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@Lephys -- yeah, like I said, my example was just quick and bad.  I agree that needing to be a L10 weaponsmith "just" to make meteorite iron swords is a bit over the top, but was just the first "useless" thing I could come up with that "not everyone" would train for.

 

Not at all. I wasn't trying to imply anything of the sort. I've seen games like that in which those last points spent in Crafting basically just unlock some higher tier of items, and that's it. Then you run into that whole "Why do crafters get to get those, and we don't?!" thing, etc.... It's just all-around bland, methinks. It was a good example. :)

 

Regarding the way to handle the application of the skill to a crafting goal (such as high-level meteorite stuff or some other such high-tier material/quality weapons), that's a fine way of handling it. I will say, though, that I still prefer a system with multiple factors to one with only a single factor (regarding the product of success).

 

What I mean is, you've got a DC, and therefore a skill-check-style chance of success, but, if you succeed, you make the same sword as if you were a pro and succeeded. For that to matter, that meteorite sword has to be like... UBER compared to other equipment. So, at LvL 1, you have a chance to produce equipment of a quality that's essentially going to function as a cheat code as far as the game's design is concerned. It undermines the entire concept and balance of progression. OR, it's not really all that great, and we're back to "then why do I have to spend so many points in crafting to be able to make it?" Etc.

 

The other problem is, what happens when you fail? Do you just burn up all your materials, and have to go find more to attempt again? Or do you just try again (in which case the consequences for failure are really just delay)?

 

Anywho... Sorry, I'm getting a little lost on the specifics of the example, here, but, I'm just trying to touch all the possibilities of a system that would handle that, and how we'd go about setting up a system to handle a scenario like that.

 

Basically, I'd like for there to be SOME other factor there. Less emphasis on chance of complete success or complete failure, and more emphasis on the extent of the success or failure. Maybe you can make the sword, but it's brittle(if the game has durability in). Or, maybe the only thing using meteorite DEFINITELY does for the weapon is make it a lot more durable, so that you can still make a sword out of meteorite that's comparable to whatever you could make out of iron, but it would be quite durable no matter what. Either one, really. Or, as I mentioned before (even though it would be a bit abstract, in terms of how it really works), maybe instead of just a chance to succeed or a chance to fail, it takes more material to make an item with low crafting skill than it does to make the same item with greater crafting skill, and meteorite is limited? So, you could maybe make a pretty awesome meteorite sword at a lower crafting level, if you wanted, but it's going to be a trade-off: one better sword now and nothing later, or multiple awesome meteorite things later?

 

I realize these are simplistic, single-factor examples, and I'm not saying these are the only things that should be in place. I mean, maybe JUST the "one better thing now or lots of better stuff later" thing, by itself, isn't an adequate design for the whole system. It could be any combination of any similar factors, is what I'm getting at. Whatever's not too complex, and not too simplistic.

 

I just really prefer for the choice to really be more than just "try it while you're less lucky, or try it while you're more lucky?"And for the actual amount of points/time/effort/what-have-you that you've invested into crafting to actually directly play more of a part in the crafting result and/or options available to you. Not just tier-access options, either (as we've established), but, options that apply to things you could already do. Kind of like combat abilities. At level 10, you might gain some Talent that affects all your level 1/2 spells, etc.

 

You can apply the same method to almost anything with a skill check and/or difficulty progression. Take lockpicking. Maybe instead of JUST being able to pick higher DC locks, more points in lockpicking leads to things such as silent lockpicking on lower-level locks (the threshold raises as you put more points into the skill). Or, like I think Josh has mentioned way back when, specifically with lockpicking, an increased skill could result in the need for fewer lockpicks to pick a lock of a given difficulty. Instead of having to retry and fail (which is boring and lame), you could simply have it always succeed, but take varying amounts o time and/or varying amounts of lockpicks (representing failures, broken lockpicks, etc. all in the same action).

 

Anywho, it's hard to come up with a specific example that would fit P:E, without knowing all the factors that are going to be in place in the game's design. I mean, I know they're not using a crafting skill anymore (so probably no spent-points will be occurring to improve it), but, that doesn't mean you can't still have a crafting progression. There are just a lot of different ways of doing it.

 

@jamoecw:

 

I am sorry for being confusing. It is not my intention. It's possible my comparison of crafting to a glorified "shopping list" is unclear, and that that's part of the issue (as you pointed out how everything's going to amount to a list of possible craftables). The fact that it is a list is not my issue. When I say "shopping list," I am intending to compare the crafting process directly to the shopping process, in-game. You go to a merchant, there are things, you procure one. You go to a crafting station, there are often the same things, and you procure them, pretending that they were made instead of purchased. Functionally, they are almost identical, though. Then, often, most of the customization you get comes in after-crafting socketing and such; plugging gemstones and/or runes into pieces of equipment with slots. So that's not really crafting, because you don't need any crafting skill or crafting process to do so. It's like drinking a potion, or equipping armor to a character.

 

So, I'm not upset with the crafting process involving choosing things from a list. I'm specifically wanting it to go beyond choosing things from a list of goods to purchase at a merchant, in-game. Does that help?

 

Also, I realize I'm kind of putting feelers out all over the place and touching on a bunch of various possibilities and examples for crafting system designs. As I said above to Neo, my interest is more in brainstorming than in saying "see, this is how to fix the system," because I really don't know what the exact system will be in P:E, or what it even COULD be, as I don't have enough info to really focus the scope of my ideas and examples.

 

I'm simply trying to point out ways in which given crafting systems can be expanded upon in interesting ways. Not "I need a crafting system with all this, or nothing at all" or anything. I welcome criticisms of the ideas and examples, each in their own context, as they are not intended to all work together to produce some uber Voltron crafting system. However, some of them might work together. I figured, as verbose as I already am, it wouldn't be a very good idea to take the time to try to match up all the possible combinations of all the brainstorming I've had thus far in here, and evaluate each and every combination to try to present a complete crafting system that may or may not fit into any specific game.


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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It's been ages since I've played KOTOR (II) ... so yeah, I'm definitely glossing over things with the crafting system contained therein (or outright getting it wrong).  My point was that there is/was a different balance point in KOTOR than in most DnD-esque settings - such that you simply couldn't craft an exceptional balanced +4 lightsaber of evil smiting (+4 / +8 against evil; -4 penalty for use in offhand) and then take it to your friendly neighborhood Elminster and get +6d6 acid and +4d4 fire damage enchantments added.

pretty much just a content difference, craft a lightsabre with evil smiting crystal (+4 vs. evil), +4 crystal (+4), and balanced grips (-4 off hand penalty).  then go to HK-74 (companion that you have spent time doing his companion stuff) and get him to modify the power cell to add +4d4 fire to damage, then go OLD HAG (another companion that you have spent time with) and get her to get her to adjust the frequency to cause the blade to create toxic acid when it comes in contact with flesh and get a +4d4 acid damage modifier.  now all of this is done without needing a lightsabre with these properties anywhere in the code, it all comes from individual pieces, so the devs don't have to hand make 200 different yet nearly identical items just for a lobotomized crafting system (and much more work for a non lobotomized one).

 

now if completing the weapon itself was only a 1 in 4 chance of working, then it would take 1 to 4 days (average 2.5) to make, and if your companions also needed an equivalent amount of time then you'd have to live without those parts to help you while making your super weapon, maybe you take it easy, or maybe you use your backup weapon.

 

you aren't displaying a lifetime's worth of study and work, nor are you grinding in anyway.  so it isn't tedious, and it don't create a logic disconnect within lore (you aren't rivaling the gods or some super advanced civilization in craftsmanship), you don't waste precious skill points, and best of all it is fully dynamic, drawing on side quests to help you.

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@jamoecw:

 

I am sorry for being confusing. It is not my intention. It's possible my comparison of crafting to a glorified "shopping list" is unclear, and that that's part of the issue (as you pointed out how everything's going to amount to a list of possible craftables). The fact that it is a list is not my issue. When I say "shopping list," I am intending to compare the crafting process directly to the shopping process, in-game. You go to a merchant, there are things, you procure one. You go to a crafting station, there are often the same things, and you procure them, pretending that they were made instead of purchased. Functionally, they are almost identical, though. Then, often, most of the customization you get comes in after-crafting socketing and such; plugging gemstones and/or runes into pieces of equipment with slots. So that's not really crafting, because you don't need any crafting skill or crafting process to do so. It's like drinking a potion, or equipping armor to a character.

 

So, I'm not upset with the crafting process involving choosing things from a list. I'm specifically wanting it to go beyond choosing things from a list of goods to purchase at a merchant, in-game. Does that help?

 

Also, I realize I'm kind of putting feelers out all over the place and touching on a bunch of various possibilities and examples for crafting system designs. As I said above to Neo, my interest is more in brainstorming than in saying "see, this is how to fix the system," because I really don't know what the exact system will be in P:E, or what it even COULD be, as I don't have enough info to really focus the scope of my ideas and examples.

 

I'm simply trying to point out ways in which given crafting systems can be expanded upon in interesting ways. Not "I need a crafting system with all this, or nothing at all" or anything. I welcome criticisms of the ideas and examples, each in their own context, as they are not intended to all work together to produce some uber Voltron crafting system. However, some of them might work together. I figured, as verbose as I already am, it wouldn't be a very good idea to take the time to try to match up all the possible combinations of all the brainstorming I've had thus far in here, and evaluate each and every combination to try to present a complete crafting system that may or may not fit into any specific game.

 

that is why i used KotOR as an example, because you needed a prerequisite skill to assemble things into slots, based on what you were trying to put in there, otherwise, ya it isn't crafting, but equipping something (most systems that use slots forget this).

 

i don't think you mean that i mean that everything can be purchased or found as loot.  that nothing is special in that it takes something to get (hopefully in opposition of getting something else of equal value), possibly as a quest reward or something.

 

i also suggested that you could try to 'install' something you didn't know how to, and if you succeeded then you would then know how to do so in the future, or you could just be told to how.  that sort of thing could have synergy as well so something similar would allow you to somewhat know how to 'install' something, and thus better odds at guessing how to do it.

 

maybe i am missing what you are saying again, dunno.  right now it sounds like you missed something i had said, or i am miscommunicating or something.

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maybe i am missing what you are saying again, dunno.  right now it sounds like you missed something i had said, or i am miscommunicating or something.

 

I apologize. What happened was, I missed this post:

 

so you're are looking for something more dynamic than a glorified shopping list?  well in order to get dynamic stuff on a weapon you need to isolate the different effects so they can be applied individually.  then you come up with a method of applying them to the weapon, one way that is often used is to use slots and components, this way you have control over what goes in what and how much in order to keep some balance.  being able to deconstruct weapons to grab the components should also be feasible, though not all games that use slots have this ability, either stuff you find lacks special components, or you simple cannot deconstruct stuff, though it has been done before.  now we get into the issue of spending points on a non combat skill, which then has to balanced against combat skills, when it doesn't help you in other utility tasks, though some games do link the crafting skill to utilitarian skills that are non crafting specific.  the final issue is balancing what you find in the game with what you make, if what you make is inferior to what you find then there won't be a point to crafting things as you will always end up using what you find, but if you can make the best stuff in the game then ultimately the world is devoid of skillful smiths and enchanters that have spent their entire lives dedicated to the craft and science of making things.

 

now with age of decadence, in the demo you can make better stuff than you find, mainly because you find small items with good ore, then reconstruct them into a larger more useful item.  the main game will have these items, and artifacts that you can't make, so maybe there won't be any real use for crafting, after all why spend points that could be used for combat when you don't actually gain anything?  possibly there will be a blind spot in the artifacts and items that you can use your craft on, but that pretty much means that whatever skill is tied to that blind spot is also tied to crafting, and they come as a package deal (restricting the player, which is probably not what you want).

 

KotOR on the other hand had a system that allowed for as much diversity, did so while not breaking lore by having you craft super stuff out of basic materials that everyone else had access to, and tied the crafting to skills used in other areas of the game.  frankly the system itself is far better than anything that has been shown since or even suggested in this forum, all you need to do is tweak it a tad to fit the game.  as far as a research system why not just use a variation of RtK's, where you attempt to make something, should you fail you keep the components but lose the time you spent attempting the task.

So, I was just sort of re-brainstorming a bunch of stuff, but it seemed like I was responding directly to that post that I had missed. Which was not the case, and I didn't mean to ignore that post. I just missed it in catching up with my unread posts. Sorry about that.

 

I'm not at all familiar with KOTOR's system (never played it), but it sounds pretty awesome, based on what you've said thus far.

 

Just a few tidbits to contribute regarding those ideas:

 

- If the system has depth, and crafting allows unique opportunities (such as the ability to modify via socketed/installed items), I'm game. However, I am also interested in the possibility of making the crafting process, itself, fun. Not a requirement, just an interest.

 

- As per that Age of Decadence example... yes, that's the problem with "you can craft this list of stuff, but you can also find/procure functionally the same stuff and/or better stuff elsewhere." Which is why I've been crazily ranting about making sure crafting isn't just something you can do if you like pretending you made most stuff in the game instead of finding most stuff in the game. :) (Not that you've been saying otherwise... just clarifying my constant emphasis on that point.)

 

- Regarding a research system (which could easily manage crafting progression without having a point-based crafting skill), that could work. Although, I honestly don't see a need for failure in crafting research. It's a bit like lockpicking: You don't need to fail and retry it... you just need the process (duration, materials used, specific outcome, etc.) to dynamically represent variance. Maybe it's as simple as "spending" your mithril chainmail to research Mithril (for example) providing a lot more/faster progress in Mithril research than the "spending" of a mithril amulet or helmet or something. Thus, a significant decision is born: Do I make use of this good-quality chainmail and have to spend more numerous smaller/different items in order to uncover new techniques in Mithril-working? Or do I give up this chainmail (I may not find another suit of armor like this for an hour or so) in order to expand my abilities in Mithril-crafting?

 

That last one is one of the main reasons I brought up Thaumcraft. In it, the materials all had two uses: crafting production, and crafting progression. You'd find rare items that could either make something you could use right now OR allow you to discover some new things you can make or crafting technique you could employ. You did technically have fail chances in research, but you also had don't-actually-use-up-the-materials chances. So, that was kind of unnecessary, if you ask me. Almost the same exact results could've been achieved (averaging out the hits on both those chances) if the system had neither chance, with just material A contributing fewer points to research than material B.

 

And, on the note of chance, while I just seemed to speak ill of it, I don't think it's useless. I just think it's not best to allow it to determine such a drastic switch as success/failure. I think it's better to give it reign over a modifier range, whether it's from 0-20%, or from a detriment to a bonus (something like -10% to +10%). Little things that help make the product of your efforts unique are nice. Kind of like how that fireball animation and burn chance make you feel all "Yeah, I'm a Wizard!" as opposed to that awesome bleed-inducing sword flurry making you feel all "Yeah, I'm a Warrior!", even though both are basically contributing to the death of a foe. Getting to make a sword that's a little bit different from anything you can possibly find (even if it's not necessarily better than anything you can find of the same type, etc.) is a nice touch. Maybe that's just me. *shrug*


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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@Lephys (first wall 'o text this page) -- I always liked the D&D 3[.5]E rules with regards to materials, where you had three (four? don't have the DMG handy) possible outcomes for crafting:

 

  • pass DC -> get 1 day closer to making it
  • fail DC by 1-5  -> delay, minimal (if any) extra cost (e.g. "a new bunch of [herb] for teh potion - 1 GP")
  • fail DC 6-10 -> delay and destroyed all of "today's" parts (anything prior not affected)
  • (IDK if this was in there) fail DC >10 -> destroy all the things

I agree with the DC thing, and if we're gonna keep "Meteorite Iron" as our uber material for weapons, it would make sense then that a "L1 weaponsmith" can't use it, even at 18 STR (+4) -- not because he can't work it, but because unless he rolls a 20 [automatic succeed] he's failing by 2, and will keep incurring SOME additional costs (which, at low level would be prohibitively expensive -- let's say you're selling Meteorite Iron longswords for 10k GP, the iron costs 8K + 1500 GP for sundries (smith's tools, coal, the plans, whatever).  

Anyone with the proper skills (or just dumb luck) can make them for 9500 GP some times.  If they fail by a few points, they add 25-50 GP for more coal on the forge, and can try again.  If they fail by 6+ points, they're out 8k GP for the Meteorite Iron (IDK ... um, ruined the temper on it, and it's irrecoverable).

 

Now, obviously this is assuming a "PW" setting.  In a SP setting (or co-op campaign), you're just not gonna get the meteorite iron til Chapter 4 anyway, because you save the dwarf merchant that sells it from the bandit camp that's outside the temple to Bane at the end of Ch. 3.  (Sure, you could try saving him in C1, but your party of sub-15-HP-AC6+-THACO19+ characters will get steamrolled).  Really, this is just the difference in having a "campaign-less" setting of a PW, where the whole point of logging in today is "so, what story am I going to write today" and the campaign setting that is being built for us by Obsidian, and just following their story (where the whole point of playing is "save the world from [problem] that's been hinted at since the opening movie").  

 

 

 

@jamoecw -> OK well, it's been ages since KOTOR II, and as I recall it both HK-47 and Kreia were dark-side aligned.  I don't recall ever playing through their quests (or at least was always too "light side" for them to like me much).  In either event, your bonuses were rather limited (HK, Kreia, 1 or 2 others?) and you didn't have much else that could be added (sure a force power here or there, but nothing on the same scale as what is possible with D&D buffs).

 

Furthermore, as I recall it, you could only craft your first lightsaber (might have been KOTOR1 that did that), and everything else after that was just modifying an already built one (color of the blade, plus one or two other crystals, plus grip).  Furthermore, you could not obtain lightsabers (or parts generally) from merchants anywhere. The system was always "take 1 fully complete lightsaber/vibroblade/blaster/rifle, add upgrades, call it done".  

 

This is in no ways a bad thing, but it is not the same system that Lephys is trying to get at ... he's coming from the perspective of "why should I bother buying this vibroblade for 10 credits, when the parts only cost 9, and a table is over there" and you make exactly the same thing (i.e. no sockets/modifications to make yours better).

 

 

I think we can all agree on the following:

 

  • crafting and shopping should be different, although one shouldn't be obviously "better"
  • crafting can allow breaking things and using their parts to upgrade others (e.g. take balanced pommel off "shortsword" and apply to "shortsword +1")
  • some degree of diminishing returns on training ('PW' setting only),
  • some "chance" involved, rather than hard steps as you gain 'crafting xp'
  • 'slots' or something to limit enchantments/bonuses to something reasonable but don't call it that 

 

I think it would actually be easier to discuss this if we had a "psuedo crafting system" to work off of so that we don't mire ourselves in the minutia of trying to work out the kinks.  I'll put up a (terrible ;) ) spreadsheet later today and link it here.

Edited by neo6874
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don't get me wrong, none of the characters actually helped you do better at crafting, but they all had some personal stuff (the astromech was just a series of skill checks) that would result in a reward of some sort.  you could get multiple lightsabers in the first game, but they weren't anything special (aka, merchant fodder).  in fact the crafting system itself (not the method of getting stuff, and what not for crafting) is perhaps the best i've seen in a game, though like pretty much everything in the game there was not much content to it.  all other rpg games with crafting slots have used them as glorified equipment slots.  given that some of these guys have worked on KotOR i think that the crafting and companion growth will be alright, as long as they are able to put out the level of content that the IE games had.

 

ya, the google doc is basically like KotOR's system, except that you didn't forge stuff, so you find blade and what not already made out of the different materials.  also that the DCs were of skills that were non combat skills that were used for other things as well.

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Forging the (whatever) was implied -- 

 

E.g. making an Iron dagger was DC 5 (for "Short Sword") +0 (for "Iron") for a total DC of 5. Adamantine would be DC 8.  Granted these are more "placeholder" numbers and material attributes than anything.

 

 

I just threw the thing together, and didn't really flesh it out (so missing +DC for "harder" things, like 'keen' or 'masterwork', etc.) -- I'm just trying to give us a common point of reference so that we can avoid the wall o' text posts trying to explain some detail that is better served by "OK, take a look at the [sheet], Column D for what I mean here"

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It is a very nice point of reference, at the very least. There's good stuff in there.

 

Ideally, I'd like to come up with a basic system to use as a reference point for analysis and tweaking that would actually fit into P:E (i.e. no durability, etc.). But, I'm not really sure how beneficial that would be, and I don't know everything about P:E's system (and its restrictions) to know exactly what would fit and what wouldn't. So... :)

 

Hmm... I might look that thing over and see if I can't figure out a way to best adapt the durability-related stuff. There might be a good way to abstract the durability (into a "things don't actually degrade over time"). Not sure... *ponders*


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Really, it was just something I threw in there as another discussion topic because I keep slipping into thinking "PW setting".  If we pull it out (because it's not in PE) and just use "durability" as "how long will it keep a keen edge(*)", then that's fine too.

 

 

*I'm thinking like in the Witcher -- you could always fight, but you could take a whetstone to the blade and get a bonus for an hour or two.

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No worries. I wasn't trying to fault you for its being in there or anything. Like I said, a very good system for just being thrown together pretty quickly. I personally rather enjoy exploring implementations of durability, but I just figured that since P:E won't be using it, that we should "remove" it and explore alternatives. Or just to put it simply, to do all our system speculation for a system that doesn't use actual equipment degradation, per se.

 

The only concern with the "take a whetstone to your weapons for a bonus" thing is that it'll become one of those chore buffs. Basically, you'll just stock up on whetstones, and sharpen your swords every in-game couple of hours. It's like all the tedium of actual durability, without the depth of actual durability. *shrug*. But then, that can be said of any system that allows for one state that's better than another (whether it's 100/100 durability versus 30/100 durability, or keen edge "buff" versus no keen edge buff). 

 

*shrug*... I think maybe the trick with things like that is to make the feasibility range lower (non-keen edge is the norm against which the difficulty baseline is established, but having a keen edge still provides benefits when you DO have it), then make it a rarer thing (you can only sharpen your weapons back at town, or so often, etc.). So that it's basically not feasible to try and sharpen your weapons every single fight, etc. (Kind of like what P:E's doing with Health/Stamina and restricted resting, versus rest-wherever). Or, you could have something like "keen edge" provide some circumstantial benefit. You know, "extra damage against such-and-such armor type," or "extra bleed chance against enemies that bleed." Etc. So that it's not just universally "this sword does more damage, no matter what," and it's less of a "every second I spend with an unsharpened blade is damage I'm missing out on" situation.

 

Sorry... I know you were just using the Witcher as an example/reference. I just... analyze things. *beep boop blip*


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Totally agree where you're coming from Lephys.

 

I didn't run through the Witcher always checking on "did I remember to sharpen the blade". Most of the things died pretty quickly just so long as you used the right style for it. I would only use the "special things" when there was a big fight, or a chance of it getting out of hand -- e.g. the Drowned Dead (and minions) or Ghoul that you gave to the huntsman in the first town.

 

Let's say this then ...

 

"Maintenance" is performed when you rest (abstracted, you just need the item(s) in your inventory). For numbers, let's say you can use a whetstone daily (it's not destroyed), and it'll keep your sword in top-shape for a tenday under "normal" circumstances (e.g. traveling between Town A and Town B, camping every night, and the occasional group of bandits).  Adventuring circumstances might reduce the logevity by half (barring one of the "better" materials).  

 

Soon as you get to town, you can stop off at the blacksmith for a proper sharpening and the edge is restored.

 

All the above thoughs posted without the aid of caffeine, and are probably completely crazy .. I'll probbaly come back and edit later ;)

Edited by neo6874

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Haha, they're not crazy. :)

 

And yes, I agree that there's a very big "balance" (for lack of a better word) element to it. It's not as simple as "well, if there's a beneficial effect you COULD have, but it's in any way temporary, then it's just a chore because you're always going to want it as opposed to not-having it!"

 

Hmm... another thing that could be done would be to sort of merge the idea of durability with the idea of "buff" (in this case, item status) duration. You sharpen your sword, and instead of just de-sharpening on its own, the "buff" doesn't wear off until its used. Basically, you'd have a certain number of charges (to use common video game terms) of Keen Edge (like... 100?). That way, that's probably going to last you a while, so it's not "Omg, has it been 15 minutes? Better re-buff my stuff!", but, at the same time, it functions like a buff, so it's not REALLY durability, per se. It's just a different way of handling the temporaryness of the buff-effect duration.

 

Honestly, I prefer the charge-based thing for almost any temporary effect (almost), even if there's still reason for time to eventually cause it to wear off, as well (like a spell shield... that's probably going to fade after 8 hours or something, if you don't get hit 5 times, or however many times it'll protect you). But, I digress...

 

I think two things are key:

 

1) Don't make it a chore via frequency of necessity.

2) Don't make it so readily available that you feel like you're being lazy if you DON'T constantly maintain the effect.

 

So, there's got to be some kind of limitation in place for using it to be a significant decision. Either you only have so many whetstones (or uses, rather) that get consumed as they're used, or you can only use the whetstone so often (if it doesn't get used up when you use it, because it abstractly lasts for eternity). And/or, you can only stop and sharpen your sword when you rest or something (because you can't sit there and give it 100 strokes on each side of the blade with a whetsone while you're trekking around where hostile things lurk, etc.).

 

It's all a little abstracted, because video game mechanics. But, I think those things are key, however such a thing is handled.

 

PS. I REALLY like durability, and I'm admittedly trying to sort of work it into the game without actually putting it in the game (a la "Awwww, my sword died!").

 

Oooh! You could even use chance. Keen Edge on that blade? +10% chance of causing the Bleeding effect -- 100 charges. Maybe when it gets down to 80 charges, the chance drops to 8%. 60, 6%. 40, 4%, and so on, and so forth. But then, if you re-sharpen it at 40 charges, it goes back to 100, so you're only getting 60 charges out of that limited (in whatever way) whetstone use, however much it cost you. So, what's more important right now: that extra chance of bleed effects? Or not-spending that whetstone right now (so that you don't have to buy another one, or you have it for later, etc.)? That sort of decision.

 

Those numbers could be COMPLETELY changed. It was just an example of how chance could be used, AND how the diminishing nature of durability could be applied to things like sharpening (functionally implemented as item buffs rather than character buffs).

 

Annnnnywho. I could be crazy, and I have no excuse. :)


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I kinda like the charges thing, and where you're going with it ... though, I was thinking more along these lines as to how it would work...

 

So, you're at town, get your Iron sword re-sharpened after a month-long adventure ... 

 

Pay him 100GP to get it totally fixed.  Your sword has 100% "Keen bonus".  NOTE --> "Keen Bonus" just means whatever benefit you get from the bonus.  I like that  "10% chance of bleed", so we'll use that. 

 

Now, while you're in town, you heard of a caravan going to the town that you normally winter at; so you sign on as a mercenary guard, and will make it to town in a tenday.

 

End of Day 1, you didn't fight anyone, and you're just maintaining the sword -> 100% bonus

End of Day 2, you had a fight with some bandits ... you dropped the sword to 75% bonus. Once you sharpen it with a whetstone, it'll max out at 90% (as sharpening will only get you to ([previous_max] - 10)

Day 3 morning (i.e. after you rested on Day 2) -> you've restored the sword to 85% bonus (say lack of skill, or just a "bad roll" on the maintenance check. no bandits today.

Day 4 morning (i.e. after you rested on day 3) - you've restored the sword to 90%... 

 

(more days)

 

Day 10, morning.  You've had a few more fights, and have been dutifully maintaining your sword, it's down to 60 or 70% as the "base chance" now.  You should make it to the destination town by the end of today, and tomorrow you'll be able to stop by the blacksmith so he can fix all the dings and whatnot you weren't able to while you were on the road.

 

 

Now, different materials (steel, adamantine, etc) are stronger, and keep the edge longer ... so instead of it being 1 charge/attack ... maybe steel has a 50% chance of using a charge per attack, and adamantine only 25%.  Though the whetstone works the same way.  Obviously you only "lose" the max bonus if you're under the next step ... so a quick fight with a steel or adamantine sword might only drop you to 95%.  When you rest, you'll still care for the sword, but you won't drop to 90% until you fight another group of bandits.

Edited by neo6874

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Both Neo and Lephys have interesting suggestions for buffs/durability, as long as it it not like the witcher system with a set time limit regardless of what you do (which felt stupid) I'm all for it.

 

I always hate it when towns/cities are meaningless to an adventuring party, Inns are useless as u can camp for free, Blacksmith is pointless as u can fix ur own stuff, healers are a waste of time cuz u can do it yourself etc... For me dragging your half dead companions / damaged weaponry back to town is an exciting story in itself and really adds to the feel of a gameworld.

 

And yeah I'm all for crafting as long it stays within the realms of believability, preferably no Skyrim mechanics such as "I leveled up, now i can craft dragon bone armour using a normal forge and my 2 days of blacksmithing experience during which i made 500 iron daggers". If we are able to craft legendary kit either give us specific dudes around the world who can do it for a cost (Cromwell) or make it part of a story (three headed flail).

I would much rather have guerrilla survival crafting e.g. herbalisim, limited repair, perhaps leather armours / hides, bows, but seriously, no adventurer should be able to craft a full suit of plate armour during his lunchbreak..

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Yeah, I mean... I get why buffs and enchantments and effects and such were tied to time durations, from a purely gameplay standpoint. This is a game, and you have to make your stuff count. But, it's just pretty lame when you think about it. Even with magic stuff. Even though it might seem silly, because magic's fictitious, it can still be consistent. If you weave a fireball, you're essentially taking some form of fictitious energy, and converting it into a ball of fire, which you then hurl at something. If you miss your target, the fireball still exists. You already converted that energy, and it's already a fireball's worth of energy. It's going to hit SOMEthing. A tree... the ground, etc. Now, maybe you fail to weave the energy properly, like spending 2 hours forging a sword, then accidentally hitting it wrong with your hammer and breaking it in half (the sword) or something... so the spell fizzles. And yet, you're still taxed from all that effort, so you lose an abstract round of spell ammo (a spell-per-day, or what-have-you).

 

BUT, why, then, are you able to cast "burn crap when you strike it" magic on some sword (successfully cast it, mind you), only to have it ONLY remain there for so long? I mean, a duration EVENTUALLY? sure. It could work like batteries. You can use up all the electricity in a battery, leaving it with none. OR, you can just wait months or years and it'll slowly dissipate on its own. Nothing perfectly stores that energy, so why should magic? Anywho... it doesn't have to be years, like a battery. I just meant that the function seems like it'd be similar to a battery. After all... fictitious or non-fictitious, we're dealing with stored energy here. Energy to make fire on contact, or energy to electrically power things on (proper) contact. *shrug*

 

So, yeah, I've just always thought "why should you swinging a sword and hitting NOTHING contribute in any significant way to the diminishment of your sword's finite burn-things enchantment?", and felt that charges would work better. They're still temporary (you can only get so many hits before they're gone), and they'll still dissipate after many hours (or maybe the next time you sleep, etc.). You can still balance things just as easily. Got a flaming sword for 15 seconds before? Well, how many times could you feasibly strike something in 15 seconds? 7? Okay, maybe give it 7 charges. Don't expect someone to actually hit 7 times in 15 seconds? Give it fewer charges. Etc...

 

And yes, Jobby, I think towns and cities should be much more meaningful from a resource standpoint, as well. Neo, regarding your last response, that's the only thing I would point out/suggest is an especial attention to making sure re-applying the affect is not something that's ultra-readily available. The "you can only sharpen it back to 90%" thing is a good idea, in function. But, as far as number tweaking, I just mean that to get further, we'd need to make sure that half the range isn't pointless because you can just keep sharpening your sword at 70% every time. It then becomes that +9% bleed chance that you're an idiot not to keep on your sword at all times. Oh no, it dropped down to 8%! SHARPEN! Ya know? :)

 

I think part of that comes from "Hey, we don't actually have the facilities out here to properly/fully maintain this equipment." With that in mind, and with no actual durability planned for the game now, the only thing I can really think of is just tying these bonuses to towns/the stronghold, etc. This way, you can rest many times throughout a single trek through some wilderness area, but you can't actually regain some pristine equipment condition bonus while leisurely resting in the woods. Thus, you not only have to make the journey to a town or facility where you can do this, but you ALSO must pay for the affect. Or, if you do it yourself, you must pay for the resources necessary to apply it.

 

Regarding whetstone sharpening of your sword, I would think the whole keeping it from being dull and/or rusty aspect would be a given. Just something that your characters are understood to do whenever they get to sit down for a bit. To make it actually not maintenance, I think it would need to be some kind of bonus, even if that abstracts it a bit. What kind of sharpening can a smith/craftsman do that you can't do with a whetstone and some TLC? I dunno. Maybe sharpening, and "keen edge," specifically, is not a good effect to go with in a durability-less system. Maybe it needs to be (for lack of a better top-of-my-head example) magical oils? *Shrug* But, again, it would need to diminish with use to make it the most strategic decision, because diminishing with time just leads to the most frequent trips back to town being ALWAYS the best choice (even though that's not a fun or strategically necessary thing to do, without the arbitrary wearing off of that oil that your swords just sitting there soaking in your scabbard).

 

Anywho... I should stop here for the moment, or I'm just going to ramble forever. I'm trying to think of too many aspects at once, methinks, and it's not leading to a very efficient post, heh. ME?! INEFFICIENT?! Nooooo... ^_^


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I feel like a **** for just rambling about factors to consider, and not actually providing useful suggestions on how to do so, 8P. My brain was not in-the-zone while I was typing that. Sorry about that. I'm going to think on it, too, and see if I can't come up with a useful contribution.


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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no, it was good -- I picked up on one specific point where it looked like you misunderstood where I was going with the whetstone/sharpening ... but then realized I was reading what you said backwards :) (also, WTF obsidian not letting me edit my own posts now ... grrr)

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Even though it might seem silly, because magic's fictitious, it can still be consistent. If you weave a fireball, you're essentially taking some form of fictitious energy, and converting it into a ball of fire, which you then hurl at something. If you miss your target, the fireball still exists... It's going to hit SOMEthing. A tree... the ground, etc. Now, maybe you fail to weave the energy properly ... so the spell fizzles. And yet, you're still taxed from all that effort, so you lose an abstract round of spell ammo (a spell-per-day, or what-have-you).

 

 

BUT, why, then, are you able to cast "burn crap when you strike it" magic on some sword (successfully cast it, mind you), only to have it ONLY remain there for so long? I mean, a duration EVENTUALLY? sure. It could work like batteries. You can use up all the electricity in a battery, leaving it with none. OR, you can just wait months or years and it'll slowly dissipate on its own. Nothing perfectly stores that energy, so why should magic? Anywho... it doesn't have to be years, like a battery. I just meant that the function seems like it'd be similar to a battery. After all... fictitious or non-fictitious, we're dealing with stored energy here. Energy to make fire on contact, or energy to electrically power things on (proper) contact. *shrug*

I think it's because of how fast the reaction is happening. For numbers, let's say a fireball does 10d6 damage, and a flame sword spell does +1d6 and lasts for 10 rounds. Overall, you (the wizard) have used the same amount of "magic energy" but have curtailed "how fast" it's actually going to "burn" once the spell is completed. For D&D et. al. using "rounds" makes sense (rather than charges) because you always know how long your spell will last (1 minute / 10 rounds). Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a record of a finite burn time buff that can be applied to a sword whenever. You can craft a weapon with the "Flaming" property (it's permanent between the command word for "on" and "off" being said) for a cost of "+1 bonus".

 

 

Well, how many times could you feasibly strike something in 15 seconds?

"Standard" Fighter can do 2 (+1), 4 (L6 -- +6/+1), 6(L11 -- +11/+6/+1), or 8 (L16 -- +16/+11/+6/+1), assuming attack rolls grant a hit. Note, this is using normal D&D rules of "1 round is approx. 6 sec". Epic levels (21+) continue this progression.

 

...I just mean that to get further, we'd need to make sure that half the range isn't pointless because you can just keep sharpening your sword at 70% every time. It then becomes that +9% bleed chance that you're an idiot not to keep on your sword at all times. Oh no, it dropped down to 8%! SHARPEN! Ya know? :)

Remember, my example was a 10 day trip between two towns on a regularly patrolled road (e.g. Suzail to Arabel), so you won't have much in the way of mooks to kill. If you're out on an actual adventure for a month ... well, that's different. Now, granted some of this is thought out on a PnP scale, rather than a cRPG scale -- for example, in BG1 it was 1 day (approx) from Beregost to Nashkel ... it's ~120 miles, and walking that distance should take 5-10 days (3(.5)E rules, based on your slowest party member) when traveling 8h/day. In general, it seems cRPG take a much shorter amount of time than it "should" -- but that might've been a limitation of the coding when BG1 was written (IIRC, IWD you would get "travel took a week" notes).

 

I think part of that comes from "Hey, we don't actually have the facilities out here to properly/fully maintain this equipment." With that in mind, and with no actual durability planned for the game now, the only thing I can really think of is just tying these bonuses to towns/the stronghold, etc. This way, you can rest many times throughout a single trek through some wilderness area, but you can't actually regain some pristine equipment condition bonus while leisurely resting in the woods. Thus, you not only have to make the journey to a town or facility where you can do this, but you ALSO must pay for the affect. Or, if you do it yourself, you must pay for the resources necessary to apply it.

 

Regarding whetstone sharpening of your sword, I would think the whole keeping it from being dull and/or rusty aspect would be a given. Just something that your characters are understood to do whenever they get to sit down for a bit. To make it actually not maintenance, I think it would need to be some kind of bonus, even if that abstracts it a bit. What kind of sharpening can a smith/craftsman do that you can't do with a whetstone and some TLC? I dunno. Maybe sharpening, and "keen edge," specifically, is not a good effect to go with in a durability-less system. Maybe it needs to be (for lack of a better top-of-my-head example) magical oils? *Shrug* But, again, it would need to diminish with use to make it the most strategic decision, because diminishing with time just leads to the most frequent trips back to town being ALWAYS the best choice (even though that's not a fun or strategically necessary thing to do, without the arbitrary wearing off of that oil that your swords just sitting there soaking in your scabbard).

I've never sharpened a sword before, but I have a few camping knives that require sharpening every so often (would probably need more if I used them more than one or two weekends/year). Sharpening them "in the field" is harder because

  • The table is almost never level
  • I don't have my "nice" stones (1x2x8), but rather "travel sized" ones (0.5x1x4, synthetic "stones")
Taking this to a ©RPG, maybe it means that you only have a 1x2x6 stone (or whatever size), but even being experienced, it's still a bit unwieldy to keep things at "100%" ... which is why you take it to the weaponsmith to get sharpened -- he's got a shop, and doesn't need to lug around his 100 pound sharpening bench (interchange-able sharpening wheels, and adjustable fences to always guarantee the finest edge in Cormyr).

 

 

That said, I think you've missed where I was going with the "keen edge durability"

 

An "Iron Sword" would have 100 KeenCharges, and use 1 charge/atk (because even if you miss, they're parrying or it's hitting their shield/armor). "Steel" is exactly the same, but has 50% chance of not using a charge (d% 51-00)."Adamantine" has only a 25% chance of using a charge (d% 75-00). Every night, during "rest", you can add up to 1d8+DEX charges back, due to maintaining the weapon, bound by tens -- so if you have a sword with 76 charges, and (1d8+DEX) = 10, you will end up with 80 charges (80% "Keen bonus", so + 8) -- if you drop to 69 charges or below tomorrow, then you can top it up to 70.

 

100 -> 91 = 100%

90 -> 81 = 90%

80 -> 71 = 80%

10 - 1 = 10%

0 = 0 (duh)

 

When you get to a town/city with a weaponsmith, they can re-edge your sword for 100GP-(charge % remaining) ... so if you had a 90% sword, it'd cost you 10 GP ... if you had 10%, it'd cost you 90GP. <-- totally made up and random because I can't think of anything better

Edited by neo6874
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I think it's because of how fast the reaction is happening. For numbers, let's say a fireball does 10d6 damage, and a flame sword spell does +1d6 and lasts for 10 rounds. Overall, you (the wizard) have used the same amount of "magic energy" but have curtailed "how fast" it's actually going to "burn" once the spell is completed. For D&D et. al. using "rounds" makes sense (rather than charges) because you always know how long your spell will last (1 minute / 10 rounds). Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a record of a finite burn time buff that can be applied to a sword whenever. You can craft a weapon with the "Flaming" property (it's permanent between the command word for "on" and "off" being said) for a cost of "+1 bonus".

And that makes sense, in a way. But, at the same time, something like Armor lasts a set amount of time, no matter what. Doesn't matter if you get hit with a nuke, or a spitball. The armor spell just keeps on armoring. Whereas, in P:E's design, for example, the Wizard's Arcane Veil is a potent shield that actually reacts to incoming force. It's obviously using some form of energy to maintain its ability to block incoming energy from fatally reaching your Wizard and transferring into your Wizards vitals. But, hit it with enough, in a focused enough fashion (say, a bullet from a gun), and it punctures.

 

How does this all tie into crafting and weapon enhancements? Well, the comparison remains: You sharpen a sword, it doesn't just start losing sharpness over time. It loses sharpness upon use. The sharpness gets worn. So, I'm not saying no magical enchantments on equipment should ever be time-based. But, why couldn't it be charge-based, and "burn" when it's used, instead of just constantly? Why do we go from "3 minutes of flame damage on this sword" to a crafting enchantment that's "eternal flame damage on this sword." Does the sword just constantly emit flames, 24/7? So, you can't even scabbard it, 'cause it'll just melt your scabbard? You can't set it down, 'cause it'll set fire to the tavern? :)

 

That's all I'm getting at there. It makes sense that that's possible. But, more importantly, it works better for the game. Almost all the biggest complaints about buffs and temporary effects are from the upkeep, as caused by the duration. You want to spend that spell, then get your bang for your buck. It's sheer frustration to cast "Flame Sword" on your Warrior's blade, then have him miss 9 out of 10 swings for the duration of that spell.

 

Annnywho, I'm slipping again, into rambling. I've basically just wondered why games don't tend to use charge-based, diminishing-upon-use limitations more often. Not why they don't just replace ALL duration-based limitations with charge-based ones.

 

That said, I think you've missed where I was going with the "keen edge durability"

 

An "Iron Sword" would have 100 KeenCharges, and use 1 charge/atk (because even if you miss, they're parrying or it's hitting their shield/armor). "Steel" is exactly the same, but has 50% chance of not using a charge (d% 51-00)."Adamantine" has only a 25% chance of using a charge (d% 75-00). Every night, during "rest", you can add up to 1d8+DEX charges back, due to maintaining the weapon, bound by tens -- so if you have a sword with 76 charges, and (1d8+DEX) = 10, you will end up with 80 charges (80% "Keen bonus", so + 8) -- if you drop to 69 charges or below tomorrow, then you can top it up to 70.

 

100 -> 91 = 100%

90 -> 81 = 90%

80 -> 71 = 80%

10 - 1 = 10%

0 = 0 (duh)

 

When you get to a town/city with a weaponsmith, they can re-edge your sword for 100GP-(charge % remaining) ... so if you had a 90% sword, it'd cost you 10 GP ... if you had 10%, it'd cost you 90GP. <-- totally made up and random because I can't think of anything better

I don't think I've misunderstood. I actually like that setup, a lot. No, what I was trying to say is that that functionally is durability. If you don't maintain your sword, you'll lose your keen edge (basically suffer a penalty). I personally like durability (though I do look for ways to make it as interesting as possible), but since they've already dropped it from the design, I'm just trying to put more consideration into systems that don't mimic durability, but perhaps still provide some of the perks of durability representation.

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Well, for D&D the thing is that "Armor" doesn't actually impart any "protection" other than making you harder to hit, and magical armor (Mage Armor, Shield, etc.) just follows that grouping of rules more or less (certain things are overruled though, like spell failure, and other "special" things, like being able to hide behind a tower shield for full cover)

 

Spells that do soak up damage -- e.g. "Stoneskin" (DR 10/Adamantine) have both a time limit (10 minutes / level) and a HP limit (10 HP / level; max 150).

 

 

For Woundrous Items that we create ... well, there's a lot of glossing over the actual process (because IDK why ... probably something having to do with ).  However, I just finished reading a book that was recommended here [i think, or maybe just in amazon reviews] where someone created a Finder's Stone by encasing a piece of para-elemental ice in the center of the rock so as to allow it to run spells indefinitely ('Tongues' was the one the character used).  

 

 

Anyway, I think they use time-based (in pen and paper) because it's easier for everyone.

 

Wizard -> I'm casting Stoneskin on (party member/self)

DM -> OK, you're L7 right?

Wiz -> no, L8 now; levelled end of last session :)

DM -> OK, so you're good for 80 minutes, or 80 HP  ... you're not in combat, no one's near enough to get an Atk of Opportunity ... it goes off without a hitch ... (jots down 'game time' and 'hp soaked' on his notepads)

(Time)

DM -> and with Grugg's mighty blow (sidebar -> WTF you lucky bastard getting nat 20 on a crit check), the High Priest of Bane is no more. His demise also releases magic keeping the few remaining skeletons animated, and drops the wards that had Taklyn and Maribel frozen in place. To Wiz I have 50 rounds counted since you cast the spell - 10 from that first fight at the gatehouse, 15 from the courtyard reinforcements ... and 25 as you guys slogged through the undead in the mansion ... in addition, you guys spent 5 minutes to study the tapestries looking for the secret passage to the basements, and 20 minutes to open the locks on the cells.  You've still got 40 minutes remaining on the stoneskin spell ... 

Wiz -> OK ... 

(rest of party) -> well, we've looted the stuff and thrown it into our packs ... and the Holy Symbol for the Mayor ... and lets GTFO before anyone else shows up

DM -> sounds like a plan guys.  You make it outside no problem, even with the Mayor's daughter cowering in fear and slowing you all down.  It's just about nightfall, you've got enough light that you should be able to make it to town about a mile away, or at least the inn up the road (half mile in the wrong direction)... (OOG -- aaand it's getting late, do you guys want to try getting back to town tonight, or do you wanna pick up here next week?)

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No no, I get it. And, I mean, it works. I'm not trying to say it's stupid. I just... especially with the round-based ones, I don't see the need to limit something to 1 round, time-wise, when you can only perform one attack in a round, anyway. It seems like, if I can imbue you with perfect accuracy for 10 seconds, then I can probably ALSO imbue you with perfect accuracy for only one attack. Why does it matter (in theoretical function of the spell AND in game mechanics/reasoning) that I time the spell to exactly the round before you need to make the attack? What if you don't attack for the next 3 rounds? If you attack the 4th round, you could still get a +20 to your attack roll, then the spell would be used up.

 

I just don't see any reason for not-doing stuff like that, than "we just didn't want to do it that way." Maybe there is one, though.

 

Does that make any sense? I dunno about anyone else, but, I personally would rather have "your next attack, within some reasonable amount of time (like... an hour or something?) gets +20 to it" instead of "OMG, you get +20 to your attack roll IF you manage to do it in time! 10 seconds on the clock... GO!" I mean, why not make it an instant spell/prepared action, and have the person cast it the moment someone's attacking? At least then it's never "Oh no, you tripped and fell, and by the time you stood back up, the spell was no longer there in waiting to actually produce an effect when you attacked!"

 

Basically, the longer-duration stuff isn't so bad. But then, like you said, it even has "charge" counters (like the 80HP threshold). But the shorter stuff is pretty bad. Especially in a cRPG, where 30 minutes passes abstractly-yet-constantly. In NWN2, for example, I'd cast stuff that lasted 4 hours, and have it wear off after I progressed about 300 feet through a swamp. I realize that's specific to the passage of time in a given game's design, but... still.

 

Anywho... back to crafting... I think it definitely makes a lot more sense for things to diminish with use, rather than with time (unless it's a lonnnnng amount of time). Physical effects, that is. Even abstracted ones.

Edited by Lephys
  • Like 1

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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With a cursory glance thru the PHB, the only "one round" spells are ones that negatively impact someone (e.g. "Daze" makes you lose your next action), and short term buffs will last 1 minute or until the other condition is met (e.g. "guidance" is +1 to your next roll for a skill check/saving throw/attack roll.)

 

and as for crafting -- I have no idea where we are anymore with it, hehehe

Edited by neo6874

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and as for crafting -- I have no idea where we are anymore with it, hehehe

 

:)

 

Honestly? We might just need to wait for a cursory rundown of the intended design of the crafting system in PoE, then go from there with suggestions/tweaks. Otherwise, I'm going to keep perpetuating our getting sidetracked by the most minute of minutia and crafting system possibilities, forever. 8P

 

*shrug*


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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