Design a pickpocketing mechanic

[bronzepoem]

Although I know that a IE style pickpocketing won't occur in PoE, I still think it's worth to discuss it more. At least, could be a brainstorm.

 

In PoE,pickpocketing will work in scripted interaction.Maybe someone think it will do the same job.But in fact,there is a huge different between scripted interaction and IE mechanic.

 

IE mechanic is a open way, you can pickpocket anyone you like.That's a freely exploring procession.You can choice target by yourself, maybe this super-armed warrior,that lady wear luxurious clothes,or someone who lived in the beautiful house,something like that.Coordinating with the day and night circle,lighting system and sneak skill,whole the stealing procession chould be very challenging, Full of role-playing feature of rouge! Then add a good reward design, it will support great sense of achievement.

 

And pickpocketing could become part of combat. Like fallout, you can sneak into battlefield to steal enemy's potions or alternate weapon.with a good balance design,that could be a very strategic support to combat skill. 

 

In  scripted interaction,  when you meet a issue, dialogue tell you:"Come on,just steal this guy." Then you make an one second attribute check or skill check. Done.No freely exploring funny, no holding breath.

 

So,scripted interaction is more suitable to describe the content which can't be showed by IE mechanic.Like combat, scripted interaction can describe combat too. But we still need IE mechanic combat.

 

In my opinion, the best design of pickpocketing should be hybrid design,both IE mechanic and scripted interaction. Normally we use IE mechanic, in some "quest" situation or very complex situation, we use scripted interaction.

 

 

 

But maybe someone will say:I feel the IE pickpockting mechanic was boring in BG! Yes, I think so. It's not the problem of pickpockting mechanic, but the risk/reward design. The risk design of pickpocketing was very rough. When you failed,everyone attack you, so you must load game.It's neither real nor funny.

 

Why don't we design a C&C system here? Basicly,if the NPC be stolen is a common people with no arm, he will just run away and abuse you.If the guy is a combatant, he may attack you,or not,depend on personality. Anyway,the battle won't involve common NPCs(otherwise it's a barbarian village~)

 

In an orderly city,the C&C will be a little different.The NPC victim will call guards,and the guards will judge you. You can choice accpet or revolt.Only you revolt the judgement ,the situation will be the worst, just like in BG.

 

The judgement depend on your "crime point".Every time you failed in pickpocketing,the "crime point" in Dispositions system will increase. When it is very low, the judgement will only warning and a small amount fine.When it become higher, judgement could be big fine,or imprison(You can break prison, another serious crime).When the crime point become very high, you will become a wanted.Then you will find your wanted papers on the wall,and be pursued by guards,Bounty Hunters,even some famous heros with epic eqiupments(also means epic loot ).Maybe some of your compinions want to leave you, some criminal gangs want to recuit you,and support some assumed identities.

 

Then the reward design,it not bad in BG,but still not perfect.Usually the reward were money and equipment.But we could add a few new stuff, for example,an item lead to a new quest, or some item which show you more information(useful,or just for fun).

 

Above is the basic C&C on my mind.Then let's add a few quirks.For example, when you pickpocketing a rouge master.Maybe his reaction is just laugh at you.For more funny, maybe he put a scorpion in pocket.When you fail, you get hurt.If you success, the IE pickpockting mechanic will lead to a scripted interaction:You find there is a scorpion in the pocket.You can choice just leave away,or catch the scorpion and throw it to the poor guy's neck. That's the place I would admire great scripted interaction design.

 

Additional,the "you get what you see" design will be great help too. When you see a guy carry a beautiful pike on his back, the items you can steal from him should include this pike.That's why we always feel funny in Fallout pickpocketing.

Edited July 29, 2014 by bronzepoem

[artyom]

Spoken like a true thief. +1

[Leferd]

Bronzepoem, you've obviously put a lot of thought into this, but I'm not sure it'll quite work for the game.

Mainly, it has to do with allocating resources into a complicated mechanic that will not see much use.

 

Let's face it, most players will not role play an Artful Dodger type thief in a tactical, combat oriented, party based RPG.

 

It may make sense however, if the player character is already pre-defined as a thiefy rogue type with Pickpocketing as a featured and central game mechanic - or if the game was centered around your playing a thief character.

 

As Eternity stands, thematically the game is not consistent with your party being a gang of small time, petty purse snatchers.

 

Instituting a sufficient risk-reward platform for a mechanic that will take up quite a lot of resources with relatively minimal adoption by the player base isn't something that Obsidian could probably afford on their budget.

 

And really though, if I was in combat with monsters and enemies armed with spears, war hammers, and matchlocks...last thing I'd be thinking about is how I can reverse pickpocket a live grenade to a guy who is actively trying to cut me into pieces. It was a fun mechanic in Fallout, but that was really just a novelty.

 

Still, good idea though - for a thief centric RPG!

[Zwiebelchen]

With the pick-your-own-adventure system, I think pickpocketing will be a lot better as in any game that used the sandbox approach to pickpocketing.

 

There simply is no real way to make the risk vs. reward formula of sandbox-pickpocketing attractive without sacrificing the immersion. There's flaws left and right:

- If you go for a system where guards or npcs attack you or arrest you, it makes no sense especially on critical paths, as story-related npcs have to be immune in order to not break the game progression

- a real justice system just doesn't work, because how are you going to punish the player for their wrongdoings without totally destroying the game? Besides, it would be a lot of required content for very few people, so it's most likely not worth the production resources.

- If you go for "you have to reload if you fail" approach, then why have a chance to failure at all? Just disable pickpocketing for npcs that require a too high skill level

- No reaction from the NPC if you fail is equally as bad

 

 

I feel that pickpocketing in scripted interactions is the most immersive and rewarding way to design a pickpocketing mechanic. This way, every encounter and every NPC you can pickpocket can have a proper scripted reaction to your attempt. Some might call guards, some might attack you, some you might convince to leave you go, etc. ... when viewing it from a roleplaying perspective, scripted interactions are the way to go.

 

A combat mechanic to pickpocketing would be okay... but that would more be what I call "disarming" and should imho be a seperate skill.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Zwiebelchen

[bronzepoem]

Bronzepoem, you've obviously put a lot of thought into this, but I'm not sure it'll quite work for the game.

Mainly, it has to do with allocating resources into a complicated mechanic that will not see much use.

 

Let's face it, most players will not role play an Artful Dodger type thief in a tactical, combat oriented, party based RPG.

 

It may make sense however, if the player character is already pre-defined as a thiefy rogue type with Pickpocketing as a featured and central game mechanic - or if the game was centered around your playing a thief character.

 

As Eternity stands, thematically the game is not consistent with your party being a gang of small time, petty purse snatchers.

 

Instituting a sufficient risk-reward platform for a mechanic that will take up quite a lot of resources with relatively minimal adoption by the player base isn't something that Obsidian could probably afford on their budget.

 

And really though, if I was in combat with monsters and enemies armed with spears, war hammers, and matchlocks...last thing I'd be thinking about is how I can reverse pickpocket a live grenade to a guy who is actively trying to cut me into pieces. It was a fun mechanic in Fallout, but that was really just a novelty.

 

Still, good idea though - for a thief centric RPG!

 

Yes，budget, the damn budget, I know.

In fact,it depends. If we remove the "Wanted" content，you will find the budget will decrease to a super low level.

What do we need for this risk-reward platform:

1.Several abuse dialogues. 

2.The personality setting.All we need to do just add one sentence in the program for these important NPCs :"Reacting as being attacked when be  pickpocketed, or link to abuse dialogues. " 

3.Reward items. They are already there! Because PoE allow freely attack, there must be a looting setting for many NPCs.We just need to take the part" items in inventory" from looting.

 

OK,that's all for the basic.I'm sure Josh can finish it within 1 hour.

 

Then,the city setting.We can limit it in the big two cities. Then all we need is just a couple of guards,two new maps(prisons),several judgements dialogues. The Disposition platform was already there, just add a "crime" word which only link to guards.How hard could it be! I think Obsidian could finish this job within 2 or 3 days.

So we finished~ A very low budget, which pleasure 2 of 11 gamers (Rouges and Chanters).That's a cost-efficient deal!

 

About the "Wanted" content, yes,they are more expansive.So since I‘m not a billionaire who can plegde 1 million more,the only wish will be that we could see it in an expansion，or at least，in mod  Imagine  that，a huge, dark prison in the eastern desert,which only keep the wanted, terrible murderers, conspirators，most dangerous persons on the land.You have been thrown here by a famous hero.Now you need to get out the hopeless place，a sneak job，a desperate fighting，or to incite a  prison violence, depends on your choice. In the deepest cell，a “monster” is locked in.Children will cry when hear his name.You can try to release him, challenge him,or even persuade him，to become one your companion. That's a good expansion! Also I like the "criminal gangs" idea,in a dark room, the mask lord using his unique technique  to change your face forever.  Then all your reputation in  Disposition system back to zero.A second chance. Maybe add some quests to buy the guard leader.

 

Sorry，my imagination went wild. Come back to the combat part. It's my fault didn’t express myself clearly. What I mean was that, for example, you want to offensive a castle，which is neutral to you.You can send your rouge sneak in and steal the guard leader‘s magic bastard sword.Then you can start your attack, and turn this place into battlefield. Of course not to pickpocketing a enemy with red circle.  

Edited July 30, 2014 by bronzepoem

[Lephys]

Sorry，my imagination went wild. Come back to the combat part. It's my fault didn’t express myself clearly. What I mean was that, for example, you want to offensive a castle，which is neutral to you.You can send your rouge sneak in and steal the guard leader‘s magic bastard sword.Then you can start your attack, and turn this place into battlefield. Of course not to pickpocketing a enemy with red circle.  

See, for what it's worth, that could actually be pretty cool, too. If you have a Rogue, then maybe you can run some kind of stealth operations on enemy forces, etc. via the stronghold management and/or scripted interactions. However, that's still very much specifically scripted scenarios, and not just "I want to actively control my Rogue around the whole castle, randomly pickpocketing every person I come across." It's still not really sandbox pickpocketing. At the very least, it's a quest, one in which the only important thing is separating the guard leader from his magic sword that would otherwise prevent you from staging your assault very easily.

 

Nothing is really gained there by having a "Freely attempt to pickpocket anyone, whenever!" mechanic in-place. Also, it's really hard to pick"pocket" a bastard sword. If it's strapped to someone, you're going to have a tough time stealing it. Maybe you steal it while he's nodding off and it's propped against a table 2 feet away? Or maybe you just knock him out and take it. *shrug*.

 

Either way, stealth operations would be pretty cool, and could be handled by something similar to the scripted interactions. Or, a quest-like mission with your Rogue and some peeps from your stronghold to back him up. Or just your main party, etc.

[JFSOCC]

from ages ago: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63542-idea-link-stats-with-gameplay-for-pickpocketing/

[bronzepoem]

 

- a real justice system just doesn't work, because how are you going to punish the player for their wrongdoings without totally destroying the game? Besides, it would be a lot of required content for very few people, so it's most likely not worth the production resources.

 

 

You made two basic mistakes here.

1. A good designed RPG will never be "destroyed" by players. If a game could be "destroyed" by players,it just means there aren't enough consequences for players' choices.please throw it into garbage can.

2. A good designer will never "punish" players. It's the "NPCs in the game" Who want to punish you.The designers?They only support consequences and fun.

 

Let's review this interview to Obsidian：

“Theoretically, you could,” replies senior producer Brandon Adler, chuckling. “Normally if you attack a villager, they would all go hostile and kinda **** you up. You can kill [important quest-givers] too. It’s possible that we could change that, but right now, everybody is fair game. So if you kill somebody that’s key to a quest, you’ll probably get a screen pop-up saying, ‘You killed an important NPC’ or something like that. But there’s only a few people in the game that are that important where if you killed them you’d just kill the entire quest line. And for the most part, we’re getting around that. If you kill someone, we might just divert the quest in a different way. We’re trying to handle it pretty gracefully.”

 

 

Even free attack won't destroy PoE,what's can pickpocketing do?!  In fact, free attack is one kind of gameplay,"rage" role-play.That's why Obsidian design try to "handle it pretty gracefully".You said "Immune"?I guess you just didn't play Fallout2.

MCA  said, "We’re not trying to control you. Play how you want." If a game always tell players:"Do this,this is right.That is wrong,don't do that otherwise I will punish you."This is not a game,but a training.

 

 

In a real justice system,those normal gamers will feel："there are guards in the city，so I shouldn't pickpocketing. Wow,what's a real world! "And thief role players will feel:"Wow，funny consequence！Let’s challenge the law！"Win-win design. Nothing lose.

 

 

A real justice system must be work,if you think deeply.

 

Edited August 1, 2014 by bronzepoem

[bronzepoem]

 

Sorry，my imagination went wild. Come back to the combat part. It's my fault didn’t express myself clearly. What I mean was that, for example, you want to offensive a castle，which is neutral to you.You can send your rouge sneak in and steal the guard leader‘s magic bastard sword.Then you can start your attack, and turn this place into battlefield. Of course not to pickpocketing a enemy with red circle.  

See, for what it's worth, that could actually be pretty cool, too. If you have a Rogue, then maybe you can run some kind of stealth operations on enemy forces, etc. via the stronghold management and/or scripted interactions. However, that's still very much specifically scripted scenarios, and not just "I want to actively control my Rogue around the whole castle, randomly pickpocketing every person I come across." It's still not really sandbox pickpocketing. At the very least, it's a quest, one in which the only important thing is separating the guard leader from his magic sword that would otherwise prevent you from staging your assault very easily.

 

Nothing is really gained there by having a "Freely attempt to pickpocket anyone, whenever!" mechanic in-place. Also, it's really hard to pick"pocket" a bastard sword. If it's strapped to someone, you're going to have a tough time stealing it. Maybe you steal it while he's nodding off and it's propped against a table 2 feet away? Or maybe you just knock him out and take it. *shrug*.

 

Either way, stealth operations would be pretty cool, and could be handled by something similar to the scripted interactions. Or, a quest-like mission with your Rogue and some peeps from your stronghold to back him up. Or just your main party, etc.

 

 

Yes,of course! I love scripted interactions.I love those thieve quests.So that's why I imagine this HYBRID pickpocketing system!

Please understand me.In my idea, of course you will get all these quests and scripted interactions.NOTHING will be lost.Only more.

Edited August 2, 2014 by bronzepoem

[Lephys]

Yes,of course! I love scripted interactions.I love those thieve quests.So that's why I imagine this HYBRID pickpocketing system!

Please understand me.In my idea, of course you will get all these quests and scripted interactions.NOTHING will be lost.Only more.

Be that as it may, there's just only so much "more"ness we can add to the game. There's all kinds of stuff I think would be amazing, but I comprehend the amount of priority they placed on something like this within the context of the rest of the game's design. Sandbox pickpocketing, while really fun, isn't really enhancing what else is already in the game. Especially alongside hand-placed scripted-interaction/dialogue pickpocketing.

 

Also, while it's pretty similar, in concept, to being able to kill whomever you wish, killing people in the game is already functionally implemented, thanks to combat. Whereas, with pickpocketing, the only thing in the game that would use that mechanic would be sandbox pickpocketing.

 

I don't think it's bad, and I'm not telling you not to want it in general or anything. I love the whole "you can pretty much try to do anything" aspect of PnP D&D, for example. But, in that, you have a DM who can adapt to what you're deciding to do, with whatever consequences he wishes. If you got into a D&D session, and just tried to kill everyone in existence, and/or steal from all of them, what would be the point in playing D&D at all?