Icewind Dale 2

[Michael_Galt]

Okay, so, I am well aware of the fact that they are pretty far into the development at this point, and probably very little will change. Also, this will not be D&D.  And, I've been reading all the updates and generally staying on top of the interviews and all that.  I would just like to say that I am finally (was finally?) playing Icewind Dale 2, since I have heard lots of references by various developers about how it was an inspiration.  So, that being said, I want to just say what I did and did not like in ID 2 (I will preface this with the fact that I am only in the 2nd chapter, which is why I am writing this, actually).

 

What I like:

 

- Lots of sub-classes available (Priest of Tempus, Lathander, Helm, Mystra, etc). This might not dramatically alter the game play, or even the selected class, but it is nice to be able to think, "Yes, I am a priest of __, therefore, this is why I am doing/not doing this."  I don't believe that prestige classes are available, but that would only make it better.  I like to be able to hypothetically play a particular class multiple times, and in the end, have a character that plays totally differently and has different and distinct strengths and weaknesses.  I believe they said something about this, in reference to paladins and maybe monks, but don't recall for the other classes.  I would love if they incorporated sub-classes.

 

- You don't have a protagonist that is the only one that people address.  I don't feel that you should have to be the "super special person that will __ from the __." 

 

What would be even better, though maybe borderline impossible (though, I don't think so), is if people actually only addressed party members based on relevant information available.  For instance, let's say you encounter a mage which is looking for someone to do something for him.  Would he talk to your ale swigging barbarian about this (supposing this is your protagonist, or even not assuming that), or would he look for the closest thing to a mage (ie. cipher, chanter, etc)?  Obviously, if there was literally no one in your party with no apparent magical ability or knowledge, sure, he might talk to your barbarian, for lack of options. 

 

I liked how you could chose to have your ultra-high charisma sorceror go talk to them, because they are extremely charismatic, while maybe you send your tank to go intimidate the band of mercenaries.  I have never liked when I have had someone in my party that would be better suited to doing a certain task, but not having the game give me a method to incorporate this into the gameplay.  So, maybe idiot man is responsible for talking to the important diplomat, even though I have someone in the party that should be extremely competent at something like that.  Maybe it could be something like in Mass Effect.  If it is your protagonist doing the talking, just like in most cRPGs, you could select exactly what he/she will say.  But, maybe you get the option, "Let NPC __ do the talking for you", in which case, they will say whatever they have been scripted to say, and you don't get to control that, maybe only reply after that (or, maybe not- maybe it becomes a form of Russian Roulette or the lottery, where you either like what they say and it really helps, or, it ends up being a disaster, but there isn't much you can do to fix it (since you made the decision to let them talk or to do the task).

 

This should perhaps be a separate thread...

 

- Lots of feats. I like that you could make a sneaky mage.  I know that they will be doing something similar.  This makes me happy.

 

What I didn't like:

 

- So LINEAR. I like a good story.  I like to feel like there is some sort of sense of gravity to certain things.  At times, I like to feel pressured.  I do not like being stuck in a specific area that I can not leave until I have completed every mission/quest/objective there.  I do not like the fact that I have played the game for hours, and have literally only seen one little town/village.  I do not like having to be in constant battle.  I know that some of these things won't apply to Pillars of Eternity.  I just really don't want to be spending the majority of the game without being able to go to other cities, and feeling compelled to only concentrate on __ until it is done, always.  That is why I probably am not going to continue playing ID 2.  I don't feel like slogging through even more of the temple where I am, because I went online, and saw that I have 2 levels left, and they are just chock full of tough fights.  I don't want to spend another who knows how many hours fighting in essentially the same place, so that at the end I can say I cleared out a massive temple complex of every monster in it.

 

- Scripted events.  These really bugged me in Dragon Age, and BG 1.  I am highly unappreciative of when you force my entire party into an ambush and/or dialogue, when I had my non-detection rogue/ranger scouting the area so that I could plan how I was going to approach it.  I do not like that ONE BIT.  Scripted events should only be non-combat related, or perhaps based on internal timelines, like the dreams with Irenicus in BG 2, or perhaps encounters that will naturally happen in certain areas at certain times.  But, I don't like magic, "let's see if they can survive THIS" events, which make no logical sense.

 

Offhand, I think that is it.  What do you guys think? Similar gripes, or totally different things?

[Ink Blot]

I don't know. On the one hand, I enjoyed some subclasses, but on the other I think there comes a point where the amount of 'subs' starts to get a little ridiculous. I believe the system in PoE is going to have the ability to build your character using feats/talents that will give you the chance to kind of create your own subclass in the class you've chosen to play. I like this idea better than something more strict and walled in.

 

I like a party, but I also like a protagonist in the sense that I create the party leader (or what i consider the leader). I don't, however, particularly enjoy a system like BG where if the character I create goes down in battle then it's game over. If the whole party is wiped, well that's a different story.

 

NPC interactions: I don't want to see convo scripts fire that just choose the nearest party character to interact with the NPC (unless it makes sense for the particular situation). I want to see some choice in who deals with whom, but I believe this is the way Obs is designing it.

 

Scripted events: I'm with you there. I HATE when the game takes over, makes my party walk into an obvious trap for the convo with Mr. Big Bad and then has them standing in a completely vulnerable spot when the battle starts. DON'T take control of my party just for the cheesy purpose of making them vulnerable.

 

Linearity: PoE is supposedly going to be much more open than IWD2.

[Michael_Galt]

No, I'm aware of the fact that it is a bit more open- similar to ID 2 and Kotor, in that sense.  I mean, you have to select a class, but you then get to focus them how you want, and even learn things which are not strictly speaking related to that class.  But, as there will doubtlessly be factions and guilds, and religious orders, I would like the possibility of being affiliated with them, or to actually belong to them- that would make it more "immersive". 

 

I like having a protagonist- don't get me wrong.  I just don't like that the protagonist instantly becomes the most important character in the party for all things by default. 

 

As to the linearity thing, I know they have spoken about it sparingly.  I am fully confident we won't be railroaded.  I just really hope that it won't be a matter of "unlocking" what should be normal locations.  As in, I can join a merchant caravan to go to the other large city. Or I can hire a boat to take me up the river.  Or... etc, etc. I really don't like being stuck in a little playground, having to play with the same children and toys, when I know that there are other playgrounds with other children and toys...

[Sedrefilos]

IWD2 (and 1) where first dungeon crawlers and then rpgs. PE will (supposedly) be a mix of Baldur's Gates, Planescape Torment and Icewind Dales, with some new stuff so to be it's own thing.

[MasterPrudent]

I believe that Chris Avellone recently said that of all the IE games PoE most closely resembled Baldur's Gate. Although I'm not sure if he was referring to the series or the first game.

[PrimeJunta]

@OP: I agree with most of those. Storm of Zehir though did have a conversation system that does more or less what you describe—characters get lines depending on their characteristics (class, stats, skills), and you can switch freely between them in dialog. I loved it.

 

I didn't manage to finish IWD2 (er, yet), though. It wore me down. There's way too much filler and too many trash mobs; fighting the same enemies over and over again isn't fun, it's a chore. Many of the levels are also repetitive and rather bland in design; it doesn't have IWD 1's atmosphere nor variety, which are the main reasons I enjoyed playing that.

[Stun]

Offhand, I think that is it.  What do you guys think? Similar gripes, or totally different things?

Mostly the same. Especially the fully railed plot Linearity.

 

There are a couple of other things that I really didn't like about Icewind Dale 2. A couple of real gripes that hurt the game IMO.

 

1)Endlessly monotonous encounters. (I believe the modern term for this is "trash mobs".) And IWD2 is ~95% Trash mob encounters. You're in chapter 2 right now, so soon enough you will witness precisely what I'm talking about. You enter the ice temple. You encounter a small group of enemies. You kill them. Then you walk down the corridor and face the exact type of encounter...again. Lather, rinse and repeat. Over and Over. For hours on end. Every chapter.

 

2)Enemy loot drops are exceedingly dull. When you do kill that small group of enemies, you will be rewarded with..... ammunition. Bullets, arrows, bolts, throwing hammers. Or healing potions. Over and Over and Over. Bosses and named enemies tend to drop loot that's a little better. And of course, chests often contain decent loot. However, the best stuff by far is found in Shops. And while I understand the reasoning behind such a design, I dislike it. Loot *means* more when you have to fight for it. It means a whole lot less when you can just buy it from the village merchant.

 

Still, it says much about a game when one can cite such huge flaws in it and still rank it in the top-five-of-all-time list. It is incredibly fun to build characters in IWD2. Combat itself is superb. And IWD2 is unique in that it's the only D&D based game I have ever played that managed to maintain full, challenging tactical game play at the epic levels. When you "New Game+" in HoF mode, you get a challenging game that requires you to make full use of your high level skills and all the loot you hoarded from your last playthrough.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Stun

[Chilloutman]

@OP: I agree with most of those. Storm of Zehir though did have a conversation system that does more or less what you describe—characters get lines depending on their characteristics (class, stats, skills), and you can switch freely between them in dialog. I loved it.

 

I didn't manage to finish IWD2 (er, yet), though. It wore me down. There's way too much filler and too many trash mobs; fighting the same enemies over and over again isn't fun, it's a chore. Many of the levels are also repetitive and rather bland in design; it doesn't have IWD 1's atmosphere nor variety, which are the main reasons I enjoyed playing that.

 

Yeah I am still sad we will not have overland map and conversations same as in SoZ, those were truly best parts of that game

[Michael_Galt]

Well, good to see that I ended up in the same place as lots of other people.  I mean, I am purely a cRPG gamer, for computers.  I've played pretty much everything that has come out since 2000 which has come from Black Isle, Troika, Obsidian, or Bethesda.  Just can't get into IWD 2.  I would rather play BG or Arcanum again, and I have played either one of those, I don't even know how many times (both being from now non-existent companies).  I've managed the Kotors and Fallouts numerous times as well, though fewer times.  If Pillars of Eternity can be BG 3, with the art of IWD 2, and the interesting universe and moral decisions of Torment/Kotor 2, I will be quite happy.  I know, the bar isn't set nearly high enough