Hidden Experience

[Jobby]

You do realise what you've described is metagaming? There's no problem with that if that's how you enjoy games of course. My RPing argument referred to deciding on your main chars personality and following that through regardless of consequence (cause that's what he would do), which unless you are Rping a metagamer who can time travel then Rping might not be for you

 

That being said perhaps in your case hiding experience rewards could be a good thing since you may not feel compelled to get the best possible outcome so I suppose in some regards I stand grudgingly corrected

Edited January 28, 2014 by Jobby

[Hassat Hunter]

I guess I'm only asking for this because I want to know how intelligently designed their XP system is.

Ehm... if you want to inspect the XP system of PoE... doing so by turning off the XP gains information doesn't exactly seem the way to achieve that.

It sounds to me like inspecting the roleplaying by simply clicking random options and never reading. You won't get any of the information you need for a conclusion...

[Sir Chaox]

 

I guess I'm only asking for this because I want to know how intelligently designed their XP system is.

Ehm... if you want to inspect the XP system of PoE... doing so by turning off the XP gains information doesn't exactly seem the way to achieve that.

It sounds to me like inspecting the roleplaying by simply clicking random options and never reading. You won't get any of the information you need for a conclusion...

 

 

I definitely won't get a full idea without the numbers, but knowing WHEN they are giving experience will help me determine WHEN they believe experience should be delivered to the player (especially interested in how they plan to give XP in minor encounters in wilderness areas, if they exist). I won't know what value they place in each encounter, but I'm OK with that for the sake of allowing this idea to work.

 

I guess I'd like to have it both ways on this one.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Sir Chaox

[Sir Chaox]

But before I leave to ponder those questions with a cup of fine tea, I have to ask for a basic clarification, because somehow I missed that one and it's kinda fundamental (yes, I'm ashamed of my ignorance). Does experience points reward vary, depending on picked skill checks, stats and different dialog lines? Because if so, I'll still feel conditioned to do them in most "rewarding" way. Obviously there's some serious mismanagement with my "Will Power" level.

 

I'd say we don't really have enough information yet to answer this with 100% accuracy, but from what they've provided so far, the accomplishment system should be designed to reward players fairly equally no matter how you choose to play the game.

 

Thanks in advance

 

No problem. 

[milczyciel]

@Jobby
Sure I know that - been playing cRPGs long enough to know and understand those few basic terms.
What I didn't realize was, how conditioned in my meta gaming I am.
I used to play very smart and nimble characters (also charismatic, but to a smaller degree) because that was the way I liked it, because it gave me different treats than ramming through with a Vindicator wielding Hulk incarnation (also awesome, but on a different level), not only "moar xp, moar gold". Rewards of the kinds of floating text "hehe I love killing old people" from Fallout 2 after replacing Salvatore's oxygen tank with a poison. The fun of doing so, was it's own reward.  On a side note additional options and dialogue lines were not as apparent back then, as they are now, with all those graphical distinctions screaming PICK ME! PICK ME! so finding them alone, when you thought that you did the quest in any and every possible way, was very rewarding.
Nowadays I play the way I used to, because it became technically the most profitable way... and thus I've lost a fun factor of roleplaying somewhere among the lines.
 
I suppose it may be somehow similar to the issues of those who always asked for non-handicapped "evil char" experience of Baldur's Gate (my IRL friend among them).
 
And sometimes, especially when I want to replay a given title, I long for a different approach (in spirit of a low INT char from Fallout 1&2, but less punishing, restraining). Unfortunately in most cases any other way than a specific one, designed to be "the best" just seems to be less funny and... generous. For example In NV, there are far more speech checks in comparison to STR based ones. Some of them even making pursuing the story details invalid like in Lt. Gorobets centered quest "I Don't Hurt Anymore" where I felt her sympathy towards 10 of spades and the guilt he felt, were downplayed by a generic but xp rewarded "weakest link" speech check.
 
...and let us not even start with DE:HR which was so obviously stealth intended that it makes it's less homogenous ancestor looking, well more roleplaying-ish (in my understanding of the word). And the funny part is, I liked HR - even bought it "on release" after I've heard/red people accusing it for being "too conservative and similar to the oryginal Deus Ex".
 
To sum it up: thanks for your grudgingly voiced recognition of my flawed ways
Cheers
 
 
 

I'd say we don't really have enough information yet to answer this with 100% accuracy, but from what they've provided so far, the accomplishment system should be designed to reward players fairly equally no matter how you choose to play the game.

Oh man, if it will turn out to be correct... I'll get hyped beyond the point of no return. Thanks again!

[neo6874]

 

in IWD2 when you get xp for quests it just says "the party has gained experience" but not how much. it did not bother me in the slightest.

 

Not sure if this was the original intention or already suggested in this thread, but this would be nice to see in PE as well; the game will tell you when your party has received experience, and only the numbers are omitted (from both the bottom log and the character screens). It would be nice to know when the game is rewarding XP during quests and encounters (since the XP system is accomplishment-based, we won't be seeing a ton of these messages all the time). I guess I'm only asking for this because I want to know how intelligently designed their XP system is.

 

Yeah, I think it was kinda going that way. Personally, I don't mind if there are numbers given, but I'd rather see it doled out in bigger chunks, but infrequently instead of "killed a thing, xx XP".

[Nyhilla]

I feel those xp numbers to be like that ; 

 

Either you save the daughter of someone, and kill the bandits. You're then rewarded by 200 xp and 50 silver coins (100xp from the quest giver, and 100 xp for all of the bandits).

 

Or, you kill the bandits, rape the daughter, then you're rewarded with 100 xp (Only the bandits so) for killing the bandits and nothing more. Well you've raped the girl, seem logic to me.

 

Or you kill everyone, including the girl and her father the questgiver. You get 110 xp and 20 silver coins from the total kills and the girl/father money they got on them.

 

Or you do absolutely nothing, and get absolutely nothing, and you'll never see the npc everafter. Even if later one you find the bandits hideout and save/kill/rape the girl.

 

My point is, if we hide the xp numbers, then people will try, look at their xp before and after and do some Scumloading as some people call it, and will know what they've earned for each of the differents ways to complete this "quest".

Or they will just do what they want to do and earn what they earned.

 

The fact is that if you remove the xp numbers, then people will look out what is better for them, in a way or an other. You can't fight greed.

Then okay peoples who are playing in a "No load game", or "You die you restart the game", will not do the first, and will just do what they wanted to and get what they're offered.

But let's be honest, most people won't play those modes, and take the first option.

 

You can't reasonnably hide the xp numbers from the "xp bar" in your character statistics panel. Well you can but it's for me a mistake, my opinion no more.

I like to know if I'm missing 50 xp or 55 xp to get my next skill/level.

 

 

Personnaly I like to do everything, depending on what sort of playthrough I'm on (if it's a roleplay one, test one, grind one, and the list goes on..). So if I WANT to see how many experience I got by doing this or this, I want to be able to see it. Actually, this is to the player to choose what they want to do. If they want to roleplay, they will do what fits with their character, if they're not, then they will do what reward them most.

 

And this is said without full knowledge on how their "accomplishment system" really work, so this is not fully based on how PE will work on it's experience.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Nyhilla

[Sir Chaox]

I feel those xp numbers to be like that ; 

 

Either you save the daughter of someone, and kill the bandits. You're then rewarded by 200 xp and 50 silver coins (100xp from the quest giver, and 100 xp for all of the bandits).

 

Or, you kill the bandits, rape the daughter, then you're rewarded with 100 xp (Only the bandits so) for killing the bandits and nothing more. Well you've raped the girl, seem logic to me.

 

Or you kill everyone, including the girl and her father the questgiver. You get 110 xp and 20 silver coins from the total kills and the girl/father money they got on them.

 

Or you do absolutely nothing, and get absolutely nothing, and you'll never see the npc everafter. Even if later one you find the bandits hideout and save/kill/rape the girl.

 

XP distributions like this might deter people from particular routes. I think each of the examples you listed should give the same amount of XP except for the one where you do nothing. To me, it does not make sense to reward more XP for doing the good path over one of the more evil paths in this example. XP rewards should be based on overall effort.

 

But I digress. This idea (hidden experience) does not necessarily have to be about preventing save scumming but about not being worried about how much XP you are getting or when your next level up is coming; it will just happen when it happens. It might focus the player more on other aspects of the game (story, quests, roleplaying), which could make for an interesting playthrough.

[Jobby]

I feel those xp numbers to be like that ; 

 

Either you save the daughter of someone, and kill the bandits. You're then rewarded by 200 xp and 50 silver coins (100xp from the quest giver, and 100 xp for all of the bandits).

 

Or, you kill the bandits, rape the daughter, then you're rewarded with 100 xp (Only the bandits so) for killing the bandits and nothing more. Well you've raped the girl, seem logic to me.

 

Or you kill everyone, including the girl and her father the questgiver. You get 110 xp and 20 silver coins from the total kills and the girl/father money they got on them.

 

Or you do absolutely nothing, and get absolutely nothing, and you'll never see the npc everafter. Even if later one you find the bandits hideout and save/kill/rape the girl.

 

My point is, if we hide the xp numbers, then people will try, look at their xp before and after and do some Scumloading as some people call it, and will know what they've earned for each of the differents ways to complete this "quest".

Or they will just do what they want to do and earn what they earned.

 

The fact is that if you remove the xp numbers, then people will look out what is better for them, in a way or an other. You can't fight greed.

Then okay peoples who are playing in a "No load game", or "You die you restart the game", will not do the first, and will just do what they wanted to and get what they're offered.

But let's be honest, most people won't play those modes, and take the first option.

 

You can't reasonnably hide the xp numbers from the "xp bar" in your character statistics panel. Well you can but it's for me a mistake, my opinion no more.

I like to know if I'm missing 50 xp or 55 xp to get my next skill/level.

 

 

Personnaly I like to do everything, depending on what sort of playthrough I'm on (if it's a roleplay one, test one, grind one, and the list goes on..). So if I WANT to see how many experience I got by doing this or this, I want to be able to see it. Actually, this is to the player to choose what they want to do. If they want to roleplay, they will do what fits with their character, if they're not, then they will do what reward them most.

 

And this is said without full knowledge on how their "accomplishment system" really work, so this is not fully based on how PE will work on it's experience.

 

See that was my line of argument until Milczyciel (a self confessed metagamer ) stated that he would be less likely to go about things in such a fashion if progression was hidden to a degree and to be honest i can see his (and others) point, It could be a nice option for a first time play through.

[Nyhilla]

 

I feel those xp numbers to be like that ; 

 

Either you save the daughter of someone, and kill the bandits. You're then rewarded by 200 xp and 50 silver coins (100xp from the quest giver, and 100 xp for all of the bandits).

 

Or, you kill the bandits, rape the daughter, then you're rewarded with 100 xp (Only the bandits so) for killing the bandits and nothing more. Well you've raped the girl, seem logic to me.

 

Or you kill everyone, including the girl and her father the questgiver. You get 110 xp and 20 silver coins from the total kills and the girl/father money they got on them.

 

Or you do absolutely nothing, and get absolutely nothing, and you'll never see the npc everafter. Even if later one you find the bandits hideout and save/kill/rape the girl.

 

XP distributions like this might deter people from particular routes. I think each of the examples you listed should give the same amount of XP except for the one where you do nothing. To me, it does not make sense to reward more XP for doing the good path over one of the more evil paths in this example. XP rewards should be based on overall effort.

 

But I digress. This idea (hidden experience) does not necessarily have to be about preventing save scumming but about not being worried about how much XP you are getting or when your next level up is coming; it will just happen when it happens. It might focus the player more on other aspects of the game (story, quests, roleplaying), which could make for an interesting playthrough.

 

 

If you played BG (and  you sure did), xp distribution was like this, but not for all quests assurely.

 

Oh and, you don't earn more xp for being good (In fact, you do), but why the man would reward you (as xp is a reward for completing the quest), if you can't complete de quest like he wish you did. You can't earn the same in each case, as you didn't did the same actions.

 

My point is not that hide xp could be viewed by some as a good option, or as a bad one. See I was talking about seeing how many xp I was in need of before lvling up, by this I don't mean that it bothered me, but that I just want to see how many I lack. So you can make an option to see it or not, I don't think I'll look at what I earned either way. I was just pointing out what the majority of players could do in such a case. (And most of those players don't actually read those forums by the way).

Edited February 5, 2014 by Nyhilla

[Sir Chaox]

If you played BG (and  you sure did), xp distribution was like this, but not for all quests assurely.

 

Oh and, you don't earn more xp for being good (In fact, you do), but why the man would reward you (as xp is a reward for completing the quest), if you can't complete de quest like he wish you did. You can't earn the same in each case, as you didn't did the same actions.

 

My point is not that hide xp could be viewed by some as a good option, or as a bad one. See I was talking about seeing how many xp I was in need of before lvling up, by this I don't mean that it bothered me, but that I just want to see how many I lack. So you can make an option to see it or not, I don't think I'll look at what I earned either way. I was just pointing out what the majority of players could do in such a case. (And most of those players don't actually read those forums by the way).

 

 

Experience is not rewarded by a character in the game, it is rewarded through the system itself; the system does not care who you helped, it cares that you put forth some effort and accomplished something in the game, something that deserves a reward of XP. In all of your examples, the PC put forth effort and accomplished tasks. One was more noble than the others, but you still put forth basically the same amount of effort, so you should be rewarded equally for it. It is difficult to argue that saving someone's life would garner you more experience than murdering that same person.

 

But that's just my opinion. We don't have enough info on the accomplishment-based XP system in PE yet to know how certain accomplishments will be rewarded and how they will be weighed.

 

To answer your last part, hidden experience will hopefully be an option to turn on and off whenever you want. So you could unhide XP in your options and check your current XP if you really wanted to. Basically, it should be an option you can toggle, so you can go back on your decision if you wanted to.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Sir Chaox

[Hassat Hunter]

Basically, it should be an option you can toggle, so you can go back on your decision if you wanted to.

Then you might as well not add the option at all.

 

EXPERT options should be toggles, yes, but once you activate them, they're ON. No just flipping the switch all the time.

What's wrong with modern games, nothing's permanent anymore. In the past, you took a skill, you're stuck with it. DEAL WITH IT. Modern game? You want another? Sure, go ahead, here. Made a decision in the story? Here, at the end you can still change it...

Pshaw...

[Lephys]

EXPERT options should be toggles, yes, but once you activate them, they're ON. No just flipping the switch all the time.

What's wrong with modern games, nothing's permanent anymore. In the past, you took a skill, you're stuck with it. DEAL WITH IT. Modern game? You want another? Sure, go ahead, here. Made a decision in the story? Here, at the end you can still change it...

Pshaw...

Agreed. Really, you should be able to figure out in a few minutes of play whether or not you like playing with hidden experience or not. Boom... you just accomplished something and got XP. Do you feel the huge urge to know how much that was and how far from the next level you are, or don't you? There ya go. *dusts off hands*

[Sir Chaox]

EXPERT options should be toggles, yes, but once you activate them, they're ON. No just flipping the switch all the time.

What's wrong with modern games, nothing's permanent anymore. In the past, you took a skill, you're stuck with it. DEAL WITH IT. Modern game? You want another? Sure, go ahead, here. Made a decision in the story? Here, at the end you can still change it...

Pshaw...

 

How is this idea any different from the other expert options? It's not a skill on one of your characters, it is just a preference, plain and simple.

 

Mostly just saying that for the little guy who might want to revert his choice. Personally, I would stick with it. But I see nothing wrong with wanting to change it back on.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Sir Chaox

[Hassat Hunter]

Because adding a toggle for it COMPLETELY and UTTERLY destroys it's purpose.

 

Which, I repeat, is to "prevent roleplayers any and all lure of altering their gameplay for XP"...

Let's see how easy the lure is with a big *toggle* option... and then take note it become completely, and utterly pointless...

Edited February 7, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[Sir Chaox]

Because adding a toggle for it COMPLETELY and utterly destroys it's purpose.

 

Which, I repeat, is to prevent "roleplayers any and all lure of altering their gameplay for XP"...

Let's see how easy the lure is with a big *toggle* option... and then take note it become completely, and utterly pointless...

 

Totally misread your post. You are saying ALL expert options should be permanent. I agree with this. However, if not all expert options are permanent, and they are indeed toggle-able (I believe someone stated this earlier), then this option should also be toggle-able. That's what I was trying to say.

 

Basically, it should be treated as an expert option in however they choose to treat such options... either permanently or as preference toggles in the options screen. I'd prefer it to be permanent or else it won't feel as much like an accomplishment to play through, though I suppose it is up to me what options I choose and how far I stick with them.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Sir Chaox

[Hassat Hunter]

So, toggable when selecting Expert mode (which is stated to be in, you can pick whatever you want to add to your game) but no longer togable ingame?

Because if so, yeah, that's what I want (and most likely will be the situation PE will have)

 

If so, I probably misread you too (thinking you should just be able to toggle it on and off ingame)...

[Sir Chaox]

So, toggable when selecting Expert mode (which is stated to be in, you can pick whatever you want to add to your game) but no longer togable ingame?

Because if so, yeah, that's what I want (and most likely will be the situation PE will have)

 

If so, I probably misread you too (thinking you should just be able to toggle it on and off ingame)...

 

Personally, I like this idea and would want to try it out. If it were a toggled option, then I would not be tempted by it because I want to keep it on. So ultimately, at least for me, having it as a toggle in the options to change even while in-game would not change my choice; I would still keep it on.

 

I get your point though. I do think that certain expert preferences should be permanent, without going back, if it effects the game's difficulty: things like perma-death. I don't think this idea particularly affects the difficulty, but it does affect gameplay, which is why I would not mind it as an in-game toggle. However, if you told me to choose, I'd say keep it permanent. It would make for a more interesting playthrough.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Sir Chaox

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I don't really see a benefit of hiding it. If quest xp was hidden, it would be easily worked out due to your character's xp changing from x to y. I also don't understand why people would reload to find out what gave you the most xp, unless you were writing a walkthrough. And if you wanted to get the maximum xp, a walkthrough would be far easier to check then reloading all the time.

[Sir Chaox]

I don't really see a benefit of hiding it. If quest xp was hidden, it would be easily worked out due to your character's xp changing from x to y. I also don't understand why people would reload to find out what gave you the most xp, unless you were writing a walkthrough. And if you wanted to get the maximum xp, a walkthrough would be far easier to check then reloading all the time.

 

The idea is to also hide XP on the character sheet. Basically, no specific numbers on your party's experience anywhere. Maybe the console will tell you when you've received XP but not how much.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

ah ok. That makes sense.

 

Actually, that's pretty awesome. You would never know if you're 50,000 xp or 500xp away from levelling up. If you knew how much you were away from levelling up, you'd do a side quest before taking on a big fight to level up. When all the numbers are taken away, you'd have no idea and may likely do the fight first.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[constantine]

God all this talk of hiding exp feedback .. Zero reason to hide exp gained as it should have zero impact on player. You mean you would go back on the action you chose and found to your liking just to get more exp ?! If yes, then know that Obsidian is not making their game for people like you. You are not gonna that option.

[Hassat Hunter]

It's more "not knowing when you're going to level up" so it's more a surprise, and less something you anticipate and work for (oh, only 300xp, better do one quick exploration before this mission)...

 

So yes, I am *still* off the opinion this could add a lot for roleplayers and others who like that play, and would thus be a good idea for an option...

[rjshae]

So, toggable when selecting Expert mode (which is stated to be in, you can pick whatever you want to add to your game) but no longer togable ingame?

Because if so, yeah, that's what I want (and most likely will be the situation PE will have)

 

I would only want this if it is a setting you pick at the start of the game: whether to allow changes to expert mode or not in-game. Otherwise I strongly disagree. I want to be able to change the settings if I find they result in tedious game play and ruin the experience, rather than having to start over. There's no reason that lack of inhibition by some players should be a reason to punish and control everybody else. Just agree with yourself not to change the settings, then stick with it.

[Hassat Hunter]

Just agree with yourself not to change the settings, then stick with it.

Isn't that what expert IS for?

Just like Ironmode, it's a tool to help you prevent breaking your own promises.

 

If you can just flip it off with a switch ingame, the tool to achieve this has just become useless. And the entire expert mode can be scrapped in favor of "people just agreeing with themselves" since about every option there is is just to enforce that on players.

"I want hardcore dead"... "nah, too hard, let's just switch it off for now"

Well, there you go, you've just murdered the sole reason why Expert mode exist in the first place. If people trusted themselves to limit themselves, such options wouldn't be needed in the first place.