No Defense scores or Skill check targets in Expert Mode please

[Sabotin]

Depending on how diverse/active enemies will be I think knowing some of their stats might not even be such a big deal. The player classes seem to have a bunch of different abilities and I believe someone said that enemies will have some unique ones, too. For example something like the monk that gets power from taking damage. You'd quickly learn to not get fooled by the low defenses. Or maybe a bunch of weaklings that powers up at low hp. AoE damage might not be such a good idea after all. Etc... But if such "tricks" are there then I guess the stat transparency doesn't even matter, expert or not.

 

On a related not, what about knowing what spells are being cast? 3e had you make spellcraft checks to recognize a spell iirc. Considering the cast times will be 0/3/6 seconds long this might be a factor? An extra unknown for expert mode?

[Sensuki]

We don't know many of the skills yet

 

Confirmed skills:

 

Stealth, Mechanics, Athletics, Survival.

 

Look up the D&D 4E handbook and you've probably got a bunch of other candidates.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Sensuki

[Lephys]

I might be mistaken, but I could've sworn the original Baldur's Gate DOES show enemy health approximations. It just doesn't show "uninjured." It starts with "barely injured," I think. I can't remember though. I'll have to check on my laptop shortly (can't check right now).

 

It's been a few months since I've played it (I picked up Enhanced Edition shortly after I started the original), but I seem to recall wondering that same thing while playing the original: "Hmm... I wonder if mouse-overs will tell me how hurt this enemy is...", and testing it out. My brain's even recalling trying it on something I hadn't attacked yet, only to think "Oh, it doesn't," then accidentally discovering that it shows on the injured foes while trying to choose a target while the game was paused.

[Mor]

No.

 

If I already know the DT, Vulnerabilities, Accuracy & Defenses of an enemy, then I can look at the stat popup and go oh okay - I see what I need to do here. That is exactly what I do not want. I want to figure it out for myself. 

We will have to disagree, hiding the feedback only dumbdown the few tactical elements we have, it's a con which out weight by far your supposed sense of discovery. What you suggest should be implemented(maybe it already is?) through the "bestiary", which you will fill up through reading books, conversation and/or combat. If that isn't enough UI transparency is your friend.

[Sensuki]

 

No.

 

If I already know the DT, Vulnerabilities, Accuracy & Defenses of an enemy, then I can look at the stat popup and go oh okay - I see what I need to do here. That is exactly what I do not want. I want to figure it out for myself.

We will have to disagree, hiding the feedback only dumbdown the few tactical elements we have, it's a con which out weight by far your supposed sense of discovery. What you suggest should be implemented(maybe it already is?) through the "bestiary", which you will fill up through reading books, conversation and/or combat. If that isn't enough UI transparency is your friend.

 

 

Already said I'm not going to read it. You already have what you want - the default settings and you go and vote yes, show me stats in Expert mode ... lol.

 

I might be mistaken, but I could've sworn the original Baldur's Gate DOES show enemy health approximations. It just doesn't show "uninjured." It starts with "barely injured," I think. I can't remember though. I'll have to check on my laptop shortly (can't check right now).

 

It's been a few months since I've played it (I picked up Enhanced Edition shortly after I started the original), but I seem to recall wondering that same thing while playing the original: "Hmm... I wonder if mouse-overs will tell me how hurt this enemy is...", and testing it out. My brain's even recalling trying it on something I hadn't attacked yet, only to think "Oh, it doesn't," then accidentally discovering that it shows on the injured foes while trying to choose a target while the game was paused.

Many people get confused. BGT/BG Tutu and BG:EE show Health Approximations because they use the BG2 engine. BG1 does not show them.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Sensuki

[Mor]

 

 

No.

 

If I already know the DT, Vulnerabilities, Accuracy & Defenses of an enemy, then I can look at the stat popup and go oh okay - I see what I need to do here. That is exactly what I do not want. I want to figure it out for myself.

We will have to disagree, hiding the feedback only dumbdown the few tactical elements we have, it's a con which out weight by far your supposed sense of discovery. What you suggest should be implemented(maybe it already is?) through the "bestiary", which you will fill up through reading books, conversation and/or combat. If that isn't enough UI transparency is your friend.

 

 

Already said I'm not going to read it. You already have what you want - the default settings and you go and vote yes, show me stats in Expert mode ... lol.

 

Its more than that. Your OP doesn't provide anything to make informative vote regarding the need for something like in your AC check example. Only some vague appeal to sense of atmosphere in other titles that doesn't actually address this. Did I enjoy more the titles you mentioned and had no AC values? yes. Was it because they did't have AC values it? no.

 

As many pointed out, it makes no sense to hide information which should be apparent to anyone with eyes to see, and will only hurt gameplay(in the same sense as placing a big censored box over the enemy) while what you are looking to achieve with that IMO can be achieved far better with my Bestiary suggestion, which unlike your idea will only improve.

 

EDIT: sorry for the large font in previous post, apparently using zoom in chrom and BBCOde mode has its side effects.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Mor

[Sensuki]

Its more than that. Your OP doesn't provide anything to make informative vote regarding the need for something like in your AC check example. Only some vague appeal to sense of atmosphere in other titles that doesn't actually address this. Did I enjoy more the titles you mentioned and had no AC values? yes. Was it because they did't have AC values it? no.

 

As many pointed out, it makes no sense to hide information which should be apparent to anyone with eyes to see, and will only hurt gameplay(in the same sense as placing a big censored box over the enemy) while what you are looking to achieve with that IMO can be achieved far better with my Bestiary suggestion, which unlike your idea will only improve.

You still don't get it.

 

The whole point of Expert Mode is to provide a mode that provides that "horrible old-school method of obfuscation" as well as enables the more punishing gameplay elements that retards like me enjoy. There are a big enough crowd of us to warrant it's input, especially over at the RPG Codex. Even the lead designer Josh Sawyer thinks obfuscation stinks, but the mode is being provided regardless.

 

It does not matter whether hiding the Defense scores or skill check threshholds are better or worse, it's about providing that old-school, more hardcore experience. Expert Mode is not a 'selection of help and hardcore' it is 95-100% of help settings off, as the devs described it.

 

This is obviously something that you do not like, and I have no doubt that Expert Mode will not be for you. Way to cast a null vote.

 

I also think the name of the mode is a bit confusing, there's obviously a few people who "want to be experts" but want the transparency. Congratulations - default settings for you. Classic Mode would be a better name IMO.

 

The settings are fully modular. Instead of ticking Expert Mode at the start you just go and untick all of the options you don't want and leave on the ones you do. So instead of ticking Expert Mode when you start a game, you just start a normal game, and go into the options and disable the conversation stuff that you want disabled and keep the combat help on. Simple.

 

Expert Mode is an all or nothing mode that can only be enabled before starting the game and it cannot be turned off.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Sensuki

[Mor]

It does not matter whether hiding the Defense scores or skill check threshholds are better or worse, it's about providing that old-school, more hardcore experience. Expert Mode is not a 'selection of help and hardcore' it is 95-100% of help settings off, as the dev's described it.

No, it seems that you don't get it. Again, the AC example you provided, is not there to make your life easier(help). It provides vital information about your encounter, which is the only way to gauge your opponent strength, just as like with health info, it is nothing you shouldn't be able to see with your own eyes. Such info is no more "help" then the description you got in FO when used the binoculars on the surrounding.

 

Just because you keep throwing around "Old School" and "Hardcore", it doesn't mean that you are the only "old school" player who might enjoy extra level of challenge in the game, nor that we gone senile forgetting that despite years of modding our classics still has their fair share of issues. So unless you have anything other than BG1 did it, your argument is as logical as the suggestion from few post back, to fit the player with a blind fold, you know as "horrible old-school method of obfuscation", to provide some Hardcore experience ...

Edited November 16, 2013 by Mor

[Sensuki]

You want to debate about the pros and cons of showing and obfuscating Defenses? Before we do that, let's clear something up.

 

First of all, this is how it is.

 

How will this information be conveyed to users?

 

For armor, will the UI display the effective DT values in a tooltip? If not, will it be hidden within a deeper menu? Will there be positive DT modifiers for armor?

 

Will the battle log display damage calculations? Example: Right click on a damage event to see an itemized list of modifiers.

 

Currently, it's displayed in the tooltip. An enemy's tooltip starts out with defense and DT numbers filled in with grey ???. As you attack the target's defenses, they get filled in with the real values. Additionally, we're planning to allow the bestiary entries to temp-fill those values. So if you've defeated a certain number of ogres, you basically know what the Platonic form of ogre has for defenses. When you encounter an ogre, those grey ???s will be replaced with grey "Platonic form" values. An individual ogre's defenses may vary from that base, but that's what you'll start with until you attack those defenses.

 

If any of your characters are currently selected and have attacks prepped, their relative Accuracy stats with those attacks will be displayed next to the target's corresponding defenses. If an Accuracy is lower than a comparable defense, it is displayed in red. If higher, it's displayed in blue. If multiple attackers are attacking the same defense, their Accuracy is displayed as an average and notated accordingly.

 

Finally, most/all of these display options can be disabled or are automatically disabled in Expert mode.

E: If you hover on any entry in the combat log, you get a "verbose" dump of all of the elements that contribute to the formula.

 

By default, you will get exactly what you want. The defense values of enemies will be displayed in the tootlip, after you attack them you will get the real value of that defense.

Because the showing of defenses are being handled by a tooltip rather than by the combat log, they may actually not be displayed in the combat log, because you'll know what the defense is anyway.

 

Expert mode will disable these tooltips. It will disable the Health status of enemies as well. These two things have already been confirmed. Now this thread is about whether or not the display of Defenses comes up in the combat log as well. Are you saying that you will play with these tooltips disabled, but you want to still see the Defense values in the combat log ?

 

I am pretty sure you are not going to disable these tooltips anyway by the sound of it, that's why I believe Expert Mode will not be for you.

 

Instead, as I previously said, you will not tick expert mode when you start a game, you will have the option of manually disabling the things you do not wish to see via the options menu.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Sensuki

[Mor]

As previously said, magically gaining information about character stats in way of a tooltip or otherwise, is considered help and thus fit the bill of expert mode. While removing information that you should be able to see or gauge from the situation, is as smart as blindfold.

[Sensuki]

Take that up with the devs, clearly expert mode is not what you want it to be, hahah.

 

Default = everything on (help)

Expert mode = everything off (no help)

 

Expert mode is separate from difficulty, AFAIK the only thing we know that it does do in regards to making the game physically harder is enables permanent death. There may be some other small things as well. We are not sure yet.

 

Other than that though all it does is turn all the helper information off, everything.

 

You are clearly in between - your preference is covered, don't tick expert mode (which forces everything off) and select the options you want. Problem solved.

 

Like I said from the very first post, Expert mode is essentially BG1 mode.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Sensuki

[TrashMan]

 

I don't see why.

There is a difference bitween "too much feedback" or "too detailed feedback" and "no feedback".

 

The player should have access to knowledge the PC should have. And hte PC should be able to roughly gauge the shape the enemy is in.

 

Some king of "expert" mode that purposfully handicaps you beyond reason for challange is silly IMHO.

I don't know what games you have been playing, but Baldur's Gate showed no health status of enemies and plenty of other RPGs before it also did not.

 

Josh Sawyer would agree with you that feedback is good because it allows people that do not already have an in depth knowledge of the system to engage with it.

 

Expert mode is a collection of settings that are forced to provide a more hardcore experience.

 

If you don't like that you can:

 

A) Do not tick expert mode

B) Do not tick expert mode, and then go into the options settings and enable the hardcore features you want and leave the ones you don't want out.

 

No Health feedback is already in for Expert mode whether you like it or not. What I am wondering is whether Defenses will be obfuscated from the combat log, because if this feature doesn't make it into expert mode then it most likely won't make it into the game.

 

It would be fair to assume that if stat popups are disabled on enemies then their values *should* be hidden by the game (perhaps not the bestiary) but I'm not 100% sure.

 

"The player should know these things" is not an invalid argument and that's why the default mode has exactly that. Your preference is actually the default setting. Why would you want to infect the hardcore setting with non-hardcore elements ?

 

 

I repeat- thisis silly.

It has nothing to do with "expert" knowledge and everything to do with basic things your character SHOULD be able to tell.

PERIOD.

There is no logicla reason to remove some information other than your desire for more challenge - regardless of how little sense it makes. And that is fake challenge. Hardcore my ass.

 

You might as well argue that EXPERT mode should show no names for characters (because your PC shouldn't remember them), should make the inventory icons invisible (you should have to remember exactly in which grid you put your potion or sword) and similar stuff like that. Hide your own health completely too. And damage while we're at it.

 

What we are talking about it not some EXTRA knowledge, but rather the basic, that any Bob, **** and Harry should know.

 

There is absolutelyn o logical reason to take that away.

You might as well start the game with a one-armed, one-legged character for that handicap.

 

[Sensuki]

Nice Straw man argument there.

 

I'll join in the re-quoting of myself.

 

 

 

How will this information be conveyed to users?

For armor, will the UI display the effective DT values in a tooltip? If not, will it be hidden within a deeper menu? Will there be positive DT modifiers for armor?

Will the battle log display damage calculations? Example: Right click on a damage event to see an itemized list of modifiers.

 

 

Currently, it's displayed in the tooltip. An enemy's tooltip starts out with defense and DT numbers filled in with grey ???. As you attack the target's defenses, they get filled in with the real values. Additionally, we're planning to allow the bestiary entries to temp-fill those values. So if you've defeated a certain number of ogres, you basically know what the Platonic form of ogre has for defenses. When you encounter an ogre, those grey ???s will be replaced with grey "Platonic form" values. An individual ogre's defenses may vary from that base, but that's what you'll start with until you attack those defenses.

 

If any of your characters are currently selected and have attacks prepped, their relative Accuracy stats with those attacks will be displayed next to the target's corresponding defenses. If an Accuracy is lower than a comparable defense, it is displayed in red. If higher, it's displayed in blue. If multiple attackers are attacking the same defense, their Accuracy is displayed as an average and notated accordingly.

 

Finally, most/all of these display options can be disabled or are automatically disabled in Expert mode.

E: If you hover on any entry in the combat log, you get a "verbose" dump of all of the elements that contribute to the formula.

 

Defense tooltips are turned off in Expert mode. You want them on - no problem, they're on by default in normal mode. Expert mode doesn't look like it will be for you either, you clearly 'want to be an expert' though.

 

 

 

You could call Expert Mode classic mode perhaps. It does not necessarily mean 'expert'.

Calling it Expert Mode is likely Josh Sawyers own subtle dig at people who like obfuscation (like me).

 

Perhaps they should change the name no? Call it Retard mode. Would you want to play the mode then ?

Edited November 16, 2013 by Sensuki

[Mor]

Are you having a difficulty to understand what is being said? has no logical answer? just hahah trolling, per your last 4 post of repetition? or just trying to win the argument ad nauseam?

 

Since you are fan of repetition here:

As previously said, magically gaining information about character stats in way of a tooltip or otherwise, is considered help and thus fit the bill of expert mode. While removing information that you should be able to see or gauge from the situation, is as smart as blindfold.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Mor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If what is included in Expert Mode pisses you off that much, just don't play it. Instead, use the options to create the experience you want.

[Mor]

If you assume that this is included in Expert mode you should check how Polls work.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Mor

[Sensuki]

Tooltip disable is, but I'm not sure what the combat log shows. I'm pretty sure that target defense is now shown on an attack roll in the log, but not 100% sure
 

Are you having a difficulty to understand what is being said? has no logical answer? just hahah trolling, per your last 4 post of repetition? or just trying to win the argument ad nauseam?

 
Actually it seems you have the comprehension problem. In my last four posts I am not arguing anything I am telling you what is in expert mode based on quotes from Josh Sawyer since you and Trash Man both seemed to miss the point of the thread.
 
The OP stated that Project Eternity has mouse-over tool-tips that show the Defenses of enemies. These tooltips are disabled in Expert Mode, and that is when I stated that I would also prefer they be not shown in the combat log either (mutually exclusive with tooltips disabled).
 
You are trying to argue (to me) that this is a bad thing. Well, you're arguing to the wrong person - I am not the one who decided that they will be disabled in Expert Mode, Josh Sawyer is. I am not the one who decided what Expert Mode is all about, Josh Sawyer is.
 
Expert Mode does not appear to be a mode targeted at you, or Trash Man. It is a mode targeted at the crowd that doesn't want any of the helper information on and it provides an extreme between itself and "default" whereby you can choose which settings you like. Expert mode locks everything off and default mode allows you to enable and disable options on the fly.

I am part of the crowd that does not want any helper information. In relation to the obfuscation of defenses, I do not believe that showing them right off the bat is as important as you make it out to be. Firstly this is how it was in all of the Infinity Engine games. In the IE games there were four attack outcomes: Hit, Miss, Critical Hit and Critical Miss. Critical Miss was on a roll of 1. Critical Hit was a 20 (some classes/abilities/items? altered this range).
 
In Eternity there are still four outcomes which are based upon the assumption that the attacker's accuracy is equal to the defender's relevant defense score: Critical Hit (96-100 on a '100 sided die'), Hit (51-95), Graze (6-50) and Miss (1-5).

 

The formula used to calculate it is:

 

Die Roll + Accuracy - Defense = outcome
 
Here is a use case:
 
(For the record here, one attack = 2 seconds in Project Eternity, from the last available known piece of Information).
 
Ogre A has a Deflection score of 65.
Player 1 has a Melee Accuracy score of 55.
 
Player 1 makes a melee attack against Ogre A.
 
On the default Project Eternity settings, when you mouse over Ogre A, you will get a tooltip that shows the cookie cutter Ogre stats. Let's assume we have not faced an Ogre before so all of these values are three grey ??? like Josh's example says.
 
Player 1's attack roll was 47 + 55 = 102
 
Now we know here that a roll of 47 against an enemy with the same Defense as our attack is going to be a Graze.
 
102 - 65 = 37, so it is a Graze.
 
Player 1 attacks Ogre A: 47 + 55 = 102: Graze
Ogre A takes X damage from Player 1
 
On the default Project Eternity settings, you will now know the Deflection Score of the Ogre. It is 65, so you know that you are attacking an enemy that has 65 Deflection after the first attack.
 
On Expert mode (or with tooltips off) you will only know that the Ogre's Deflection score is between 52 and 97.
 
Player 1 then makes another attack against Ogre A.
 
Player 1 attacks Ogre A: 83 + 55 = 138: Hit
Ogre A takes X damage from Player 1
 
Now we know that Ogre A's Deflection is between 52 and 88.
 
Player 1 then makes another attack against Ogre A.
 
Player 1 attacks Ogre A: 66 + 55 = 121 = 56: Hit
Ogre A takes X damage from Player 1
 
Now we know after these 3 attacks (6 seconds) that Ogre A's Deflection is between 52 and 71.
 
Assuming that the Player is paying attention to the numbers, we now know that the Ogre has a Deflection of around about the same level as Player 1's Melee Accuracy or slightly a bit higher and if we want to hit the Ogre more often, we're going to have to do something to temporarily boost our accuracy for the encounter, change to a target with a lower Deflection score or just hope for some good rolls.
 
Tooltips/Defenses obscured means that instead of magically acquiring the exact value of the Ogre's Deflection score upon the first attack we instead have to pay attention to the numbers to work out an approximate range, and then decide what to do.
 
This feels more "realistic" as after you take a punch at a guy in a bar IRL you don't magically know exactly how good he is at Boxing/Martial Arts upon throwing your first punch, it takes a little bit (but sometimes perhaps not too much) longer to realize whether you're going to make short work of him or you made a baad mistake (not speaking from experience, btw).
 
More importantly it requires you to be paying attention to what's going on in the game. You don't necessarily have to keep track of the numbers because the combat log records them for you, so you can always scroll up, but if you're paying attention on the fly then you should be able to figure out what's going on after a short amount of time.
 
And that is exactly one of the things that Josh Sawyer described in his video in the Kickstarter Update about modes, Expert mode requiring more active attention from the player.

There are many other reasons why I think it's better but these two should suffice for most people's comprehension I think, the main points are that this is how it was in the Infinity Engine games (you know, the games Eternity is inspired by) and it requires more active attention from the player, which is one of the pillars of expert mode as described by Josh in the Kickstarter Update.

 

However it is also possible that the formula shows the Defender's defense score in Expert mode as well, which is what I do not want. Both of you guys (Mor and TrashMan, would no doubt prefer tooltips anyway, so that fact is not really relevant to you).

Edited November 16, 2013 by Sensuki

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If you assume that this is included in Expert mode you should check how Polls work.

Not very good with comprehension are you?

 

If what is included in Expert Mode pisses you off that much, just don't play it. Instead, use the options to create the experience you want.

Again, if you don't like obfuscation of stats, don't play Expert mode. If it is more fun for you to have numbers available, play the game normally, and use the settings to create the experience you find appealing. You don't need to be called an "Expert" to be able to enjoy the game.

[Mor]

Yes, Someone is not very good with comprehension....

 

Obviously if "Don't like obfuscation of stats, don't play Expert mode" was the wining argument your friend think it is, you wouldn't need this poll. It is also nothing more than your interpretation of Dev's choice to disable tooltips help(which among other things presented stat information) as obfuscation of the specific stats mentioned here, which makes no sense and is nothing more than your personal preference, based on your definition of "Expert", which to some of seems misguided at best.

 

If it is more fun for you to have numbers available, play the game normally.

As previously said, magically gaining information about character stats in way of a tooltip or otherwise, is considered help and thus fit the bill of expert mode. While removing information that you should be able to see or gauge from the situation, is as smart as blindfold.

Starting with what we agree upon is that Expert mode intended to provide extra challenge, thus removing help information which was added for convenience sake, fit the bill. What we disagree about is whether the stats in question should be shown or not, we argue that they are not for convenience sake, but the only interaction available with the world. Thus removing it hurts gameplay, makes no sense in terms of realism(unlike omniscient tooltips) and thus more challenging as much as blindfold will. Edited November 17, 2013 by Mor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Yes, Someone is not very good with comprehension....

Nice to see you admit your deficiency.

 

http://eternity.gamepedia.com/Mode

 

Expert mode is going to disable tooltips. FACT. No discussion.

 

If you don't like obfuscation of stats, don't play Expert mode, because Expert mode IS fundamentally the obfuscation of stats.

Edited November 17, 2013 by KaineParker

[Sensuki]

Hahah this guy ... completely in denial. Ignores my perfectly logical argument as well, after he asked for one.

 

Ignoramus.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Sensuki

[Mor]

Nice to see you admit your deficiency.

 

http://eternity.gamepedia.com/Mode

 

Expert mode is going to disable tooltips. FACT. No discussion.

 

If you don't like obfuscation of stats, don't play Expert mode, because Expert mode IS fundamentally the obfuscation of stats.

Its like talking to a wall. What tooltip?! please reread the last two post, where I intentionally added for you a "what we agree on" section, tooltip help not showing in Expert mode being it. So there is no issues here, you are arguing with yourself, for the sake of argument.

 

I am discussing(or trying) the values in the combat log part, in particular the AC example(see OP, if you are not familiar with it) which I used in almost every post. I explained why it shouldn't be removed, if you have any counter argument other than troll like unrelated copy/paste hahah repetition, share it.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Mor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Its like talking to a wall.

You certainly seem to be beating your head against one.

 

If you want these values revealed, do not play in Expert mode.

 

If you need to be called an "Expert" to feel validated in playing PE, you are playing for the wrong reasons.

Edited November 17, 2013 by KaineParker

[Mor]

sorry hit post instead of edit. Please delete.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Mor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

error

This is likely the most sensible thing you've posted in this thread.