Atypical Crafting

[neo6874]

well, I suppose I'll side-track your side-tracking then ... 

[Lephys]

Is that anything like taking 2 right turns and ending up going back in the direction from whence you came?

[neo6874]

something like that, I think

[IRMA]

Imo, research has nothing to do with this kind of game. This is not strategy, it's game based on DUNGEONS and DRAGONS. Don't see any of it in researching.

 

On the other hand, being able to break SOME items into metals would certainly give another dimension to the looting! Nice one.

[neo6874]

I take it you've never played with a DM giving you a personal side-quest to find the Necronomicon, or other crazy "hey this sounds cool" type things then?

[IRMA]

I take it you've never played with a DM giving you a personal side-quest to find the Necronomicon, or other crazy "hey this sounds cool" type things then?

That is a search for something, not a research.

Research in game usually mean something like "where should I invest my resources", not "hey theres some ancient recipe that will allow you to create some crazy ****!" - thats a quest.

[neo6874]

partially -- you can quest for the Necronomicon ... but perhaps you need it for your research into making Lich's Bane (or whatever) ... it all ties together (but, honestly, in P&P a lot of the "research" is abstracted out (d20+[whatever] vs DC) because whatever you find is just told to you verbally, rather than something you can actually read/research).

[IRMA]

partially -- you can quest for the Necronomicon ... but perhaps you need it for your research into making Lich's Bane (or whatever) ... it all ties together (but, honestly, in P&P a lot of the "research" is abstracted out (d20+[whatever] vs DC) because whatever you find is just told to you verbally, rather than something you can actually read/research).

 

Still - you need it to finish the quest/task (...of creating Lich's Bane); it doesn't allow you to invest it into research of this or that, which would lead to finding a different research branch.

 

In Civilisation, you have research - you put your resources into the process of creation of new ways to do stuff. In the world where everybody uses stick, you can take one and invent club or staff, but you cannot INVENT Lich's Bane for which you found recipe in Necronomicon - If it is already in any book, its been already done and the process is mapped, thus it's not a research. What you described is simple quest.

 

I don't think any kind of research has place in game like this.

 

EDIT: what you talk about is finding new recipes, which authors already said will be implemented.

Edited December 28, 2013 by IRMA

[Lephys]

I think you're pegging the definition of "research" a little narrowly.

 

"diligent and systematic inquiry or investigation into a subject in order to discover or revise facts, theories, applications, etc."

 

In a game with crafting, why do you think you magically learn how to do something new/better with the same materials (iron, leather, etc.)? Because you investigate the use of your materials in order to discover new applications of those materials.

 

Plus, you've got a stronghold in this game. And since there's no crafting skill anymore, the crafting system COULD entail permanent hirelings at your stronghold, making the best use of their time to figure out new ways to do things, etc. "Hey, I've figured out how to make better-quality steel that's half the weight but just as durable/protective), etc.

 

Or, especially in the sense of magic and the like, there's already oodles of research saturating the lore. Animancy, cipher powers, etc. So, research could EASILY be a part of enchanting and the like.

 

So, I'm not really seeing how "research has absolutely no place in this game." That seems a bit arbitrarily extreme of a stance, to be honest.

 

Also, for what it's worth, you don't have to be coming up with something no one else has ever come up with for it to be research. Research is the process, not the novelty of the results.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Lephys

[jamoecw]

i can get behind not having civ style research at all in the game.  investigative type of researching would be fun though.  as far as researching how to make steel from iron or some such, that would be civ style research, though acquiring that knowledge from an existing source i think would be fine (as long as you can't make use of it in the middle of a dungeon crawl).

[Lephys]

Yes. It doesn't have to be Civ-style research. IRMA's not wrong in that that style of research, for example, doesn't have much room in the game. But, that hardly says that no possible form of the idea of research could fit in anywhere at all. And yeah, you definitely wouldn't want to get to do it on-the-spot. I mean, level-ups are already kind of an abstraction of that ("I spontaneously compressed all my experience with swordplay in the last few hours into the deduction of a new ability, perfected! 8D!"), hehe. But, still, even some games have you only able to level-up back at some kind of safehouse or something. Not that I think that's necessary. The abstraction's fine, as you're not going to really utilize a non-perfected new sword technique or something (I mean "perfected" lightly -- you're not going to go "Okay, I think I have an idea for a new technique, but I'm really not sure if I can execute it quickly enough, or if it's just going to let my foe run me through where he wouldn't otherwise have been able to, but I'm going to try it anyway! 8D!"). So, it kind of makes sense...

 

Annnnnywho. Every time I think of Research, I think of the Stronghold as the most likely candidate for its setting.

[IRMA]

Oh you mean creating new recipes.

Yea passive research could be fun

[Lephys]

Yeah. Like, focusing on the effects of what you're doing while you do it, and building upon your current knowledge of your crafting processes in order to figure out new ways to do things via practice and effort. It's kind of research because you could actually focus your attention on improving certain aspects of things, instead of just doing stuff and randomly figuring out new things via trial and error.

 

Also, as I said, more typical notes-and-paper research might fit into something like Enchanting, or Soul-magic-related stuff, etc. I really don't have enough info on the game's specific content and systems to be able to feasibly say what, exactly, should or should not have some form of research system/mechanic.