Overland travel map question

[Lord_Darkmoon]

Hi,

 

sorry if this has been answered but i couldn't find anything. Pillars of Eternity will use an overland travel system similar to Baldur's Gate/Dragon Age. Has there been a word on how this will look like? Will it be a 2D paper/cloth map like in Baldur's Gate 2 where the party travels on or will it be a 3D map? Personally I would prefer a 3D map, or at least 3D-like so that it matches the style of the game. I could also imagine that if the graphical style of the adventure areas and the overland map would be consistent that there could be some cool zoom in/zoom out out effect so that you get the impression/illusion of travling on one large map/world which is only zoomed out.

 

By 3D map I think about something like this with clouds drifting by, birds flying around, animals roaming around, a day/night cycle, maybe weather effects like rain and lightning etc.:

 

Edited April 14, 2014 by Lord_Darkmoon

[Messier-31]

You're talking like the one in Skyrim. But I guess, like in IE games, maps don't tend to have tiny little birds flying over them. Like real ones, they're just maps but much cooler.

[Quadrone]

The last we saw the map it looked pretty much identical to the Baldurs Gate version.

Clickable locations on a 2D world map.

[Jarrakul]

I actually find the Skyrim map (my main frame of reference for the 3d style) to be somewhat difficult to use. It's not sufficiently exaggerated to clearly depict much of anything but snow and mountains. If we get a 3d map, I'd prefer something that looked more like the last couple Civilization games, with everything huge and exaggerated and very visually clear. Of course that ends up looking kind of cartoony in 3d, so I think the best result would be achieved by having something 2d that looks like a traditional paper fantasy map. That's not to say I don't understand the desire for a Skyrim-style 3d map, those are definitely cool, but it's not my preference.

 

Also, 2d is probably cheaper, and honestly there are a lot of things in the game I'd rather the time/money be spent on.

[Lephys]

I demand a Game-of-Thrones-Intro map. It's flat, but when you select destinations and/or travel around, everything pops out of it all mechanically and awesomely. Also, the sun is a 3D mechanical sky contraption.

 

(Not really, but that IS a cool map).

 

I think some neat 3D effects here and there would be nice. Maybe if the destinations themselves were 3D, and it sort of zoomed down to them when you traveled there, *Shrug*. At the same time, I think that's basically all just decorations on the frosting on the cake. As long as it's sufficiently invoking of the "this is totally an interesting world with a lot of personality" feeling and it's quite functional, it doesn't really need anything 3D for any reason, I don't suppose. There's definitely room, creatively, for 3D elements, though.

 

It's always nice when a map kind of feels alive. Sort of halfway between "this is just a map you're looking at" and "this is actually the world."

[Bryy]

Has there actually been a screen of the PoE map?

[Quadrone]

Has there actually been a screen of the PoE map?

 

I'd say so, post #96 here.

 

Edit: Kinda spoilerish in a way, if you care about that, since you can see a lot of travel locations on the map.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Quadrone

[Mor]

"Pro tip" - near the post number there is a little share icon (one circle contented to two others) clicking on it will give the direct link to that post.

[Lord_Darkmoon]

I demand a Game-of-Thrones-Intro map. It's flat, but when you select destinations and/or travel around, everything pops out of it all mechanically and awesomely. Also, the sun is a 3D mechanical sky contraption.

 

(Not really, but that IS a cool map).

 

I think some neat 3D effects here and there would be nice. Maybe if the destinations themselves were 3D, and it sort of zoomed down to them when you traveled there, *Shrug*. At the same time, I think that's basically all just decorations on the frosting on the cake. As long as it's sufficiently invoking of the "this is totally an interesting world with a lot of personality" feeling and it's quite functional, it doesn't really need anything 3D for any reason, I don't suppose. There's definitely room, creatively, for 3D elements, though.

 

It's always nice when a map kind of feels alive. Sort of halfway between "this is just a map you're looking at" and "this is actually the world."

 

 

Exactly, by having a world view that feels alive and looks like a zoomed out view you get the impression of this being the world. So you get the illusion of wandering around in an open world instead of looking at a paper map. This could add a lot to the immersion, imo.

 

Also I think that Skyrim is not a good example of a 2D world view/map. It looks too sterile and it feels somehow odd.

But the pic I posted above looks like an atmospheric world view I could get lost in and on which I would love to roam around, "exploring" the world while travling to the locations.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Lord_Darkmoon

[rjshae]

The overhead map for the Legends of Eisenwald looked like it would make a pretty decent overland map.

 

[Mor]

The overhead map for the Legends of Eisenwald looked like it would make a pretty decent overland map.

 

It looks a 3D game with a continues world map... I don't see how or why they should create something like which doesn't seem like it plays to the game technical and artistic strength.

 

IMO everything here looks far better:

http://www.mikeschley.com/128067/1267784/maps/fantasy-overland-maps

http://www.mikeschley.com/128067/1267839/maps/fictional-city-maps

 

Even something overly cartoon-ish like that looks better to me:

 

 

 

 

[Volourn]

Overland maps are cool.

[rjshae]

IMO everything here looks far better:

http://www.mikeschley.com/128067/1267784/maps/fantasy-overland-maps

http://www.mikeschley.com/128067/1267839/maps/fictional-city-maps

 

It's a matter of personal taste, I suppose. Those are nice maps, but they wouldn't work at all well for showing dynamic features... which is the point of 3D overland maps.

[Lephys]

Exactly, by having a world view that feels alive and looks like a zoomed out view you get the impression of this being the world. So you get the illusion of wandering around in an open world instead of looking at a paper map. This could add a lot to the immersion, imo.

 

Also I think that Skyrim is not a good example of a 2D world view/map. It looks too sterile and it feels somehow odd.

But the pic I posted above looks like an atmospheric world view I could get lost in and on which I would love to roam around, "exploring" the world while travling to the locations.

Agreed. Although, I will say that there are some nice ways to make the map sort of come alive using only (or mostly) 2D aesthetics as well. The best quick example I can think of is the Marauder's Map in Harry Potter. Granted, that was mainly a blueprint-style layout of the interior of a place, with representations of moving people. But, still... that type of approach can be taken with terrain and locations, too.

 

I also agree about the Skyrim map. I mean, it was nice, but then... all the locations were just little icons anyway. Which is great for differentiating all the different travelable spots all so clustered together like that, but, other than general terrain and clouds (and snow), the map didn't really allow much to take advantage of its 3D form.

 

Honestly, if anything's going to be 3D on a more BG-style overland map, it'd be nice if it was the locations themselves; towns, keeps, forests, passes, etc. Maybe some of the terrain, but, overall, it's not super important that the overall terrain read from a bunch of different angles, so a lot of 3D terrain would just be lost if it went the Skyrim route, too.

[Lord_Darkmoon]

The overhead map for the Legends of Eisenwald looked like it would make a pretty decent overland map.

 

 

The map of Legends of Eisenwald looks fantastic!

I think that such a 3D overland map - or maybe not real 3D but more in line with the "fake" 3D of the game - would be great and something special for Pillars.

It would still be the same mechanics like a classic paper map but much more detailed and alive/dynamic. You could see it as an evolution to the map system. It works the same as we are used to but it would look much better, fresh and create a much more dense atmosphere. Just like with the game itself. It uses the classic elements of IE-based RPGs but refines them here and there.

 

Edited April 16, 2014 by Lord_Darkmoon

[Mor]

 

IMO everything here looks far better:

http://www.mikeschley.com/128067/1267784/maps/fantasy-overland-maps

http://www.mikeschley.com/128067/1267839/maps/fictional-city-maps

 

It's a matter of personal taste, I suppose. Those are nice maps, but they wouldn't work at all well for showing dynamic features... which is the point of 3D overland maps.

 

The point of a 3D map is that you can change perspective or zoom out. That Legends of Eisenwald style map will never happened, its not a 'world map' its game map of a continues world using 3D, if this what you want then the ship has sailed on this with KS pitch, what we have is non continues world with 2d maps using 3d effects.

 

As for a world map(i.e. total war like overland map) here is what I believe is Legends of Eisenwald world map actually looks like(quick Google):

 

 

 

 

which IMO can be far better represented in stylized 2D paint overs with 3D effects like what we already have.

 

The only other thing I can think off is that you want them to create a mini game, a zoom able 3D continues world map.. i.e. spend a lot of time on creating detailed topography for meh benefits..

 

Edited.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Mor

[IndiraLightfoot]

A 3D overland map with effects or a 2D map with a fitting font? Hmm.

I guess I'd be happy either way, but as for now, a beautiful parchment map that's drawn like those illustration cards they'll use for "You see a steep ledge and a one-eyed accordion-player. What will you do?", tickles my fancy the most.

[Lord_Darkmoon]

An interesting idea would be something that Age of Wonders 3 did. You have a 3D overland map that you can zoom in and out. You can zoom high above the clouds and then the 3D landscape changes to a 2D paper map.

You can see how this looks like in this video at around 1:30:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNozR4h3Y2k

[Mor]

Yes many strategy games with continues 3d world map employ this trick to zoom out and use another layer for top zoom level(I think i first saw this with civilization), but for our purpose we don't have nether a continues world nor a 3D area maps you can zoom out from, so what you suggest is a pure eye candy extra zoom layer for the world map that would have nothing todo with any of the mechanics\content..

Edited April 16, 2014 by Mor

[Lord_Darkmoon]

Yes many strategy games with continues 3d world map employ this trick to zoom out and use another layer for top zoom level(I think i first saw this with civilization), but for our purpose we don't have nether a continues world nor a 3D area maps you can zoom out from, so what you suggest is a pure eye candy extra zoom layer for the world map that would have nothing todo with any of the mechanics\content..

 

Just to clarify: the whole map mechanics should not change in the least. Using a 3D overland map or in the case of Pillards of Eternity an overland map that looks 3D it could add a lot to the atmosphere. The map would look more alive with clouds drifting by, birds flying around, trees swining in the wind, waves crashing to the shores by etc. It would be something unique and interesting without changing any of the mechanics. You still would click on discovered locations on the overland map and auto travel there. It would just look a lot more interesting, supporting the atmosphere and immersion. 

That was the whole idea behind it, to make the overland map more interesting and atmospheric and look unique compared to regular paper maps.

 

 

[rjshae]

 

 

IMO everything here looks far better:

http://www.mikeschley.com/128067/1267784/maps/fantasy-overland-maps

http://www.mikeschley.com/128067/1267839/maps/fictional-city-maps

 

It's a matter of personal taste, I suppose. Those are nice maps, but they wouldn't work at all well for showing dynamic features... which is the point of 3D overland maps.

 

The point of a 3D map is that you can change perspective or zoom out. That Legends of Eisenwald style map will never happened, its not a 'world map' its game map of a continues world using 3D, if this what you want then the ship has sailed on this with KS pitch, what we have is non continues world with 2d maps using 3d effects.

 

Mmm... no. Changing perspective or zooming out is not necessary for a successful overland map. SoZ, for example, had a static viewing perspective, which reduces the cost of building assets.

[Mor]

Just to clarify: the whole map mechanics should not change in the least. Using a 3D overland map or in the case of Pillards of Eternity an overland map that looks 3D it could add a lot to the atmosphere.

An interesting idea would be something that Age of Wonders 3 did. You have a 3D overland map that you can zoom in and out. You can zoom high above the clouds and then the 3D landscape changes to a 2D paper map.

I have no problem with enhancing the world map with various effects, however, I do question of the need for a purely eye candy "extra zoom level map" and would like to note our world map is similar in scale to ~sixth of the Spainish Peninsular, so we need a better examples than what we have now where you can see individual trees...

[rjshae]

 

Just to clarify: the whole map mechanics should not change in the least. Using a 3D overland map or in the case of Pillards of Eternity an overland map that looks 3D it could add a lot to the atmosphere.

An interesting idea would be something that Age of Wonders 3 did. You have a 3D overland map that you can zoom in and out. You can zoom high above the clouds and then the 3D landscape changes to a 2D paper map.

I have no problem with enhancing the world map with various effects, however, I do question of the need for a purely eye candy "extra zoom level map" and would like to note our world map is similar in scale to ~sixth of the Spainish Peninsular, so we need a better examples than what we have now where you can see individual trees...

 

My interpretation such features is that they are "representational" of the terrain. Obviously it can't map trees or other vegetation 1-to-1, so the developers may use a stand of trees to represent a copse or light forest, for example, while a green canopy would indicate a larger forest. Its meant to to be an eye-pleasing abstraction. But then that is true of many a map.

 

Here, for example, is a screen shot from the SoZ overland map:

 

Edited April 16, 2014 by rjshae

[Lephys]

The only other thing I can think off is that you want them to create a mini game, a zoom able 3D continues world map.. i.e. spend a lot of time on creating detailed topography for meh benefits..

... I now demand a cartography mini-game. Or at least an Artistry rating for characters, so that, when you "uncover" a new/unvisited area, an Artistry check is rolled, and your character either sketches in a brilliantly-rendered keep, or a little stick-person fort with a flag and symbol that looks like a 3-year-old did it with crayons.

[Mor]

My interpretation such features is that they are "representational" of the terrain. Obviously it can't map trees or other vegetation 1-to-1, so the developers may use a stand of trees to represent a copse or light forest, for example, while a green canopy would indicate a larger forest. Its meant to to be an eye-pleasing abstraction. But then that is true of many a map.

Off course it is meant as an eye pleasing abstraction, but we still need to be mindful of scale, which iswhy I posted examples for both world and city scale maps.

 

Furthermore, for reference here is what we have:

 

 

Location map from recent update:

 

concept art of same area(we haven't seen any examples of area maps)

 

World map from several month ago GDC presentation:

 

 

 

Now, what exactly you guys suggest that can be added and at what level...   

 

 

... I now demand a cartography mini-game.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Mor