E3 Previews (POSSIBLE SPOILERS)

[Lephys]

Yeah... I mean, I don't want it to be a go-to stat. Ya know, "more damage always wins!" or anything. But, I simultaneously don't want to see it be like "Meh... you'll get like a 10% damage boost if you set the world record for number of points stuffed into a single stat. It's not much, but it's not nothing, either."

 

I'm not saying it's 10%. That was exaggerative humor. It just seems like the examples that Josh has presented show pretty much the best-case/maximum effect of full Might (if 18 is maximum for the stat), and a difference of ~4 damage isn't really that much, unless it's with a dagger or something you can dual-wield. But that particular example was with a poleaxe, I believe, which is on the slow/hurty end of the spectrum.

 

I mean, if I heard that maxing out Dexterity would only alter your accuracy by 4 points (as compared to average DEX), I'd be disappointed. That means this Most Dexterous Guy in the World over here is only 4% more accurate than this other, average-joe guy.

 

It's seemingly lackluster, unless there's more to damage and the potential effects of Might that we don't know about.

[Chilloutman]

Yeah... I mean, I don't want it to be a go-to stat. Ya know, "more damage always wins!" or anything. But, I simultaneously don't want to see it be like "Meh... you'll get like a 10% damage boost if you set the world record for number of points stuffed into a single stat. It's not much, but it's not nothing, either."

 

I'm not saying it's 10%. That was exaggerative humor. It just seems like the examples that Josh has presented show pretty much the best-case/maximum effect of full Might (if 18 is maximum for the stat), and a difference of ~4 damage isn't really that much, unless it's with a dagger or something you can dual-wield. But that particular example was with a poleaxe, I believe, which is on the slow/hurty end of the spectrum.

 

I mean, if I heard that maxing out Dexterity would only alter your accuracy by 4 points (as compared to average DEX), I'd be disappointed. That means this Most Dexterous Guy in the World over here is only 4% more accurate than this other, average-joe guy.

 

It's seemingly lackluster, unless there's more to damage and the potential effects of Might that we don't know about.

I share your fears, thats cost of 'no bad build possible' strategy

[Lephys]

I share your fears, thats cost of 'no bad build possible' strategy

That's not really true, though. If that were true, then you could just make a character with a value of 3 in every stat, and be just fine throughout the game.

 

The elimination of "bad builds" keeps getting pulled out of context, time and time again. There are no inherently/absolutely bad builds. There's no decision to put your last 5 points into stat A that's going to be measurably horrible/useless compared to the choice to put those 5 points into some other stat.

 

Basically, if there are X paths, then there's treasure along each of them. Doesn't mean it's just sitting there in plain sight, and you always get the treasure no matter what. It just means one path doesn't have no treasure available, while another has a chest o' gems.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Lephys

[nipsen]

Mm, that was my impression as well. That Josh didn't mean "there are no nearly unplayable and idiotic builds that are obviously inferior in most situations". But more that the builds would make narrative sense, and that a combination of stats would meaningfully describe your character from the beginning.

 

So look forward to the terminally obese monk that has exceptionally low stamina, no upper arm strength, and can't trigger the upper tier focus effects - unless he somehow survives to level 50.

[curryinahurry]

 

The elimination of "bad builds" keeps getting pulled out of context, time and time again. There are no inherently/absolutely bad builds. There's no decision to put your last 5 points into stat A that's going to be measurably horrible/useless compared to the choice to put those 5 points into some other stat.

 

 

You're right of course, but I think one thing most people aren't considering is just how limiting a factor Class Combat Roles are going to be in shaping build possibilities.  

 

If we take a fighter as an example:

 

Fighters are serving the role of 'defenders' as one of the four possible roles (let's forget the marketing language for now) available in combat; the other 3 being, striker, controller, leader (support).  As has been said before, this is heavily influenced by D&D 4e (which I know little about).

 

The fighters baked-in class features and class abilities reinforce this role; which is primarily to engage and prevent enemy penetration into the back line of the party.  It is not necessarily to do lots of damage (striker), command the field of combat (controller) or buff/heal teammates (support).  It may be possible, through the allocation of attributes and selection of talents, to make the fighter a decent striker.  It may be possible to make the fighter, and serviceable controller in dire circumstances, or under the right conditions.  It will likely be impossible to make him/her a buffer, healer.

 

Therefore, no matter what choices we make for our attributes and talents, the baked-in class abilities make our fighter a defender; and possible decent at other stuff.  That, I think, is a lot of how Obsidian is trying to idiot-proof PoE and prevent bad builds.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I tried the Fighter in 4th ed pnp and wasn't keen on it and went back to playing a Rogue. I found it easier being the damage dealer, whacking everything and using skills and abilities to move enemies on the battle field while avoiding (through high defences, dodging or interrupting) almost every enemy attack. The Barbarian looks interesting in PoE but the Fighter/Paladin classes will probably be the last couple of classes I play through the game.

[nipsen]

I will maybe go for one fighter and a multiclassed cipher. I don't know, I really like the category type equipment sets and so on. Easy to use as a stepping stone. Makes you able to choose something defining for your class early on.

[UrbicaMortis]

I will maybe go for one fighter and a multiclassed cipher. I don't know, I really like the category type equipment sets and so on. Easy to use as a stepping stone. Makes you able to choose something defining for your class early on.

You can't multiclass in PoE.

[nipsen]

Oh, well.

[talharbash]

 

I share your fears, thats cost of 'no bad build possible' strategy

 

 

With a level 12 cap how badly could you mess up a build? I suspect they're not expecting people to get past level 8-10 unless they do every bit of content. I also suspect they're balancing things so only a completionist can really mess up a build, and those are exactly the people who won't unless they intend to.

[Lephys]

@Curryinahurry:

 

You're right about the sort of baked-in roles for classes. However, there's still a lot of flexibility. Namely, in the fact that you've got up to 6 different people in a party. What if you have 3 Fighters and 3 Wizards? Or, maybe every single person is a different class?

 

The main thing that differentiates this game's build flexibility, methinks, is that the point-allocation isn't exactly the end-all-be-all of the build. A lot of your effectiveness comes from specifically how you use people, and it can shift around a lot in given situations.

 

For example, the Fighter's defense-heavy abilities and traits are great for simply holding the line, but nothing says they couldn't also be used to send him in to priority-drop a single target. Sure, other classes can deal more damage more quickly, but maybe you've got situations in which they could not survive long enough to do so. You can still equip and design your Fighter for relatively high offense, and use him, in the heat of the moment, to make use of his low chance of getting hit to wade in to the giant troll with a heavy crossbow, or what have you, to take him down before he fells your Wizard or something.

 

*shrug*. There are a lot of variables, so it's hard to make an example that covers all of them. But, my point is simply that there's a lot of flexibility out there, really. The best way of illustrating this would be to have each class do a solo run of the game, and compare how they were weren't able to adapt to situations.

 

There are certain roles they pretty much won't be able to fill (like a Fighter being a pure support/buffer), but there's plenty of shifting to be done.

[curryinahurry]

^  Your example comes down to re-activity, which I agree will be a major test for this system.  But the other side is player expectation, and we'll have to see how far the game will will bend to allow us to play characters the way we want; within reason, of course.

[anameforobsidian]

A metric ****ton of flexibility is going to be available just from expanded gear choices.  That was a major reason for dual classing in IE.  I expect a gun cypher wearing leather will play fairly differently from a dual-dagger cypher wearing plate even if they had the same abilities.

Edited July 1, 2014 by anameforobsidian

[curryinahurry]

^ that is a good point, but we will have to see if equipment changes reinforce different builds/ role options (as I hope), or they provide a slightly different way for a class to fulfill its developer sanctioned role in combat.  

 

Many people might be happy with their gun toting Cipher delivering massive damage in its stiker role.  But what if the party controller goes down, will that same Cipher be able to fill the gap as controller as the person who created him/her intended when they were coming up with the character concept?   That is my point about expectation and reactivity.

 

Now if your gun toting cipher can go from Striker to controller, while your plate wearing cipher can go from Striker to support as required, that would be the best of all worlds.

[Sensuki]

That won't be possible, but the Cipher has a few CC spells IIRC, all requiring targets, however. They don't have any AoE disable stuff.

[curryinahurry]

I'm wondering if the CC stuff like Mind wave and Soul Shock (is that the name?) can have synergy with Barbarian Carnage or Fighter Group Knockdown.  If so, that could do as a form of CC in a pinch if the main controller is down or unable to contribute for some reason.

[anameforobsidian]

I think ciphers are going to have a lot of synergy with barbarians in general.  After all, the barbarian is supposed to dive into a clump of enemies, and the cypher can be played ranged.  Barbarian dives in, Soul Shock, Ectoplasmic echo, mind wave, and constant AoE damage from the Barbarian.  That's an npc blender.

 

Anyways, it seems like most of the classes have some form of CC, but wizards really pump it out.

Edited July 2, 2014 by anameforobsidian