Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

of goblins and orcs..

orcs goblins halflings

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
232 replies to this topic

#221
Bryy

Bryy

    Arch-Mage

  • Members.
  • 2748 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Guys, please stop using these retarded 18 year old leftist words...racism, fascism, homophobia, whatever...!!

 

It's only about interests guys!! Rich Arabs and Jews get along very well!!! So called "racism" is created so that lower class workers can keep busy blaming each other instead of the real responsible which is global capital!! For fuk's sake stop it with these ready-made expressions used to categorize people!!

 

SKull very clearly sums it up: "...it is used to slander people and to stop the conversation."
 

These are expressions forced onto the population, especially on young 18 year old middle class western populations, to lock the conversation, prevent people from questioning and actually using their brains..

... wow, you're completely serious.


  • Namutree likes this

#222
GhoulishVisage

GhoulishVisage

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 204 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
In the Elder Scrolls, this also affected their magical capabilities. It could very well be that they just wanted Redguards to be less magically inclined. So, yeah, it is awkward... that in that stat system, you can't have a lot of intelligence and willpower and be magically disinclined.

I dunno, maybe the people at Bethesda are huge racists. I'm not going to assume that, though, because I have no idea what their intentions were there. I can only consider the possibilities, instead of just one of them.

 

Intentional or not, the only race of black people in the game are a bunch of muscular warriors with a racial modifier that lowers intelligence.

That's a rather unfortunate set of attributes and lore they have there.
I don't think there were any malicious feelings or ill-will behind that. Likely they just wanted the Redguards to be good with weapons and bad with magic.
However, even five seconds of critical thinking on the part of someone at Bethesda should have made them think "Hey, this isn't our intention, but it really could imply the wrong things."

Regardless, I'm not someone to get offended at stuff. In fact I found it rather amusing, and the likely innocent explanation behind it doubly so.
I just posted it in this thread because it seemed appropriate to the subject at hand.


  • anameforobsidian likes this

#223
Stun

Stun

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2857 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Intentional or not, the only race of black people in the game are a bunch of muscular warriors with a racial modifier that lowers intelligence.

The Dunmer would disagree with your notion that Redguards are the only race of black people in the Elder Scrolls.

If Bethesda was really trying to backhandedly play off of racist stereotypes, I'm not seeing it. For one thing, those Intelligence and Willpower penalties no longer exist (skyrim does not use an attribute system). Also, Redguards are not portrayed as muscular brutes. They're more like Exotic Middle Eastern warriors who employ finesse-based fighting styles (they dual-wield their scimitars...and they wear head scarves) Lastly, We're talking about a world that has Beast Races. A dark skinned human brute still looks human. The same cannot be said for Muscular Lizardmen assassin brutes, or...you know...Furry Cat People who stab you in the back then burglarize your home.

Edited by Stun, 08 August 2014 - 07:19 PM.

  • Karkarov, PieSnatcher and Namutree like this

#224
anameforobsidian

anameforobsidian

    (8) Warlock

  • Members
  • 1174 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

They portrayed obviously Black people as inherently good at athletics and dumber than average.  In America, Black people have been portrayed this way for a long time, because it helped salve the conscience of people keeping them in chains.  They were just doing what they were naturally good at.  Don't just believe me.  Here is an actual quote from an actual American president in the last half century.

 

When the first wave of studies were published purporting to show that blacks have lower IQs than whites, Nixon, in a conversation with domestic aide Daniel Patrick Moynihan, said he “couldn’t agree more” with the findings. The president was quite generous on the subject of what black people were good at: “Athletics isn’t a bad achievement. You look at the World Series. What would Pittsburgh be without a hell of a lot of blacks?” But he was far less charitable when it came to black talent in other areas: “… when you get to some of the more shall we say profound, rigid disciplines, basically, they have a hell of a time makin’ it. …

 

It was a mistake that had quite a racist tone, and they corrected it.  As they should have.  That's all.  Ignoring the fact that it was profoundly racist doesn't do any good; neither does getting angry at Bethesda for an unconscious mistake they made that they've rectified.  But that's all I'm going to say about that.

 

 

Anyways, about orcs.  I still haven't seen a good counter for the point that there are better stand-ins for the social and historical rolls they've played in the past.  I don't see anything in the setting that orcs could do better than either Orlans and Aumua.  They're unnecessary, and removing the unnecessary is an incredibly important part of creation.  I've yet to see what good orcs could do.



#225
Stun

Stun

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2857 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

They portrayed obviously Black people as inherently good at athletics and dumber than average.


It was a mistake that had quite a racist tone, and they corrected it. As they should have. That's all. Ignoring the fact that it was profoundly racist doesn't do any good; neither does getting angry at Bethesda for an unconscious mistake they made that they've rectified. But that's all I'm going to say about that.

As someone with passing knowledge of both Oblivion gameplay mechanics, and Elder Scrolls lore that predates that silly cartoon pic on the last page by about 20 years, I'm not going to concede that it was a mistake. First of all, *Nords* in Oblivion (ie. White people) also receive a -10 Intelligence penalty.

It is precisely as Lephys pointed out: Bethesda's lore dictates that these races not excel at magic...which is reserved for white and black ELVES.

Second, Redguards are heroic warriors with strict moral codes. they're basically the game's Paladins. This is a significant point, because their white counterparts (NORDS) are routinely portrayed in the gameworld as the opposite of that. They live for battle, then they go back to their mead halls and get drunk.

Edited by Stun, 08 August 2014 - 07:51 PM.

  • Karkarov and Namutree like this

#226
Macrae

Macrae

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 54 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

 

Guys, please stop using these retarded 18 year old leftist words...racism, fascism, homophobia, whatever...!!

 

It's only about interests guys!! Rich Arabs and Jews get along very well!!! So called "racism" is created so that lower class workers can keep busy blaming each other instead of the real responsible which is global capital!! For fuk's sake stop it with these ready-made expressions used to categorize people!!

 

SKull very clearly sums it up: "...it is used to slander people and to stop the conversation."
 

These are expressions forced onto the population, especially on young 18 year old middle class western populations, to lock the conversation, prevent people from questioning and actually using their brains..

... wow, you're completely serious.

 

 

My point is proven, you've brought no arguments to debate, just "wow you can't be serious omg!"

The "racism" thinking is stopping people from using intelligence...

Last time the race card was used to fool everyone, and I agree even I fell for it (but it was the last time), was for the election for obama...

Man we all believed that ****, thought something would change, I remember his speech in cairo, I was really hopeful....he really is a good actor, he's got the charisma..

In the end, it was all marketing for the fools...reality is not "a black guy president is better than a southern wasp texan", this is the way "anti-racist" ideology presents things, but reality is: military industrial complex and goldman sachs owns politicians, and if you don't understand that and keep on playing the race card, you're just falling for their game, you're being a fool...

------

And coming back to the subject of orcs, it is pretty obvious that an "anti-racist" criticism of tolkien's orcs is a very anachronic and unrational thing. It would be like criticizing ancient athenians for slavery and no votes for women, preventing you from seeing what was great about it, which was the great and still unmatched democratic system they had..

So yeah criticizing tolkien as being "racist" is very out of context and anachronic (and wrong of course)..


  • NWN_babaYaga likes this

#227
nikolokolus

nikolokolus

    Bridge Troll of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1165 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

god dammit, can we get back to talking about elf games? 



#228
Bryy

Bryy

    Arch-Mage

  • Members.
  • 2748 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

I can understand being a conspiracy theorist, but I cannot wrap my head around how someone can actually think discrimination based on race, gender, sexual preference does not exist.

 

And, I mean, this topic is about orcs and goblins. The most discriminated against species in fantasy fiction. 


  • ashtonw and Namutree like this

#229
BruceVC

BruceVC

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4359 posts
  • Location:Johannesburg, South Africa
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

 

 

Guys, please stop using these retarded 18 year old leftist words...racism, fascism, homophobia, whatever...!!

 

It's only about interests guys!! Rich Arabs and Jews get along very well!!! So called "racism" is created so that lower class workers can keep busy blaming each other instead of the real responsible which is global capital!! For fuk's sake stop it with these ready-made expressions used to categorize people!!

 

SKull very clearly sums it up: "...it is used to slander people and to stop the conversation."
 

These are expressions forced onto the population, especially on young 18 year old middle class western populations, to lock the conversation, prevent people from questioning and actually using their brains..

... wow, you're completely serious.

 

 

My point is proven, you've brought no arguments to debate, just "wow you can't be serious omg!"

The "racism" thinking is stopping people from using intelligence...

Last time the race card was used to fool everyone, and I agree even I fell for it (but it was the last time), was for the election for obama...

Man we all believed that ****, thought something would change, I remember his speech in cairo, I was really hopeful....he really is a good actor, he's got the charisma..

In the end, it was all marketing for the fools...reality is not "a black guy president is better than a southern wasp texan", this is the way "anti-racist" ideology presents things, but reality is: military industrial complex and goldman sachs owns politicians, and if you don't understand that and keep on playing the race card, you're just falling for their game, you're being a fool...

------

And coming back to the subject of orcs, it is pretty obvious that an "anti-racist" criticism of tolkien's orcs is a very anachronic and unrational thing. It would be like criticizing ancient athenians for slavery and no votes for women, preventing you from seeing what was great about it, which was the great and still unmatched democratic system they had..

So yeah criticizing tolkien as being "racist" is very out of context and anachronic (and wrong of course)..

 

 

Here is an interesting consideration for you, is something anachronistic if it is relevant and still impacts people? Take homophobia and racism, If you believe these don't exist in American culture on some levels  then you are right. Its silly to discuss them because what's the point. But just the fact that many states in the USA don't even allow same sex marriage can we say that true equality and non-discrimination exists in the USA? You tell me.....



#230
Namutree

Namutree

    Compulsive Double Poster of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1711 posts
  • Location:Michigan
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

My point is proven, you've brought no arguments to debate, just "wow you can't be serious omg!"

 

 

The "racism" thinking is stopping people from using intelligence...
 

Not debating with some one spouting nonsense does not prove that nonsense is true.

 

 

Man we all believed that ****, thought something would change, I remember his speech in cairo, I was really hopeful....he really is a good actor, he's got the charisma..
 

Speak for yourself. I followed the 2008 election very closely and Obama laid out his agenda then. Since being elected he has in no meaningful way strayed from his original platform. If Obama isn't what you were expecting; it means you weren't paying attention to him. Obama is not an actor; he is the president of the United States of America, and deserves more respect than what you are showing him.

 

 

In the end, it was all marketing for the fools...reality is not "a black guy president is better than a southern wasp texan", this is the way "anti-racist" ideology presents things.

What was marketing for fools? The Obama campaign? Anti-racist ideology does not present things because only people make presentations. Also, if anyone thought, "a black guy president is better than a southern wasp texan"; I can say with confidence they are not anti-racist. 


  • BruceVC, Bryy and anameforobsidian like this

#231
BruceVC

BruceVC

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4359 posts
  • Location:Johannesburg, South Africa
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

 

My point is proven, you've brought no arguments to debate, just "wow you can't be serious omg!"

 

 

The "racism" thinking is stopping people from using intelligence...
 

Not debating with some one spouting nonsense does not prove that nonsense is true.

 

 

Man we all believed that ****, thought something would change, I remember his speech in cairo, I was really hopeful....he really is a good actor, he's got the charisma..
 

Speak for yourself. I followed the 2008 election very closely and Obama laid out his agenda then. Since being elected he has in no meaningful way strayed from his original platform. If Obama isn't what you were expecting; it means you weren't paying attention to him. Obama is not an actor; he is the president of the United States of America, and deserves more respect than what you are showing him.

 

 

In the end, it was all marketing for the fools...reality is not "a black guy president is better than a southern wasp texan", this is the way "anti-racist" ideology presents things.

What was marketing for fools? The Obama campaign? Anti-racist ideology does not present things because only people make presentations. Also, if anyone thought, "a black guy president is better than a southern wasp texan"; I can say with confidence they are not anti-racist. 

 

 

As an outsider who works for an American company and travels to America normally once a year I also think Obama has been one of the best presidents the USA has ever had. I know this view isn't shared by many Americans on these forums but I am confident history will remember his presidency in a positive way. I think the guy is sincere and inspirational


  • Bryy likes this

#232
Bryy

Bryy

    Arch-Mage

  • Members.
  • 2748 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Also, anyone knows if these races are out of this game or out of this universe entirely?

Race to describe different types of humans/species is not fiction. That's like asking if gender is out of the game.

 

But then again, you did make a thread asking if you could kill the female members of your party. So there's that.


Edited by Bryy, 08 August 2014 - 09:38 PM.


#233
TrueNeutral

TrueNeutral

    Forum Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 2670 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands
  • Steam:funderbunk

Gone too far off topic. If you want to dicuss it further you can make a thread about racism in Way Off Topic, or a thread about racism in video games in Computer and Console.


  • SqueakyCat, Karkarov, Doppelschwert and 3 others like this





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: orcs, goblins, halflings

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users