.

This game will track reputation. I don't want to be known as the guy that butchered an entire xvart village. And you know what? BG rewarded me for it, with no hit to my reputation or alignment!

 

Then why did you kill the Xvarts even though it was completely optional and infringed upon your roleplaying idealism?

 

Did you kill all of peaceful peasants too because the game rewards you with XP for doing so?

Yes. The game encouraged me to slaughter the entire village because I have this incentive to farm XP so I can level up and go ankheg hunting and get their XP I turn. Vicious never ending cycle. Kills my role play buzz.

 

In an objective based XP system, I'm not dangled with consequence-less meatbags to go XP farming. There's no incentive to do so.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Leferd

[Volourn]

"Yes. The game encouraged me to slaughter the entire village because I have this incentive to farm XP so I can level up and go ankheg hunting and get their XP I turn. Vicious never ending cycle. Kills my role play buzz."

 

I didn't feel enouraged. I kill a bunch of xfarts because theyw ere trying to kill me and others. I didn't chase down every single last one like you apparantly you did. I also don't hunt down every last ankheg either. But, I did attack the ones who attacked me.

 

 

"In an objective based XP system, I'm not dangled with consequence-less meatbags to go XP farming. There's no incentive to do so."

 

No, but you are still a lemon who does what the npc tells you to.

 

You are the ones who believe that a player should get no xp for defeating a dragon in combat but believes a player should xp for helping a little girl find her dolly just ebcause she asked you to. L0LZ

 

How is that NOT degenerate game play and horrible design?

[Leferd]

"Yes. The game encouraged me to slaughter the entire village because I have this incentive to farm XP so I can level up and go ankheg hunting and get their XP I turn. Vicious never ending cycle. Kills my role play buzz."

 

I didn't feel enouraged. I kill a bunch of xfarts because theyw ere trying to kill me and others. I didn't chase down every single last one like you apparantly you did. I also don't hunt down every last ankheg either. But, I did attack the ones who attacked me.

 

 

"In an objective based XP system, I'm not dangled with consequence-less meatbags to go XP farming. There's no incentive to do so."

 

No, but you are still a lemon who does what the npc tells you to.

 

You are the ones who believe that a player should get no xp for defeating a dragon in combat but believes a player should xp for helping a little girl find her dolly just ebcause she asked you to. L0LZ

 

How is that NOT degenerate game play and horrible design?

What's horrible design was that I was rewarded for going on a mass killing spree without any repercussions for such behavior.

 

But in an objective based system, I'm not going to murder someone unless I receive a gameplay incentive for doing so - usually in a form of a quest. And in other RPG's I'm usually quested to go dragonslaying, so I will get my XP and loot for doing so.

[Headbomb]

You are the ones who believe that a player should get no xp for defeating a dragon in combat but believes a player should xp for helping a little girl find her dolly just ebcause she asked you to. L0LZ

 

How is that NOT degenerate game play and horrible design?

 

A good DM doesn't waste a dragon on a random encounter.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Headbomb

[Helm]

 

 

This horse has been rotting with maggots for eternity.

As I have been saying for years, any mechanic that eliminates rewarding psychopathic kill counts is a very good thing.

This game will track reputation. I don't want to be known as the guy that butchered an entire xvart village. And you know what? BG rewarded me for it, with no hit to my reputation or alignment!

Then why did you kill the Xvarts even though it was completely optional and infringed upon your roleplaying idealism?

 

Did you kill all of peaceful peasants too because the game rewards you with XP for doing so?

Yes. The game encouraged me to slaughter the entire village because I have this incentive to farm XP so I can level up and go ankheg hunting and get their XP I turn. Vicious never ending cycle. Kills my role play buzz.

 

In an objective based XP system, I'm not dangled with consequence-less meatbags to go XP farming. There's no incentive to do so.

 

Really? That is sad that you couldn't figure out that it is pointless.

 

So what about items? Will you kill everything for item drops so that you can sell it for cash? Or do you only go on killing sprees for XP?

 

(BTW don't call it an objective based XP system, because it isn't. PoE uses a quest XP only system.)

[Volourn]

"A good DM doesn't waste a dragon on a random encounter."

 

Sure, a good DM wouldn't waste a dragon anywhere. But, a GOOD DM would use a dragon to challenge his players when they least expected. Imagine players exploring the far mountains (or deep unexplored woods), they hear a loud roar, and next thing they know they are in a fight for lvies against a credible opponent whose caught them off guard and they'll now need to get it together to either defat the beast or escape as opposed to fighting the next group of silly mostly harmless beetles, bandits, or xfarts? Or  having the party  be able to plan everything out ebfore attacking ala BG2 dragons who sit in their lairs non hostile.

 

The DM is supposed to challenge players 9reaosnably and fairly of course). random encounters aren't just supposed to be crap fodder that is no threat. But, is supposed to feed into 'you gotta expect the unexpected when travelling'.

 

Now, a bad DM would just throw a dragon into a random encounter for ****s and giggles. A good DM would use that dragon to further the challenge for the players in a meaningful way.

 

 

Now answer my question legitly and don't dodge it with non sequitor nonsense.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Volourn

[Leferd]

"Really? That is sad that you couldn't figure out that it is pointless."

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

"So what about items? Will you kill everything for item drops so that you can sell it for cash? Or do you only go on killing sprees for XP?"

 

Loot is secondary to XP. I don't like to go on killing sprees but I'm participating in degenerate behavior because I get rewarded for doing so without consequence. If there is a disincentive for me to not do so, then I won't. Killing critters, monsters, or non-humanoids in the wild in BG was essentially easy XP to farm without taking any reputation or alignment hit.

 

"(BTW don't call it an objective based XP system, because it isn't. PoE uses a quest XP only system.)"

 

Ok. Quest based system then. My bad.

[Volourn]

"Killing critters, monsters, or non-humanoids in the wild in BG was essentially easy XP to farm without taking any reputation or alignment hit."
 

Well, for the most part, you were doing the world a favor eliminating  scumbag gnolls, dangerous giants spiders who target humanoids instead of tiny insects, or wild 9as opposed to non wild lol) basilisks so think of the xp as an award for making the world a safer place for the innocents who love to go for the stroll in the woods unmolested.

[Helm]

You won't take a reputation or alignment hit for killing the extremely hostile spiders and beetles (Lions too IIRC) in PoE either... But oh well, if you say so.

 

Hopefully you don't participate in more "degenerate behavior" and go on a killing spree to collect beetle bits (for crafting) in PoE.

[Leferd]

"You are the ones who believe that a player should get no xp for defeating a dragon in combat but believes a player should xp for helping a little girl find her dolly just ebcause she asked you to. L0LZ"

 

Replace dragon for an xvart. The dragon example is preposterous. Yes I should not get XP for randomly killing an xvart in the wild.

 

Random FedEx quest. Thank goodness we've seen a drop off in the amount of these quests, but yes, we should get XP for retrieving Hull's sword.

[Leferd]

You won't take a reputation or alignment hit for killing the extremely hostile spiders and beetles (Lions too IIRC) in PoE either... But oh well, if you say so.

 

Hopefully you don't participate in more "degenerate behavior" and go on a killing spree to collect beetle bits (for crafting) in PoE.

Still not clear what point you're trying to make as I'm not going out of my way to kill lions, beetles, or spiders. Would you care to make it more explicit rather than trying to be clever with your sarcasm?

[Volourn]

"Replace dragon for an xvart. The dragon example is preposterous."

 

How so?

 

 

 

"we should get XP for retrieving Hull's sword."
 

But, not the dragon (or pick a dangerous monster). Retrieving Hull's sword is not some huge challenge to the player/character skill, require zero thoguht or ability, doesn't add anything story wise either. It doesn't even advance anything. But, it's worth xp but the dragon isn't? COME ON.