Josh Sawyer talks about stealth mechanics

[Lephys]

I was thinking about that, and just distractionary tactics in general. Throwing small pieces of metal, or rocks, etc. But, instead of it being overly simplified, as in many games, in which all sentries ever just fall for it and are completely baffled as to what it could have been, you could have a mix of dumb sentries who remain oblivious, and smart sentries that rather quickly realize that there's nothing over there, and/or intentionally have some other guard watch in other directions before they even go off to investigate the thrown-object noise, in case it was, indeed, a distraction.

 

Also, Nonek, I think that's a new Rogue-specific euphemism. "What, the two sneaky folk? Oh, they're upstairs, rubbing circles, IF ya know what I mean *elbow nudge, elbow nudge*"

[Silent Winter]

I get that, as Junta said, you can use time delays. However, if someone's circle is 7 paces out, and the delay is long enough for you to sneak all the way up to their back and stab them before they even do anything about it, then what's stopping it from simply making it super-easy to sneak through people's circles in the first place, even when you're NOT trying to get up to them and kill them before the "buzzer"? And, I'm not suggesting it's impossible to do that, but, I just think it's a good question to ask. The answer to that question is important.

It's a fair question - the obvious answer being that sneaking in halfway will allow you to hit them before they can react/cry for help, but sneaking all the way through would take too long.  There's also the idea that simply grazing someone's circle (running through the edge) wouldn't make them fully aware - they'd go on a different patrol perhaps to investigate and maybe make others' do the same by calling to them.  Perhaps their circles then get bigger (because they're being more actively searchy) making it very difficult/impossible to sneak through a whole area just by running quickly through the circles.

So if your plan is to sneak-by, you need to avoid the circles.  If your plan is to backstab, you've got just enough time to do that.

[Lephys]

Maybe... it just seems like without a specific way to further delay/ignore the effects of being inside a circle, you'll never be able to close to melee range without:

 

A) possessing the ability to move really, ludicrously fast (which, again, the faster you move, the more detectable you are, so *shrug*)

B) balancing the average size of all enemy detection circles to an unusually small size, or

C) having such a long time delay that sneaking through circles is way too easy.

 

I mean, let's say you have the time delay. Ehhh, 2 seconds? *shrug*. Okay, if 2 seconds is EVER enough time to close from the distance between yourself and the foe at the point where your circles touch all the way to melee range, then, again, you're either moving REALLY fast, or that guy's circle (AND your own) are ultra small. After 2 seconds, he's going to begin investigating, at which point being inside his circle will be insta-detection. Plus, that's 2 seconds you get to run around inside someone's circle before they even investigate, meaning that, in a situation in which you're simply trying to avoid detection while getting through an area, it's going to be that much easier to simply jog through people's circles (especially with your speed that allows you to close to melee range on targets before they detect you). And if you increase the size of the circles to compensate for this, then you either deny the ability to close to melee range on any targets anymore, or you adjust something else (move speed, etc.) to keep this in check, thus negating the increase in circle size (because this remains proportionate to all other stealth-related factors).

 

So, *Shrug*. With facings, it would be easy. You're behind them, and quiet? If you can get to them before they turn around, you can kill them. Now, you just balance the circle size against the frequency with which sentries in the game turn around, etc. But, since we're not using facings, I'm thinking the best bet would be some sort of specific ability/talent that temporarily boosts your move speed while keeping your circle small, and/or shrinks your "presence" circle, and/or makes you immune to detection, etc.

 

If you try to do it passively, every factor seems to affect every other factor to such a great degree that you either end up making sneaking way too easy, or you make backstabbing ludicrously rare (only the sentries with horrible Perception and extremely small circles relative to the average size would be able to be reached before detection occurred.)

 

That's my robot analysis. 8P

 

Not saying it can't be done. But, it seems to be the trickier approach. Not simply to have time delays in the game, but, to rely on them to allow for melee-range stealth backstabs.

[JFSOCC]

I still have the same question I've had from the start: If one guard is alerted, does that mean the entire base is alerted?

[Adhin]

That is a good question, and something I'd like addressed way more then how many or the shape/placement of circles heh.

[Lephys]

I still have the same question I've had from the start: If one guard is alerted, does that mean the entire base is alerted?

I really can't remember exactly where, but I seem to recall an official quote on this, about how it'll be more realistic than "everything's a hivemind." I think it was some mention of "If you can dispatch someone who detects you before they actually sound some kind of alarm, then the alarm goes unsounded." Then, the range in-between: maybe a bandit calls out to 2 other bandits who are within earshot, and they come to his aid, but the rest of the camp remains unaware as long as you kill them. Or, if it's a creature that detects you, and it howls when it detects you, then the rest of its pack probably know to come running that way. Etc.

 

I don't really have any substantial official evidence to display, though, sadly.

[Silent Winter]

So, *Shrug*. With facings, it would be easy. You're behind them, and quiet? If you can get to them before they turn around, you can kill them. Now, you just balance the circle size against the frequency with which sentries in the game turn around, etc. But, since we're not using facings, I'm thinking the best bet would be some sort of specific ability/talent that temporarily boosts your move speed while keeping your circle small, and/or shrinks your "presence" circle, and/or makes you immune to detection, etc.

so a 'sneak attack' / 'backstab' ability?  If you're close enough (or your circles are close enough but not touching) you can use it to auto-sneak-attack a guard?  Or just, as you say, be immune to detection so you could get close enough to attack.  Could work - Perhaps if you have the ability then by simply clicking 'attack' when close enough (and melee weapon equipped) you'd dash in to perform the sneak attack...of course, if you're not quite close enough, then you'd just blunder in and set off detection...could be frustrating (of the people reloading variety) or then again it could be a player skill thing to judge the distance (like throwing fireballs in BG). Hmmm...my brain's tired so I'm not thinking of mechanics well.  But I like the idea.

[Adhin]

Already said it in this thread but the Rogue has an invisibility skill, which as you'd imagine would cancel out the detection game letting you get up close and stab. Would be nice if they had talents to allow for a larger then normal 'first strike' from invisibility for sure, but the ability already exists.

[Adhin]

Aaand Update 71, Rogue gets a free sneak attack with in the first 2 seconds of combat. So if they start a fight, weather they're spotted or not from stealthing up to a target - they'll get the sneaky stabbers.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Aaand Update 71, Rogue gets a free sneak attack with in the first 2 seconds of combat. So if they start a fight, weather they're spotted or not from stealthing up to a target - they'll get the sneaky stabbers.

Which makes them very lethal indeed, and quite important when a fight breaks out. I wonder what kind of initiative system PoE has. Obviously, if no one detects the rogue, it will do its heavy hit, but perhaps they are super quick in open combat as well and maybe they can re-stealth too.

[Silent Winter]

Sneak Attack - Sneak Attack applies bonus damage to the rogue's ranged and melee weapon attacks when the target has any of the following statuses: Blinded, Flanked, Hobbled, Paralyzed, Petrified, Prone, Stuck, Stunned, or Weakened. It also applies to any target the rogue strikes with a weapon within the first 2 seconds of combat starting.

(emphasis added by me) So I'm guessing the free sneak attack at the start is a once per-encounter deal, since it's in the first 2 seconds.  So probably that'll be your starting move if you can initiate the combat - kinda like a backstab in AD&D.

The other uses require setting the target up (using the rogue's abilities or pairing with the ranger or a fighter (for flanking)).

 

Sounds awesome.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Silent Winter

[JFSOCC]

I'm surprised that there aren't more conditions, like bleeding, diseased, poisoned, deep wound, cursed, or dazed. Or maybe there are but they don't qualify for sneak attacks.

[Adhin]

@IndiraLightfoot: Im gonna go with 'mostly non-existent'. Though I could see there being an ambush timer where the units that start combat get a bonus free second or 2 of free reign before reactions set in. Initiative is mostly a turn-based only concept to determine the order in which said turns are taken. A game made entirely with real time rules (unlike IE where its turn based turned real-time, which still uses turn structure) has little use for initiative.

 

But getting 2 seconds worth of enemies not doing anything due to an ambush would be a nice touch.

[anameforobsidian]

I'm surprised that there aren't more conditions, like bleeding, diseased, poisoned, deep wound, cursed, or dazed. Or maybe there are but they don't qualify for sneak attacks.

 

I don't know about bleeding, poisoned, or diseased specifically, but since there's DoT's in the game I'd be shocked if one of them didn't make it in there.  Logically, I wouldn't think that anything about them would make the opponent more susceptible to sneak attacks.  "Ow! A paper cut.  Where did everyone go?"

[JFSOCC]

I imagine that having a bleeding squirting wound can be quite distracting, and weakening as well. But I suppose it might be too easy for rogues to qualify for sneak attacks if every little ouchie qualifies for extra damage.

[Lephys]

I imagine that having a bleeding squirting wound can be quite distracting, and weakening as well. But I suppose it might be too easy for rogues to qualify for sneak attacks if every little ouchie qualifies for extra damage.

I think it's mainly focusing on the things that would physically prevent that character from denying the Rogue the advantage. Sure, bleeding could lead to dizziness (for example), but the statii (statuses?) are separated out like that, already. I mean, that being said, it would be really cool if the system allowed for some amount of "ticks" spent bleeding to cause the target to become Dazed or something. In isolation, that would be really cool. And that would then lead to an advantage for the Rogue's Sneak Attack. But, as it stands, simply having blood pouring from your appendage does not prevent you from keeping your wits about you and denying your Rogueish opponent his sneaky awesome attacks.

 

Using poison as another example, the fact that the "poisoned" status doesn't affect anything but stamina/health loss over time in no way prevents the game from including various different poisons, some of which might worsen over time, and/or apply more than one affect. (This, like the bleeding thing, would be very cool).