Almost a quarter of men 'admit to rape in parts of Asia'

[alanschu]

 

 

Why are you? Why is anyone convinced of anything?

 

Because a series of observations (whether made by me or someone else) have, at this current time, led me to believe that.

 

 

 

 

For some, capital punishment might be a universal law as strong a Newtons

 

And I will ask them why, and attempt to challenge them on it.

 

 

 

 

Maybe it's not the refutations that bother me, bur rather the insistance that I *MUST* defend it to the last breath or that I * MUST* concede? Ever tough of that possibility?

 

Ever think that the assumption that you must defend it to your last breath is one that you've concocted in your own head.  You get pissy at people because CLEARLY they make too many assumptions and jump to conclusions.  Why are you exempt?

 

I ask why people think a certain way because it makes a conversation actually interesting.  If you wish to declare a position, and then leave it at that, you leave the conversation with, well, rather little to go on.  It's uninteresting.  I prefer to have interesting conversations.  I like to personally be challenged on my own beliefs, because I am a skeptic and recognize that my beliefs may in fact be incorrect.

 

Stating that you have an opinion, but no interest in actually discussing said opinion, effectively comes across as a waste of time.  At least with this tangent, you're engaging in an actual discussion by asking me questions, and making me think.  Although a bit of it is a bit too faux philosophical (i.e. why is anything convinced of anything?).

[TrashMan]

 

Because a series of observations (whether made by me or someone else) have, at this current time, led me to believe that.

 

Then you got your answer.

 

It's not like a lifteime of experiences of observations can be explained easily.

 

But I do admitt I worded by forst post incorrectly. I said earieler that simplistic explanations sound wrong to me. So saying "rape is about power" is simplistic...well, it is. But to a point so is "rape is about sex". It's about both...and more.

 

 

 

And I will ask them why, and attempt to challenge them on it.

 

Good luck trying to prove morality

[BruceVC]

 

Because a series of observations (whether made by me or someone else) have, at this current time, led me to believe that.

 

Then you got your answer.

 

It's not like a lifteime of experiences of observations can be explained easily.

 

But I do admitt I worded by forst post incorrectly. I said earieler that simplistic explanations sound wrong to me. So saying "rape is about power" is simplistic...well, it is. But to a point so is "rape is about sex". It's about both...and more.

 

 

 

And I will ask them why, and attempt to challenge them on it.

 

Good luck trying to prove morality

 

 

Once again Trashman I don't think you actually understand the statement " rape is about power and not about sex"

 

There is nothing simplistic about that comment and if you had read the links I made or any of the studies that are easy to reference you would get it.

 

But since this thread and your comments is more for your entertainment you should just carry not understanding something that most do understand. Good luck

[Chairchucker]

Surely some rapes are about sex though. I mean, surely not every rapist has precisely the same motivation for committing their crime, do they?

[BruceVC]

Surely some rapes are about sex though. I mean, surely not every rapist has precisely the same motivation for committing their crime, do they?

 

Yes a small percentage of rapes would be just about the sex. You should read the links I provided earlier in this thread, there are several reasons for rape and almost all of them are not about sex but around the power over women.

[Chairchucker]

Had a look, some of them have some pretty rough logic. Basically one says, "different rapists have different motives, some of these motives are things like power and anger, thus clearly rape is never about sex, QED." Terrible logic. Oh and since one uses Wikipedia as a source, Wikipedia also says that while there are academics who hold to that view, (anger and power and nothing else ever) there are also academics who said hey actually I think a lot of the times people have sex with people against their will because they want to have sex and they couldn't find someone who was actually keen. Basically all of the quotes saying it's all about power seem to point back to one guy, Groth, who wrote a book once and said there were only three motivations and none of them were sex. Really now?

 

None of the articles offer any data to support this, they basically just contain something along the lines of "AS WE ALL KNOW, RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX."

[BruceVC]

Had a look, some of them have some pretty rough logic. Basically one says, "different rapists have different motives, some of these motives are things like power and anger, thus clearly rape is never about sex, QED." Terrible logic. Oh and since one uses Wikipedia as a source, Wikipedia also says that while there are academics who hold to that view, (anger and power and nothing else ever) there are also academics who said hey actually I think a lot of the times people have sex with people against their will because they want to have sex and they couldn't find someone who was actually keen. Basically all of the quotes saying it's all about power seem to point back to one guy, Groth, who wrote a book once and said there were only three motivations and none of them were sex. Really now?

 

None of the articles offer any data to support this, they basically just contain something along the lines of "AS WE ALL KNOW, RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX."

 

Please provide links or studies that show  how rape is not about power but sex and I'll discuss this with you. It should be a good debate

[Chairchucker]

"Aggression and Coercive Actions: A Social-Interactionist Perspective" by Richard Felson. Regrettably it is a book rather than something I can link you to online, much like the oft-referenced "Men Who Rape" by Nicholas Groth, which seems to be the main reference used by those that claim it is not about sex.

 

EDIT: They're both kind of old. '79 for Groth, '94 for Felson. Maybe someone should do a newer study instead of just quoting Groth again. Who knows, maybe if they include a lot of activity that wouldn't necessarily have been considered rape by many back in '79, - much like someone speculated regarding the people polled in the surveys in the OP - they'd find a wider range of motivations.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Chairchucker

[BruceVC]

"Aggression and Coercive Actions: A Social-Interactionist Perspective" by Richard Felson. Regrettably it is a book rather than something I can link you to online, much like the oft-referenced "Men Who Rape" by Nicholas Groth, which seems to be the main reference used by those that claim it is not about sex.

 

EDIT: They're both kind of old. '79 for Groth, '94 for Felson. Maybe someone should do a newer study instead of just quoting Groth again. Who knows, maybe if they include a lot of activity that wouldn't necessarily have been considered rape by many back in '79, - much like someone speculated regarding the people polled in the surveys in the OP - they'd find a wider range of motivations.

 

Okay I found some more  links supporting my view, the second link you should find interesting. There are many more I can post but I think I've made my point

 

http://voices.yahoo.com/why-men-rape-psychological-versus-sociological-3179564.html

 

http://udayms.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/why-men-rape/

 

http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/articles/rapefeat.html

[Chairchucker]

That second link seems to be doing the same cherry picking thing of "Some men don't ejaculate during rape." (An interesting point to bother raising given that consensual sex doesn't necessarily result in ejaculation.) "In one one of the interviews by the rapists." They are seizing on a small percentage of examples and saying "Therefore, this is the rule."

 

Oh also, this quote: "A rapist uses actual force or violence or the threat of it to take control over another human being" is a generalisation that we now recognise not to be necessarily true. 

 

You haven't really made your point as such, you've just found links and said "here's some people who also agree with my view." They all seem to be taking the path of "Some interviewed rapists said this, therefore that's the case for every rapist ever." (Although strictly speaking that first link doesn't really support your point, read it again. She's basically saying "Different people have different motivations.") Third link, from what I could be bothered reading before I go to bed, didn't seem to support your point that strongly either.

[BruceVC]

That second link seems to be doing the same cherry picking thing of "Some men don't ejaculate during rape." (An interesting point to bother raising given that consensual sex doesn't necessarily result in ejaculation.) "In one one of the interviews by the rapists." They are seizing on a small percentage of examples and saying "Therefore, this is the rule."

 

Oh also, this quote: "A rapist uses actual force or violence or the threat of it to take control over another human being" is a generalisation that we now recognise not to be necessarily true. 

 

You haven't really made your point as such, you've just found links and said "here's some people who also agree with my view." They all seem to be taking the path of "Some interviewed rapists said this, therefore that's the case for every rapist ever." (Although strictly speaking that first link doesn't really support your point, read it again. She's basically saying "Different people have different motivations.") Third link, from what I could be bothered reading before I go to bed, didn't seem to support your point that strongly either.

 

I don't think you read the articles properly, I'll quote from the first one and last paragraph. I can't see how this can be made any clearer that the main reason for rape is not about the actual sex

 

"I believe that both the psychological and sociological perspectives regarding rape can be proven correct depending upon the individual rapist. I believe that some rapists truly do have psychological problems while other rapists feel a need to dominate women or feel sexually frustrated as a result of rejection. Regardless of the cause of rape, I don't think that there is any excuse for invading another person's body and individual space without proper consent. As far as most rape cases are concerned, I believe that both sociological explanations of sexual permissiveness and gender inequality provide the best explanation equally."

[TrashMan]

I did read your links.

And I remain 100% unconvinced.

 

It's simplistic, generalizing and jumping to conclusions, starting from specific assumtions.

This is partially why I never was a big fan of psychology.

Of course rape is abotu Sex. If it's about power, there are a million other ways to express that power.

 

Blackmail someone. Kidnap him and tie him up. Torture him. Kidnap a loved one. Be in a position of power (boss at work for example)

All of those are different instances of holding power over someone. There is need for sex to relish in power.

 

 

"Frustration our of fear of rejection" is a bunch of hogwash from where I'm standing. Hell, I should be a rapist extraordinare by that logic.

[BruceVC]

ii

 

Blackmail someone. Kidnap him and tie him up. Torture him. Kidnap a loved one. Be in a position of power (boss at work for example)

All of those are different instances of holding power over someone. There is need for sex to relish in power.

 

 

"Frustration our of fear of rejection" is a bunch of hogwash from where I'm standing. Hell, I should be a rapist extraordinare by that logic.

 

Yes those are all ways that people exert power over someone but those don't apply to power over women in the context of this discussion and why men rape women.

Edited September 19, 2013 by BruceVC

[Orogun01]

 

ii

 

Blackmail someone. Kidnap him and tie him up. Torture him. Kidnap a loved one. Be in a position of power (boss at work for example)

All of those are different instances of holding power over someone. There is need for sex to relish in power.

 

 

"Frustration our of fear of rejection" is a bunch of hogwash from where I'm standing. Hell, I should be a rapist extraordinare by that logic.

 

Yes those are all ways that people exert power over someone but those don't apply to power over women in the context of this discussion and why men rape women.

 

I'm having a radical thought here, what if men rape women cause they're horny?

[alanschu]

 

 

Then you got your answer.

 

It's not like a lifteime of experiences of observations can be explained easily.

 

But I do admitt I worded by forst post incorrectly. I said earieler that simplistic explanations sound wrong to me. So saying "rape is about power" is simplistic...well, it is. But to a point so is "rape is about sex". It's about both...and more.

 

I disagree.  If you think it cannot be explained easily, perhaps you haven't given it as much thought and consideration?  Ask yourself "Why is this difficult to explain?"  Does that mean that it will ALWAYS be difficult to explain?

 

The joy of attempting to make that explanation is when I have the epiphany that I was actually misunderstanding it on some level.

 

 

 

 

Good luck trying to prove morality

 

Who said anything about proving anything to anyone?  I said challenge them on it, because I find the discussions interesting and capable of facilitating my own growth as a person.

[alanschu]

 

 

I'm having a radical thought here, what if men rape women cause they're horny?

 

A degree of sexual motivation is probably necessary.  Though there are other ways to satisfy one's arousal.  Are there any other compounding factors?

[BruceVC]

 

 

ii

 

Blackmail someone. Kidnap him and tie him up. Torture him. Kidnap a loved one. Be in a position of power (boss at work for example)

All of those are different instances of holding power over someone. There is need for sex to relish in power.

 

 

"Frustration our of fear of rejection" is a bunch of hogwash from where I'm standing. Hell, I should be a rapist extraordinare by that logic.

 

Yes those are all ways that people exert power over someone but those don't apply to power over women in the context of this discussion and why men rape women.

 

I'm having a radical thought here, what if men rape women cause they're horny?

 

 

 

Okay that's it, I can't explain this anymore. If you guys think that rape is just about sex or the fact that guys are amorous that's fine, I can't keep making the same point with links over and over again

 

I'm moving onto other threads, byyyyyyyyyye

[Walsingham]

Christ on a 50 year sentence...

[kgambit]

 

 

 

 

Okay that's it, I can't explain this anymore. If you guys think that rape is just about sex or the fact that guys are amorous that's fine, I can't keep making the same point with links over and over again

 

I'm moving onto other threads, byyyyyyyyyye

 

 

I thought the following paper raised some interesting points about viewing rape as a form of bias-motivated hate crime.  Much like wife beating but the expression of the power domination is physical in nature as opposed to sexual in the case of rape.  It's about establishing Power or domination with sex as the instrument of exerting that power.  Sexual release is not the intended goal.

 

http://www.centerwomenpolicy.org/publications/vawg/documents/VAW1.pdf

 

I've seen this notion presented in multiple papers.  It classifies bias motivated crimes into categories which are defined by the victims race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation and gender. 

[Orogun01]

A knife is a versatile tool, it's a weapon, a kitchen utensil, a handyman's tool...ect,ect. But what it does its to cut and pierce, in that same way that rape is a sexual act which can be used for a variety of purposes. Yet the intended use does not change the nature of the act, which depending on the context requires some degree of appeal to the perpetrator. Whether it be physical attraction, power play or hatred, it doesn't change the fact that rape can only be sexual (unless you ask some feminists what they think)
So motives for sex violence appear to me as mere excuses for performing or understanding what its a sexual act.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

ii

 

 

Blackmail someone. Kidnap him and tie him up. Torture him. Kidnap a loved one. Be in a position of power (boss at work for example)

All of those are different instances of holding power over someone. There is need for sex to relish in power.

 

 

"Frustration our of fear of rejection" is a bunch of hogwash from where I'm standing. Hell, I should be a rapist extraordinare by that logic.

 

 

Yes those are all ways that people exert power over someone but those don't apply to power over women in the context of this discussion and why men rape women.

I'm having a radical thought here, what if men rape women cause they're horny?

I could see that being the motivation in the case of a frat boy taking advantage of a drunk girl. I'm of the opinion that like almost every other crime the motive will vary by the case.

[kgambit]

A knife is a versatile tool, it's a weapon, a kitchen utensil, a handyman's tool...ect,ect. But what it does its to cut and pierce, in that same way that rape is a sexual act which can be used for a variety of purposes. Yet the intended use does not change the nature of the act, which depending on the context requires some degree of appeal to the perpetrator. Whether it be physical attraction, power play or hatred, it doesn't change the fact that rape can only be sexual (unless you ask some feminists what they think)

So motives for sex violence appear to me as mere excuses for performing or understanding what its a sexual act.

 

Conversely, let's look at it from the sense of what the desired goal is.   I can define a goal - let's say house demolition. Then I select a tool to accomplish that.  I can use dynamite, a wrecking ball, an M1 Abrams, a horde of termites, some really hungry beavers, or a demolition crew.  No matter what tool I choose the goal is the same.  Destroy the house.  The tool I choose is simply the means to that end.  In that context, a sexual assault or a physical assault against a woman can simply seen as the choice of which tool the perpetrator uses to achieve the goal of establishing power over his victim.   

 

The tool does not define the goal; rather the goal establishes which tools are suitable to achieve that goal.  The goal remains the same, only the tool changes. 

 

 

Edit:  It's probably not that easy or accurate to pigeon-hole everything so neatly.  I suspect that there are circumstances that can't be easily categorized or explained. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by kgambit

[Orogun01]

 

A knife is a versatile tool, it's a weapon, a kitchen utensil, a handyman's tool...ect,ect. But what it does its to cut and pierce, in that same way that rape is a sexual act which can be used for a variety of purposes. Yet the intended use does not change the nature of the act, which depending on the context requires some degree of appeal to the perpetrator. Whether it be physical attraction, power play or hatred, it doesn't change the fact that rape can only be sexual (unless you ask some feminists what they think)

So motives for sex violence appear to me as mere excuses for performing or understanding what its a sexual act.

 

Conversely, let's look at it from the sense of what the desired goal is.   I can define a goal - let's say house demolition. Then I select a tool to accomplish that.  I can use dynamite, a wrecking ball, an M1 Abrams, a horde of termites, some really hungry beavers, or a demolition crew.  No matter what tool I choose the goal is the same.  Destroy the house.  The tool I choose is simply the means to that end.  In that context, a sexual assault or a physical assault against a woman can simply seen as the choice of which tool the perpetrator uses to achieve the goal of establishing power over his victim.   

 

The tool does not define the goal; rather the goal establishes which tools are suitable to achieve that goal.  The goal remains the same, only the tool changes. 

 

But we don't prosecute for what an individual hoped to achieve but for what they did. Having a goal is not incompatible with favoring a means to achieve that goal, that's the difference between those who hope to achieve a peaceful revolution and those who clamor for blood under the guise of change. There is probably a reason why they chose to commit the act that's less related to their goals and more to their character. 

[BruceVC]

 

A knife is a versatile tool, it's a weapon, a kitchen utensil, a handyman's tool...ect,ect. But what it does its to cut and pierce, in that same way that rape is a sexual act which can be used for a variety of purposes. Yet the intended use does not change the nature of the act, which depending on the context requires some degree of appeal to the perpetrator. Whether it be physical attraction, power play or hatred, it doesn't change the fact that rape can only be sexual (unless you ask some feminists what they think)

So motives for sex violence appear to me as mere excuses for performing or understanding what its a sexual act.

 

  In that context, a sexual assault or a physical assault against a woman can simply seen as the choice of which tool the perpetrator uses to achieve the goal of establishing power over his victim.   

 

 

 

I know I said I wasn't going to say anything more on this topic but you have eloquently posted what I was trying to explain through several posts, good one 

Edited September 19, 2013 by BruceVC

[Orogun01]

 

 

A knife is a versatile tool, it's a weapon, a kitchen utensil, a handyman's tool...ect,ect. But what it does its to cut and pierce, in that same way that rape is a sexual act which can be used for a variety of purposes. Yet the intended use does not change the nature of the act, which depending on the context requires some degree of appeal to the perpetrator. Whether it be physical attraction, power play or hatred, it doesn't change the fact that rape can only be sexual (unless you ask some feminists what they think)

So motives for sex violence appear to me as mere excuses for performing or understanding what its a sexual act.

 

  In that context, a sexual assault or a physical assault against a woman can simply seen as the choice of which tool the perpetrator uses to achieve the goal of establishing power over his victim.   

 

 

 

I know I said I wasn't going to say anything more on this topic but you have eloquently posted what I was trying to explain through several posts, good one 

 

And why couldn't you just have said that without posting so many links?