Fear: UIv2

[Mor]

Who is the vocal minority? Based on the poll and discussion here, I think it's clear most people do not want this "modern" (NWN onwards) minimalist UI you keep talking about. But maybe we should make yet another poll.

So far you are. Like many post here, your pool is nothing but an appeal to sense of nostalgia, with no constitutive component. We all like the UI in BG, but there is a huge gap between then and now in terms of hardware and this design just don't cut it. Edited December 15, 2013 by Mor

[Larkaloke]

Of all of the UIs in all of the RPGs I have played over the years, from the rather old to the quite new, those of Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale remain my favourites. I liked Icewind Dale IIs as well, although not as well as the first two. I dislike transparent UIs, and I particularly dislike floating ones -- it's far too easy to accidentally move them around, and I dislike how they look. To me they give an insubstantial feel that is contrary to what I want to see, and tends to clash with the game world rather than blending into it. I prefer a grounded UI that is integrated with the style of the game. The stone and wood and all was quite nice in the aforementioned games.

 

I attempted to think of an example of a recent RPG UI which I liked, but the most recent one I could think of was Lionheart, and that was really not so recent any more. All the recent ones I can think of were not in styles that were to my taste, and many had glaring issues as well (such as Skyrim's mousewheel mania).

 

I do prefer the |_| style, as I in fact rather like how it frames the action, but I have no real issue with a solid and interesting bar UI across the bottom of the screen, either. I would be somewhat annoyed by one with a gap in the middle, and would prefer a gap at the sides to that (although no gap would be best).

 

The mouse movement side of it does not matter to me, but being lefthanded, I can say that if there were only one bar I would prefer it to be on the right side of the screen. It makes more sense to me. However, I wouldn't care all that much.

 

 

 

Who is the vocal minority? Based on the poll and discussion here, I think it's clear most people do not want this "modern" (NWN onwards) minimalist UI you keep talking about. But maybe we should make yet another poll.

So far you are. Like many post here, your pool is nothing but an appeal to sense of nostalgia, with no constitutive component. We all like the UI in BG, but there is a huge gap between then and now in terms of hardware and this design just don't cut it.

 

 

I am honestly not sure what the hardware matters in this case. Yes, one can now have see-through and drifting UIs, but that doesn't mean that they're the best choice for any given game. Screen resolution is indeed higher than it used to be, and I'll admit that for people with widescreen and very large screens that could be something of an issue with the |_| style, but I think it could be worked past relatively easily with scaling overall and a bit of extra space on the sides for those with widescreen monitors.

 

I would also not say that nostalgia is the right word for it, since I believe that most of us here -- and especially those in favour of more solid UIs -- still play all of those games and still enjoy them as much as ever. It's not a memory of a pleasant thing; it's what we like. Liking a style that was more commonly used in the past is not nostalgia, it is a preference for something that is not so commonly seen any longer. Similarly, I presume that you do not prefer the minimalist UI simply because it is newer, and rather because that is what you prefer. I respect that, and you surely have your right to this preference, but just as those of us who dislike that style have often had to put up with it even in games we otherwise enjoy, there are times when you must put up with a different style because that is what that game's style dictates. This, I believe, is such a case.

[Sensuki]

So far you are. Like many post here, your pool is nothing but an appeal to sense of nostalgia, with no constitutive component. We all like the UI in BG, but there is a huge gap between then and now in terms of hardware and this design just don't cut it.

Once again. You fail to use the search function.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63854-ui-style-preference/

 

This poll has a 60% favor to the larger skeuomorphic UI design.

 

The posts in the Update 54 thread also suggest a large amount of posters that like this UI.

 

The developers in a recent interview also stated that the minimalists are an 'insignificant' crowd.

 

User interface is one of them. The majority of our backers, we’re pretty confident, want more skeuomorphic, solid-style user interfaces.

 

Old-style, Baldur’s Gate interfaces.

 

JS: Yeah. And there is a non-trivial segment of people that don’t. They want a more modern-looking one.

 

We’re not doing it. We’re not going to make two user interfaces, and sometimes we have to make a decision that goes one direction and can’t support the other.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2071423/deep-dive-with-pillars-of-eternity-project-lead-josh-sawyer-the-full-interview.html?page=7

 

Puts less strain on the wrist long term, less movement of mouse, and makes it faster to perform. Short term not a big deal but over the course of hundreds of encounters? It adds up.

I find it amusing that people continue to use these arguments without evidence. Also not taking into account mouse settings at all. Did you see the example of the BG2 UI that I gave using mspaint? The three mouse movements required to select a portrait, select an ability at the bottom and select a unit on the map are actually very natural movements. Also you are not taking into account distance on the mousepad. Very small movements can actually be harder to make than medium ones as well.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Sensuki

[Karkarov]

I am honestly not sure what the hardware matters in this case. Yes, one can now have see-through and drifting UIs, but that doesn't mean that they're the best choice for any given game. Screen resolution is indeed higher than it used to be, and I'll admit that for people with widescreen and very large screens that could be something of an issue with the |_| style, but I think it could be worked past relatively easily with scaling overall and a bit of extra space on the sides for those with widescreen monitors.

I think the issue is that the U ui shape is basically 50% dead space for anyone with a normal modern resolution like 1080 or higher.  Additionally people keep assuming "minimalist" means wire frame, NWN 1, or movable boxes for some reason.  First off NWN 1 UI is atrocious, it is just plain bad.  NWN also is NOT a modern UI, it is just as out dated as BG's UI is.  That said there is plenty of room to do something artistic, functional, and also compact with your UI.  It is just the loud and in your face forum users don't want to accept that and oppose anything that is different from BG 2 pretty much universally.  Which doesn't make them right, or a majority, just really loud.

 

 

The developers in a recent interview also stated that the minimalists are an 'insignificant' crowd.

 

JS: Yeah. And there is a non-trivial segment of people that don’t. They want a more modern-looking one.

.... Non-Trivial is actually the opposite of Insignificant.  Also I don't want a more modern "looking" one.  I want a more modern "designed" one.

[Rostere]

 

Who is the vocal minority? Based on the poll and discussion here, I think it's clear most people do not want this "modern" (NWN onwards) minimalist UI you keep talking about. But maybe we should make yet another poll.

So far you are.

 

This is just a baseless statement.

 

 

Like many post here, your pool is nothing but an appeal to sense of nostalgia, with no constitutive component.

 

I'm not a native speaker of English, but "no constitutive component"? Even if it was just an appeal to nostalgia (it's not - it's a question of aesthetics) it surely has a constitutive component by definition? Anyway, the only "constitutive component" necessary is your own aesthetic preference of one type of design over another.

 

 

We all like the UI in BG, but there is a huge gap between then and now in terms of hardware and this design just don't cut it.

 

What the actual ****? This has to do with aesthetic direction, not hardware. Besides, there are no fundamental differences in rendering difficulty between UI suggestions I've seen so hardware has nothing to do with this.

[Sensuki]

Case in point. My ui mock ups evolved and changed based on feedback from posters. Sensuki's not so much. The fact that you guys have to keep falling back on petty insults and flames to me also speaks volumes.

Your mockup does not include feedback from users. Your UI includes the total amount of action bar buttons on Obsidian's U1v1 mockup. I will not pretend that mine does either. My mockup includes the larger BG1 style portraits, removes most of the dead space on the UI and allows room for 24 interactive buttons and all of the menu options required. My UI is more functional than yours will ever be. The only negative of mine is that IF you want to see negligible amounts of the screen below the UI height is that you can't.

 

Mine however, could be improved as it does not handle Animal companions and it does not have room for extra class resources such as the Monk's Wounds or the Cipher's Power bars. I could still remove the decorative pillars and squash things in together a bit more though. I could also trim the decorative bar from the top, or thin it to a couple of pixels.

 

You photoshopped yours quite well and the decorative part looks nice, but it doesn't have as much functionality as mine does.

 

 

Everyone's opinion should count and has value to a point but when you basically ram your opinion down everyone's throat and admit that you don't care what other people think and feel you are "more important" than other forum users... well...

As far as I am concerned, you are ramming yours down ours as well and you also act with an air of superiority so that's the pot calling the kettle black tbh.

 

The fact that you guys have to keep falling back on petty insults and flames to me also speaks volumes.

The only person calling you out is me, and I have made a mockery of your favor of Dragon Age Origins and XCOM Enemy Unknown as tactical RPGs and your proposition of buttons like select all and formations at the top of the screen. Also your use of mainstream game reviews as evidence to support your claim that XCOM is a good example of 'tactical RPG UI design' when it is a console game with significantly less inputs.

 

As far as I am concerned all of those things are truths, as well. DA:O and XCOM are only tactical games if you haven't played any past tactical games of note from the 90s or early 00s.

 

Since Sensuki isn't very civil and there is clearly no mutual respect

Goddamn right. I don't like you or the userbase that you are part of and I don't like what you stand for.

 

But the benefit of dishing out the brutal truth is unlike most people, you always know where I stand.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Sensuki

[Mor]

I am honestly not sure what the hardware matters in this case. Yes, one can now have see-through and drifting UIs, but that doesn't mean that they're the best choice for any given game. Screen resolution is indeed higher than it used to be, and I'll admit that for people with widescreen and very large screens that could be something of an issue with the |_| style, but I think it could be worked past relatively easily with scaling overall and a bit of extra space on the sides for those with widescreen monitors.

1. Here are couple of examples of hardware related maters that I was able to think of: Post 1,second part of Post 2.

2. I haven't made any claims about the best UI for any given game, I explained why I think that the U style design doesn't work and I expressed my opinion that UI isn't made from nostalgic sentiments, but from practical suggestions.

3. BTW today the vast majority has widescreen monitors, they are probably not those which are going to get scaled.

 

I would also not say that nostalgia is the right word for it, since I believe that most of us here -- and especially those in favour of more solid UIs -- still play all of those games and still enjoy them as much as ever. It's not a memory of a pleasant thing; it's what we like. Liking a style that was more commonly used in the past is not nostalgia, it is a preference for something that is not so commonly seen any longer.

I do, for example this post is nothing but an talk of nostalgia, rather than something practical that can be used.

 

Similarly, I presume that you do not prefer the minimalist UI simply because it is newer, and rather because that is what you prefer. I respect that, and you surely have your right to this preference, but just as those of us who dislike that style have often had to put up with it even in games we otherwise enjoy, there are times when you must put up with a different style because that is what that game's style dictates. This, I believe, is such a case.

You presume wrong. I think that U shaped UI like in BG won't work here(and that a bottom design is very likely is a done deal) other than that all those assumptions about me preferring "minimalist", "drifting", non "solid UIs" or whatever, is nothing but your black and white view. Just because its bottom UI it doesn't have to be any of that and as far as I seen in Obsidian early non painted mockup, it wasn't.

 

 

EDIT:

@Rostere. Constructive not constitutive, auto checker misclick.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Mor

[Helm]

So much discussion and we haven't even seen an official mock up or screenshot of the HUD or UI.

[Mor]

You mean a new mock up since update 54

[Helm]

Yes.

[Sensuki]

I think that U shaped UI like in BG won't work here(and that a bottom design is very likely is a done deal) other than that all those assumptions about me preferring "minimalist", "drifting", non "solid UIs" or whatever, is nothing but your black and white view. Just because its bottom UI it doesn't have to be any of that and as far as I seen in Obsidian early non painted mockup, it wasn't.

One of the best things about using a U shaped UI on a 16:9 screen is that it can give you the same 16:9 perspective of the game. The screenshots where the BG2 Widescreen mod UI was pasted over it actually looked really good, despite taking up more physical space than the bottom par in pixels.

 

Alas once again I fear I have to state that I do not actually think this will ever be used to avoid some misquote.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

The fact that you guys have to keep falling back on petty insults and flames to me also speaks volumes.

Says the guy who told me to get a life because you found my persistence annoying. You also used the "no offense but actually I do mean offense" tactic. Whatever I am, you're just as bad - or worse.

[Kaldurenik]

I want a ui that is not "floating" it should have enough quick slots so that you can have the things you want. Each character should have his/her oown quick slots. Quick slots should be 1-0 or 1-9.

All the important ui elements should be on the screen. Inv, text (event / dmg) journal, character info, health / character "mana" (or whatever they have), buffs / debuffs and so on.

 

I dont think there is a need for a giant BG ui. But i dont like the "super none ui" ways to do them either. There should be some stuff on the sceen. I guess i can make a fast job in paint or something for a few ways that i like... Later when i have time.

[Justinian]

 

I think that U shaped UI like in BG won't work here(and that a bottom design is very likely is a done deal) other than that all those assumptions about me preferring "minimalist", "drifting", non "solid UIs" or whatever, is nothing but your black and white view. Just because its bottom UI it doesn't have to be any of that and as far as I seen in Obsidian early non painted mockup, it wasn't.

One of the best things about using a U shaped UI on a 16:9 screen is that it can give you the same 16:9 perspective of the game. The screenshots where the BG2 Widescreen mod UI was pasted over it actually looked really good, despite taking up more physical space than the bottom par in pixels.

 

Alas once again I fear I have to state that I do not actually think this will ever be used to avoid some misquote.

 

 

While it would be nice to retain the 16:9 ratio with a U shape UI, I think the focusing of icons and character portraits in one general location is easier on the player during gameplay. That said, I definitely think the first mock-up can be improved.

[Sensuki]

Hypothetically or from experience?

[Karkarov]

 

The fact that you guys have to keep falling back on petty insults and flames to me also speaks volumes.

Says the guy who told me to get a life because you found my persistence annoying. You also used the "no offense but actually I do mean offense" tactic. Whatever I am, you're just as bad - or worse.

 

I don't find your "persistence" annoying, I find it dumb.  You claim I am "ramming my opinion" down peoples throats but I am not the one who created this thread.  I am not even the one who linked the last mock up I did in this thread.  I supposedly am jonesing for a UI just like Dragon Age and Xcom yet until this post I hadn't mentioned either of those games in this entire thread.  In fact what is the one thing I did say in this actual thread that I feel is needed to make the UI satisfy me?  The ability to hide the combat log.  Well that and avoid the terrible U UI shape that was only ever used because they wanted a click only interface back in 1990 and needed to make room for all the buttons and resolution was too small to allow that otherwise.

 

But please by all means instead of replying to what I just typed go scour the forums looking for other posts from other threads likely from months ago and start cherry picking sentences to take out of context and use those to reply to instead.  If you could find a way to confine your reply to only one post this time though I am sure everyone would appreciate it.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Karkarov

[Sensuki]

Oh now you're speaking as the voice of the community. Feeling alone? Looking for a little support? Perhaps I hurt your feelings. 

 

I find it dumb

 

Only further proves my point. Already proved that the statements weren't taken out of context - but feel free to keep telling yourself that they were.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Sensuki

[CaptainMace]

 

BG:EE UI is awful.

 

 

No need to fight guys, Sensuki already admitted that BG UI is awful...

[Sensuki]

No, the Beamdog Baldur's Gate Encumbered Edition and Baldur's Gate 2: Encumbered Edition UI is awful. The BGEE one provides the same functionality but has horrible art and low res art assets.

 

I have not played BG2:EE (I refuse to purchase another Beamdog product) but I have seen the UI and it looks ghastly, but the art is at least, better than the BG:EE one.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Sensuki

[Doppelschwert]

Oh now you're speaking as the voice of the community. Feeling alone? Looking for a little support? Perhaps I hurt your feelings. 

 

Well, seriously, karkarov has a point. This is by far not a civil discussion and I know forums where people get banned for this kind of behaviour. I'm indifferent on the UI, but it would propably be for the best to calm a little down sometimes...

 

[Sensuki]

This is not the Bethesda forums.

[Larkaloke]

1. Here are couple of examples of hardware related maters that I was able to think of: Post 1,second part of Post 2.

2. I haven't made any claims about the best UI for any given game, I explained why I think that the U style design doesn't work and I expressed my opinion that UI isn't made from nostalgic sentiments, but from practical suggestions.

3. BTW today the vast majority has widescreen monitors, they are probably not those which are going to get scaled.

All right. Well, I think that if one put the feedback box to one side and the buttons to the other side it would work better for widescreen, and I don't think that your widscreen example in the first post you linked looks that bad (although I think it would look better if the feedback box remained the same size and was just surrounded by more stone). On the other hand, I do agree that the UI should be functional for all aspect ratios, and if most people who have widescreens dislike a stretched out bar such as that then it does indeed present a problem.

 

I assumed that you were referring to the poll because your preference was opposite to how it turned out, so I apologise for that; it was leaping to conclusions. The part about nostalgia was mostly more generally directed as well, since that is something that I have seen said quite a lot to dismiss people's preferences towards anything that is not the newest thing (just as I've seen other people dismiss people preferences for styles that happen to be newer by saying that they only want the newest thing; neither is useful and both are annoying). Your post reminded me of that, but I should've made it more clear that this was a general thing and not addressed specifically to you.

 

I realise that the majority use widescreen monitors at this point, and that I am decidedly in the minority with my 5:4 monitor. The problem, indeed, is that (as per your mockup in the first post), if the UI fits the aspect ratio of my monitor or even slightly less square ones it leaves large blank gaps on a 6:9 monitor, and if it would fit a wider aspect ratio it would get squished or cut off on mine. Looking at your second post there, your example of an artistic UI looks good, and I would certainly not be averse to something like that which is easy to expand and contract and also looks good.

 

Also, I agree that their original mockup in Update #54 is still the best I've seen. My only slight problem with it was that I am not fond of square character portraits, because I prefer them slightly taller than they are wide, but everything else looked fine to me. I don't even mind the square portraits all that much; it's just harder to get an aesthetically pleasing crop of the larger portrait in there. What we've seen of the journal screen and such also looks good so far to me.

 

Morgulon the Wise's mockup on page 21 of the Update thread is the only other one I've thought looked good so far, but that's with a sidebar, which to me would be an improvement but which we know is not happening (I do far prefer having the character portraits up along the right side; the right side of the screen is where I tend to look first).

 

I do, for example this post is nothing but an talk of nostalgia, rather than something practical that can be used.

I did make a suggestion, which I feel makes sense. Yes, widescreen monitors are more common, but often what happens if you scale something that was intended for widescreen to a non-widescreen monitor you get a rather squished and too-large UI with text that is also glaringly large. I find that problematic. A central area that is the same for all aspect ratios with some manner of decorative extenders for widescreens makes the most sense to me. Granted, I am clearly speaking from the perspective of not having a widescreen monitor, so that could be a solution that is aggravating to most who do have them. I don't know.

 

The same sort of thing often comes up as a problem with websites, which is a problem I'm personally more familiar with dealing with, and certainly in that case it's better to have extra space on the sides for widescreens than to have non-widescreens not able to see all of it. It seems to me that this would be the same in the case of UI design.

 

You presume wrong. I think that U shaped UI like in BG won't work here(and that a bottom design is very likely is a done deal) other than that all those assumptions about me preferring "minimalist", "drifting", non "solid UIs" or whatever, is nothing but your black and white view. Just because its bottom UI it doesn't have to be any of that and as far as I seen in Obsidian early non painted mockup, it wasn't.

Yes, the bottom design I think is a done deal, so I view much of this discussion as a theoretical excercise. I've already admitted that I took the post of yours I quoted in error, it would seem: I assumed that your response meant that you did not favour a solid UI, as the poll being referred to was about that question. Everything I said still holds true as my opinion about people who do prefer minimalist or non-solid UIs, but clearly then that does not include you.

 

I don't believe it's black and white, though. There are some grey areas, but mostly games have either had a completely solid looking and stationary UI or a seethrough and movable one. There have been cases I can think of with seethrough and stationary ones, but no solid looking and movable ones that come to mind. I can also think of a few that have mostly seethrough or minimalistic UIs but have more solid ones on character screens and such, and I do prefer those to the completely seethrough style, although I prefer a completely solid style.

 

There has not been a UI that I was fond of in an RPG since Lionheart, but I don't think it's impossible to design one that would work with widescreen and high resolution monitors as well as with non-widescreen and lower resolution ones -- although I do definitely think that it is harder.

[JFSOCC]

The things I care about in a good UI:

1. I see nothing that I don't need to see. (I don't need to see the skill levels of some character I haven't selected, for instance)

2. I see everything which is currently important clearly. (like status effects)

3. All the information which I could potentially require is available within 3 clicks or button presses at the most. (Say I want to know what the skill level of a character I haven't is. select character, character screen, skills tab, that's 3, no more.)

4. I should be able to quickly switch between characters to give them orders

5. Any commands I give should take no more than 3 clicks. 1 for character selection, 1 for skill, ability or spell selection, 1 for target.

5b. Queued up commands are important information (#2)

6. I want to be able to move everything around, and adjust anything in size. I should be able to save those positions as presets.

7. Use as little screen real-estate as possible. I want to look at the map I'm playing on, not Robocop's HUD.

8. Shortkeys for everything.

[Karkarov]

 

This is not the Bethesda forums.

Oh we know Sensuki.  You wouldn't ever be caught on the forum of a company that makes such low quality games as Skyrim and Fallout 3.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Karkarov

[Hassat Hunter]

It is just an efficiency issue.  When you select a character the buttons on the action bar obviously change to reflect the character you have selected.  So when you need to do a number of different actions on different characters it is just invariably easier if the action bar is nearer the portraits so there is as little movement as possible while you set up your actions.  Puts less strain on the wrist long term, less movement of mouse, and makes it faster to perform.  Short term not a big deal but over the course of hundreds of encounters?  It adds up.

Not exactly so obviously.

Not always do you select by the portrait, or clicking. One can drag.

 

My idea mostly revolves around... "why change the HUD based on the selected char, why limir options for one character"

So if you select your whole band, go to the bottom bar and select 'skills' you get ALL of them of the selected characters. No character-swapping needed, no little actions (I seriously doubt you can put all actions and spells on the bar under or above the portrait). The wide-screen can be perfectly used for it, it's width allowing many many different things to appear at once.

 

So in the end, you don't even need to CHANGE characters that often anymore. How's that for reducing strains on your wrists?

The only problem I'm still thinking about though is the quick-slots mentioned. Allowing 10 slots for all characters will add to screenpolution if allowing to use all of them to appear at the same time. I suppose having 10 generic for all works, but I wonder if people would be satisfied by such a solution.