Lephys Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 So you're taking the parties and clubs with skimpy dressed females as the standard of how women dress in all settings of real life and how they should be portrayed in all settings of video games? You ignore every other possible occasion where you meet females who aren't dressed with skimpy clothes but are still very attractive? Okay. Nope. Some women in real life obviously don't adhere to the standard of how to dress, so why expect all women in a reality-based fictional world to do so? I would expect some female characters in a game to be sexualized and not follow dressing standards. Just like I don't expect everyone in the world to kill everyone else and loot their corpses. But I expect some people to be bandits. Variety is the spice of life. Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u
Darji Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) In Summer in Germany even at my university i see more revealing outfits. Were do you life? Dubai? Iran? Also we met her at a TAVERN. A bar a club in todays language. We do not meet her on the fields or at some marketplace selling groceries... Also I love how you try to judge people by what they are wearing. Who here is the sexist?... If its her personality who are you to tell that this is wrong? As for the Name. I always think of her as a Spanish name and then it should be Isabella since I never saw the name Isabela in spanish XD LMAO. Here's a clue if you didn't realise already and I'm pretty sure it's gone way over your head. I'm not a feminist and I said I wasn't taking a feminist stand. I already said I was pointing out the feminist stand to Bruce who admits he is a feminist. Get it now? No Hiro that is not how Feminists think. This is how a sex negative Feminist thinks. As I said before there are a lot of different types of Feminists out there. There is no generally example of the "perfect" feminist. There is a lot of arguing in between as well. You really need to understand this. I am not even really fond of feminists in general because I think it is an outdated believe full of stigmata but even I know that much^^ Edited July 24, 2014 by Darji
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 No Hiro that is not how Feminist think. This is how sex negative Feminist think. As I said before there are a lot of different types of Feminists out there. There is no generally example of the "perfect" feminist. There is a lot of arguing in between as well. On what is sexist and what not etc. You really need to understand this. I am not even really fond of feminists in general because I think it is an outdated believe full of stigmata but even I know that much^^ So are you a feminist? Also can you show me a link where a feminist is okay with the sexualisation of females in video games?
Darji Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) No Hiro that is not how Feminist think. This is how sex negative Feminist think. As I said before there are a lot of different types of Feminists out there. There is no generally example of the "perfect" feminist. There is a lot of arguing in between as well. On what is sexist and what not etc. You really need to understand this. I am not even really fond of feminists in general because I think it is an outdated believe full of stigmata but even I know that much^^ So are you a feminist? Also can you show me a link where a feminist is okay with the sexualisation of females in video games? No I am not. And yeah if I search I can find a lot of feminists who do not agree with someone like Anita or her views for example. Also I believe this is becoming way off topic. Maybe we should rather argue in a different thread than this one^^ Edited July 24, 2014 by Darji
Elerond Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 This is Isabella On many parties or clubs this is nothing compared to what women are wearing. So you're taking the parties and clubs with skimpy dressed females as the standard of how women dress in all settings of real life and how they should be portrayed in all settings of video games? You ignore every other possible occasion where you meet females who aren't dressed with skimpy clothes but are still very attractive? Okay. In Summer in Germany even at my university i see more revealing outfits. Were do you life? Dubai? Iran? Also we met her at a TAVERN. A bar a club in todays language. We do not meet her on the fields or at some marketplace selling groceries... Also I love how you try to judge people by what they are wearing. Who here is the sexist?... If its her personality who are you to tell that this is wrong? This is how the character was written. If it were a shy and socially awkward character and then wears something like that. Than yeah you can totally argue that it is wrong. But with a personality liker her? Not really. As for the Name. I always think of her as a Spanish name and then it should be Isabella since I never saw the name Isabela in spanish XD Isabela is Spanish name, that etymological meaning is "God is my oath", it is variant of Hebrew name Isabel, English variant of name is Elizabeth, in Spanish there are four other variant forms for it: Isabella, Isobella, Izabella, Ysabella. (source Think Baby Names). Although Isabella seems to be most popular variant of the name. 1
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 Nope. Some women in real life obviously don't adhere to the standard of how to dress, so why expect all women in a reality-based fictional world to do so? I would expect some female characters in a game to be sexualized and not follow dressing standards. Just like I don't expect everyone in the world to kill everyone else and loot their corpses. But I expect some people to be bandits. Variety is the spice of life. Gotta love this justification of sexualisation of females NPCs in video games. And that's what you expect with females NPCs. Well hey, these females don't adhere to standards of how to dress in real life so it's okay to put them in a video game and romance those sexualised female NPCs.
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) No I am not. And yeah if I search I can find a lot of feminists who do not agree with someone like Anita or her views for example. Also I believe this is becoming way off topic. Maybe we should rather argue in a different thread than this one^^ Please do show us those feminists who are all for sexualised NPCs in video games. You said there's a lot, so it shouldn't be too hard. Edited July 24, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II
PrimeJunta Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) There's actually an interesting tangent here, and also some terminological confusion. What Sarkeesian and other sensible people are objecting to is objectification: portraying women as objects you want to possess rather than subjects you want to be. The term "sexualization" is usually used about children: characters you would not usually—and, most people agree, should not—consider in sexual terms. I.e. "sexualization of [adult] women" is kind of nonsensical. Objectification OTOH is an issue, and in fact one reason I dislike romance-as-minigame is that it is intrinsically objectifying, since it turns your "LI" into a prize to be won. ("What about teh menz?!?" I hear you ask. Objectification of men is not as toxic as objectification of women simply because it's far less pervasive. Popular culture objectifies women constantly, everywhere, all the time, whereas it objectifies men only rarely. I'd even argue that objectification wouldn't be a problem at all if it wasn't the default way of portraying one particular gender. If pop culture was a more or less even mix of subjects and objects irrespective of gender, it would not make life difficult for one particular group of people the way it does now.) SJW out. Edited July 24, 2014 by PrimeJunta 3 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 I agree PrimeJunta and my original post has sexualisation leading into objectification which is what this is all about. 1
Lephys Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) Gotta love this justification of sexualisation of females NPCs in video games. You don't really have to love it. You could hate it, if you wish. And it's just the justification for the "sexualization" (as you insist on calling it, as if the developers are taking pre-existing, perfectly un-sexual NPCs and unnaturally twisting them into the resulting NPC) of some number of female NPCs throughout the entire world's populous of NPCs. Hey look, there's a brothel in the city. OMG! The real world NEVER had brothels! *gasp* We've sexualized those poor, virtual women, rather than just represented something that really exists, and people that really exist! *ultra gasp*! @PrimeJunta: That's a good point. I don't like people actually objectifying women, but the problem I have with the typical view of the "objectification" of women in video games is that, most of the time, it just means "sexy = objectification." Which is what's happening here. Hiro won't rest until we say that absolutely no NPC, ever, is allowed to be sexy and sexually expressive, or they've been objectified. As if real-life people can't enjoy sexual attraction and all that jazz and appreciate their own forms and beauty without somehow wrongly encouraging all other people to treat them like objects. It's a huge stereotype that doesn't distinguish enough. I like teh sexy females, but that doesn't mean I want them in games strictly to support my idea that women are objects. Video game women are literally (digital) objects, and yet I still feel the desire, while immersedin the game/in-character, to treat them as if they're actual people. Heck, I played Duke Nukem 3D when I was like 11, complete with the strippers in it, and not once have I ever decided "You know what? I think women are objects...". Edited July 24, 2014 by Lephys 1 Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u
Darji Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 No I am not. And yeah if I search I can find a lot of feminists who do not agree with someone like Anita or her views for example. Also I believe this is becoming way off topic. Maybe we should rather argue in a different thread than this one^^ Please do show us those feminists who are all for sexualised NPCs in video games. You said there's a lot, so it shouldn't be too hard. First of all you need to understand that there are different levels of this word. There is sexualizing and there is over sexualizing for example. There is nothing wrong with a sexual attractive female or male character show knows that she/he is hot and uses this even to her/his advantage. It becomes wrong if it does not fit the setting or the character itself. As I said before easy example: Triss in the Witcher is sexualized but it fits her personality and the rough world the game is set in. A bikini model in COD just for the sake of it is oversexualizing because it does not make any sense for the generic character with no personality nor the world the game is set in. Also I want to say that I will not make any effort to search for stuff you probably would not even take serious to begin with. Right now I do not even know anymore if you are trolling or not... 1
Darji Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 There's actually an interesting tangent here, and also some terminological confusion. What Sarkeesian and other sensible people are objecting to is objectification: portraying women as objects you want to possess rather than subjects you want to be. The term "sexualization" is usually used about children: characters you would not usually—and, most people agree, should not—consider in sexual terms. I.e. "sexualization of [adult] women" is kind of nonsensical. Objectification OTOH is an issue, and in fact one reason I dislike romance-as-minigame is that it is intrinsically objectifying, since it turns your "LI" into a prize to be won. ("What about teh menz?!?" I hear you ask. Objectification of men is not as toxic as objectification of women simply because it's far less pervasive. Popular culture objectifies women constantly, everywhere, all the time, whereas it objectifies men only rarely. I'd even argue that objectification wouldn't be a problem at all if it wasn't the default way of portraying one particular gender. If pop culture was a more or less even mix of subjects and objects irrespective of gender, it would not make life difficult for one particular group of people the way it does now.) SJW out. You also should watch this video. It shows exactly how Anita is wrong and just tries to push her sex negative agenda https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Ju-1I1DTU&list=UUmb8hO2ilV9vRa8cilis88A#t=676
PrimeJunta Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 Haha, you're linking to a Thunderf00t video to support your argument? ROFL 2 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Darji Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 Haha, you're linking to a Thunderf00t video to support your argument? ROFL Yes why not. His videos about this issue are pretty good except for the always pandering of how much money she got for her kickstarter. Prove me that what he is saying in this video is wrong.
PrimeJunta Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 @Darji: that would be seriously OT, and given the moderation on this thread I don't think that would be a great idea. Objectification and cRPG romance is still on-topic, so let's stick to that rather than deconstructing Thunderf00t's rantings, shall we? I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 You don't really have to love it. You could hate it, if you wish. And it's just the justification for the "sexualization" (as you insist on calling it, as if the developers are taking pre-existing, perfectly un-sexual NPCs and unnaturally twisting them into the resulting NPC) of some number of female NPCs throughout the entire world's populous of NPCs. Hey look, there's a brothel in the city. OMG! The real world NEVER had brothels! *gasp* We've sexualized those poor, virtual women, rather than just represented something that really exists, and people that really exist! *ultra gasp*! That's a good point. I don't like people actually objectifying women, but the problem I have with the typical view of the "objectification" of women in video games is that, most of the time, it just means "sexy = objectification." Which is what's happening here. Hiro won't rest until we say that absolutely no NPC, ever, is allowed to be sexy and sexually expressive, or they've been objectified. As if real-life people can't enjoy sexual attraction and all that jazz and appreciate their own forms and beauty without somehow wrongly encouraging all other people to treat them like objects. It's a huge stereotype that doesn't distinguish enough. I like teh sexy females, but that doesn't mean I want them in games strictly to support my idea that women are objects. Video game women are literally (digital) objects, and yet I still feel the desire, while immersedin the game/in-character, to treat them as if they're actual people. Heck, I played Duke Nukem 3D when I was like 11, complete with the strippers in it, and not once have I ever decided "You know what? I think women are objects...". No, I love when you try and justify things like sexualisation and objectification of female NPCs in video games in your posts which you've done. And no, I never said or insisted on calling it as developers taking pre-existing and un-sexual female NPCs and unnaturally turning them into sexualiased versions of them. But you keep making up those make believe arguments so you can argue against them. And we are talking mainly about romanceable NPCs Lephys. You know this thread where it states 'The Official Romance thread' and you would romance sexualised female NPCs. I know that's kind of hard for you to grasp. The stereotype is looking at scantily clad women in society as if that's the standard to go by and then putting them in as romanceable sexualised female NPCs. And when you sexualise those female NPCs, they become objects which you even said they do. No slithering your way out of this. So we should take the advice of 11 year olds because you know Lephys didn't see strippers as objects at the time!
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) First of all you need to understand that there are different levels of this word. There is sexualizing and there is over sexualizing for example. There is nothing wrong with a sexual attractive female or male character show knows that she/he is hot and uses this even to her/his advantage. It becomes wrong if it does not fit the setting or the character itself. As I said before easy example: Triss in the Witcher is sexualized but it fits her personality and the rough world the game is set in. A bikini model in COD just for the sake of it is oversexualizing because it does not make any sense for the generic character with no personality nor the world the game is set in. Also I want to say that I will not make any effort to search for stuff you probably would not even take serious to begin with. Right now I do not even know anymore if you are trolling or not... Well, you said there was a lot of feminists that do support sexualisation of female NPCs in video games. So again, Please share some links. Oh wait, now you won't share any links? Come on. And no, I'm not trolling. I'm not the one who claimed there were lots of feminists who are for sexualisation of female NPCs in video games. Oh yes, there's lots of feminists but I'm not going to prove with any links. Nice little cop out there. Edited July 24, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II 1
BruceVC Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 No Hiro that is not how Feminist think. This is how sex negative Feminist think. As I said before there are a lot of different types of Feminists out there. There is no generally example of the "perfect" feminist. There is a lot of arguing in between as well. On what is sexist and what not etc. You really need to understand this. I am not even really fond of feminists in general because I think it is an outdated believe full of stigmata but even I know that much^^ So are you a feminist? Also can you show me a link where a feminist is okay with the sexualisation of females in video games? We don't need a link, I am a feminist and mentioned by others there are different types of feminists and different interpretations of feminism So I am letting you know as a feminist that in the context of a RPG the sexualisation of characters is fine as long as you don't objectify them. 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 We don't need a link, I am a feminist and mentioned by others there are different types of feminists and different interpretations of feminism So I am letting you know as a feminist that in the context of a RPG the sexualisation of characters is fine as long as you don't objectify them. Yes we do. We do need links. And I would have to question you being a feminist with a lot of posts on this forum which would call into question you being a feminist, but that is for another topic and it would be going off topic. Or better yet, create a website proclaiming you're a feminist and make an argument for the sexualisation of NPCs in video games. It's easy to say 'I am a feminist' but you have to prove it which is why I'm asking for links. Darji said there were a lot of feminists who support the sexualisation of female NPCs in video games. I'm asking for those links.
PrimeJunta Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 @Hiro, could you be more specific about what you mean by 'sexualization?' For example, would you include characters like Catwoman as played by Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman Returns? 1 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) I'm talking about video games, not movies, not comic books, not TV shows. Video games since that's the topic of discussion. Edited July 24, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II
Namutree Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) I.e. "sexualization of [adult] women" is kind of nonsensical. Objectification OTOH is an issue, and in fact one reason I dislike romance-as-minigame is that it is intrinsically objectifying, since it turns your "LI" into a prize to be won. I've always kinda disliked the dating-sim mini-game romances. That's kinda why I really liked the Sky romance in Jade empire. He wasn't a prize to be won. The romance was about HOW you got him to like you; not what responses WILL get him to like you. During the romance talks you could encourage him to remain "open palm" or become "closed fist". I wish Bioware had done more romances like that one. It was about role-play; not, "If I say this he won't like me! Even though my pc would never say this; I'll say it because Sky will love me." I will likely try to add romances myself to poe, and when I do; it won't be some multiple choice game. Edited July 24, 2014 by Namutree "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.
BruceVC Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) I'm talking about video games, not movies, not comic books, not TV shows. Video games since that's the topic of discussion. Now you are making your argument sound a little desperate, gaming is just another medium for entertainment. The exact same principles should apply around the definition of sexualisation and objectification of people? So you should answer the Catwomen question as it is relevant? Edited July 24, 2014 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) Now you are making your argument sound a little desperate, gaming is just another medium for entertainment. The exact same principles should apply around the definition of sexualisation and objectification of people? No Bruce I'm not making my argument sound desperate. Why should this thread be taken off topic and we now talk about movies? We already have a movie thread in the Off Topic Forum. What it sounds like is you're making your argument desperate by trying to take this off topic and talk about movies in a video game thread. So keep it on topic and about video games and not movies, or tv shows or comic books or whatever. So the question is not relevant. But nice desperate attempt to take this off topic and talk about movies. Edited July 24, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II
Darji Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 Now you are making your argument sound a little desperate, gaming is just another medium for entertainment. The exact same principles should apply around the definition of sexualisation and objectification of people? No Bruce I'm not making my argument sound desperate. Why should this thread be taken off topic and we now talk about movies? We already have a movie thread in the Off Topic Forum. What it sounds like is you're making your argument desperate by trying to take this off topic and talk about movies in a video game thread. So keep it on topic and about video games and not movies, or tv shows or comic books or whatever. So the question if not relevant. But nice desperate attempt to take this off topic and talk about movies. The problem is that you are trying to differentiate one media games with other medias movies, comics etc. and this makes no sense at all. I always laugh about things that are totally ok in movies, books, comics etc but not in video games.
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