Update #62: Production 01 - State of the Project

[Lephys]

The best part about this is you didn't even address my allegation of the irrelevance of an actual screenshot/example directly from a game in proving the usefulness of visual word emphasis in dialogue text. You didn't disagree with me. You just pretended I didn't even say it.

 

I'm not sure how you accidentally ignore an entire post, and respond to it anyway. I suppose it's possible, though.

 

I don't know how to type words that will actually impact your thought process despite being ignored, so until I develop that superpower, I bid you adieu. *tips hat*

[Hiro Protagonist II]

The best part about this is you didn't even address my allegation of the irrelevance of an actual screenshot/example directly from a game in proving the usefulness of visual word emphasis in dialogue text. You didn't disagree with me. You just pretended I didn't even say it.

 

I'm not sure how you accidentally ignore an entire post, and respond to it anyway. I suppose it's possible, though.

 

I don't know how to type words that will actually impact your thought process despite being ignored, so until I develop that superpower, I bid you adieu. *tips hat*

 

 

Well lets cut to the chase. I've asked not to have asterisks and other gimmicks in games by surrounding words with them because on my current play through of IWD 2, it's totally unnecessary.

 

You've been arguing that they are necessary and going with the usual red herring not related to games and not actually showing actual games where they have been necessary.

 

I then provided a screen shot of IWD 2 (from a google search, not my actual game) and showed that the asterisks were unecessary. I then asked you to show us some screen shots of games where it was necessary.

 

What do you do? Keep bringing up the usual red herring, ignoring my request of actual games where it was required and needed. TBH, I think you're just arguing for arguings sake. You still have not shown in any game where it was needed and the game could not be without it.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Hiro Protagonist II

[John Forseti]

Get a room, you two.

[Lephys]

Get a room, you two.

Only if you can show me a screenshot of a game in which two people engaged in a dispute got a room and it was necessary.

 

I suddenly find myself worrying about the necessity of anything Obsidian is doing in this game that they cannot show screenshot evidence of from existing games. Explanations have apparently become useless, and innovation no longer exists. O_O

[Osvir]

 

Get a room, you two.

Only if you can show me a screenshot of a game in which two people engaged in a dispute got a room and it was necessary.

 

I suddenly find myself worrying about the necessity of anything Obsidian is doing in this game that they cannot show screenshot evidence of from existing games. Explanations have apparently become useless, and innovation no longer exists. O_O

For whatever it's worth, I think you are proving a pretty strong point in your posts Lephys. I don't know if Hiro is reading the same thing as me or if he simply wants to be "King of the Hill" of your... forum bout? Regardless, I personally like the italic method, it's on point. I wouldn't even mind bold and underline if applicable in the writing, and, depending on the situation in-game (if what happens on the game screen reflects well with the dialogue screen then *shrug* why not?).

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

For whatever it's worth, I think you are proving a pretty strong point in your posts Lephys. I don't know if Hiro is reading the same thing as me or if he simply wants to be "King of the Hill" of your... forum bout? Regardless, I personally like the italic method, it's on point. I wouldn't even mind bold and underline if applicable in the writing, and, depending on the situation in-game (if what happens on the game screen reflects well with the dialogue screen then *shrug* why not?).

 

 

 

I'm not trying to be king of the hill or anthing. I showed an example of IWD 2 with a screen shot where it's totally unnecessary. You're now saying the screen shot in question did have to have the *I* and *you* with asterisks around them?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Osvir]

 

 

For whatever it's worth, I think you are proving a pretty strong point in your posts Lephys. I don't know if Hiro is reading the same thing as me or if he simply wants to be "King of the Hill" of your... forum bout? Regardless, I personally like the italic method, it's on point. I wouldn't even mind bold and underline if applicable in the writing, and, depending on the situation in-game (if what happens on the game screen reflects well with the dialogue screen then *shrug* why not?).

 

 

 

I'm not trying to be king of the hill or anthing. I showed an example of IWD 2 with a screen shot where it's totally unnecessary. You're now saying the screen shot in question did have to have the *I* and *you* with asterisks around them?

 

Did I ever state anything on this matter previously?

[Lephys]

For whatever it's worth, I think you are proving a pretty strong point in your posts Lephys. I don't know if Hiro is reading the same thing as me or if he simply wants to be "King of the Hill" of your... forum bout? Regardless, I personally like the italic method, it's on point. I wouldn't even mind bold and underline if applicable in the writing, and, depending on the situation in-game (if what happens on the game screen reflects well with the dialogue screen then *shrug* why not?).

Thanks for the reply, Osvir! I would've even welcomed a flat-out disagreement, here, so long as it was an actual response to what I actually typed.

 

Yeah, I mean, it can obviously be over-used, as with anything. Sometimes you see it in sentences where all the words that are defaultly emphasized are all italicized or hugged by asterisks, and it's 3 words every other sentence. But, something that can be over-used can obviously be not-over-used, to effect. Then, of course, there's the matter of which to go with. Personally, I prefer italics or even bolding to asterisks and underlining, as they don't actually clutter up the text with extra symbols/markings. Capitalization even has its place.

 

For example:

 

"Synelle."

"Synelle!"

"SYNELLE!"

 

Without the third one, the second could be anything from a serious/disciplinary tone to a shout at the top of one's lungs. If you see the third one, though, as opposed to the second one, you know that it represents an even greater intensity than just the exclamation point. Of course, much like italics and bolding, capitalization can sometimes get over-used by basically having it take the place of an exclamation point. But, it's pretty easy to take care not to over-use such devices.

[dukeofwhales]

I'm not trying to be king of the hill or anthing. I showed an example of IWD 2 with a screen shot where it's totally unnecessary. You're now saying the screen shot in question did have to have the *I* and *you* with asterisks around them?

 

It didn't have to have them, but it does convey additional information about how the line was spoken.  To achieve a similar effect in a novel, it might be written (and please note that I am definitely not a writer):

 

"Of course I can! I'll need to find more components though... and guard my ship - or what's left of it. Say, I could guard the ship while you retrieved my spell's components - I wrote them all down in that book over there. Interested?", and CHARNAME noted that Oswald placed particular emphasis on the fact that only CHARNAME and his party, and definitely not Oswald, would be risking their lives to resolve the issue at hand.

 

Both passages convey a similar meaning, but the latter nearly doubles the word count.  While some people's preference may be for the longer form, I do not think that kind of script was within the design spec for IWD2 (nor do I think it really adds anything to the effectiveness of the storytelling, though that might just be my writing ).

 

I'm not a huge fan aesthetically of astericks to convey emphasis, but I think itallics could comfortably be used occasionally.

Edited August 28, 2013 by dukeofwhales

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Did I ever state anything on this matter previously?

 

 

 

It comes down to the heart of the matter and my original post on this. Do you like the overuse of asterisks? I don't.

 

Here's part of my original quote.

 

 

One thing I really dislike and I'm seeing a lot of in my play through of IWD II is the over use of the asterix.

 

And then we have three pages of people disagreeing with me and yourself chiming in after I posted a screen shot to highlight my point. And yet there are posters who are still disagreeing with me including yourself, even after the screenshot clearly shows it's not needed. I would have used a better screen shot to show how bad the conversations can get with astericks everywhere but I was at work when I posted the one I did. There is a definite overuse of the astericks in IWD 2.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

It didn't have to have them,

 

Thank you.

[Osvir]

 

 

Did I ever state anything on this matter previously?

 

 

 

It comes down to the heart of the matter and my original post on this. Do you like the overuse of asterisks? I don't.

 

Here's part of my original quote.

 

 

One thing I really dislike and I'm seeing a lot of in my play through of IWD II is the over use of the asterix.

 

And then we have three pages of people disagreeing with me and yourself chiming in after I posted a screen shot to highlight my point. And yet there are posters who are still disagreeing with me. I would have used a better screen shot to show how bad the conversations can get with astericks everywhere but I was at work when I posted the one I did. There is a definite overuse of the astericks in IWD 2.

It never bothered me, to be honest. I don't mind if Obsidian would write the story however they wish and use whatever tools to, quote dukeofwhales, "convey additional information about how the lines are spoken".

 

Bold, Underline, Italic, *Asterisk*, Strike Through, CAPITAL ONLY LETTERS, or whatever really.

 

Size 8

Size 10

Size 12

Size 14

Size 18

Size 24

Size 36

Size 48

 

Several different fonts, colors, wherever and IF Obsidian feels it is applicable to a given in-game situation/environment/character. It all depends on how Obsidian wants to write for PE.

[Lephys]

Bold, Underline, Italic, *Asterisk*, Strike Through, CAPITAL ONLY LETTERS, or whatever really.

 

Size 8

Size 10

Size 12

Size 14

Size 18

Size 24

Size 36

Size 48

 

Several different fonts, colors, wherever and IF Obsidian feels it is applicable to a given in-game situation/environment/character. It all depends on how Obsidian wants to write for PE.

Agreed. Although, to be fair, sizes above 24-or-so might start causing problems with screen real estate, between dialogue boxes filling the entire screen and/or the player being inable to read more than about a short sentence at any given time without having to scroll.

 

Who knows, though... Maybe there's some far-reaching voice that comes from inside the heads of those hearing it, for miles and miles, and to convey the sheer magnitude of its source, Obsidian uses Size 48 font for a brief moment, as it beckons thousands of people at once to succumb to some command or something. *shrug*

 

Like you said... if they find a valid use for it, I say go for it.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

It never bothered me, to be honest.

 

So it doesn't bother you that the overuse of astericks could be taken out of the game? Okay. Why not just say that? It's like some big thing that people don't want to admit that it was unecessary, as per the screen shot I posted.

 

Oh no, we can't agree with Hiro even though the screen shot would be just as good without the astericks around the words. It's better to disagree with Hiro. Seriously.

[Osvir]

 

Bold, Underline, Italic, *Asterisk*, Strike Through, CAPITAL ONLY LETTERS, or whatever really.

 

Size 8

Size 10

Size 12

Size 14

Size 18

Size 24

Size 36

Size 48

 

Several different fonts, colors, wherever and IF Obsidian feels it is applicable to a given in-game situation/environment/character. It all depends on how Obsidian wants to write for PE.

Agreed. Although, to be fair, sizes above 24-or-so might start causing problems with screen real estate, between dialogue boxes filling the entire screen and/or the player being inable to read more than about a short sentence at any given time without having to scroll.

 

Who knows, though... Maybe there's some far-reaching voice that comes from inside the heads of those hearing it, for miles and miles, and to convey the sheer magnitude of its source, Obsidian uses Size 48 font for a brief moment, as it beckons thousands of people at once to succumb to some command or something. *shrug*

 

Like you said... if they find a valid use for it, I say go for it.

 

True. But who is to say that Obsidian can't *gasp* animate some of the text size for a brief moment? (I know that some jRPG's do this fairly well where the text can get bigger than the screen box a la "SAY WHAAAT!?" and then shrink back to normal size for emphasis of, in this case, the excessively surprised emotion)

 

And there is also the example which you bring up Lephys. I get an image of some "Leader" or some "Tyrant" on top of a stage and he looks down on his underlings and uses some sort of Magical "Command Word" and just roars:

 

"OBEY!"

 

And everyone around just falls to their knees, succumbing to the sheer amount of raw power the words hold.

[Osvir]

 

It never bothered me, to be honest.

 

So it doesn't bother you that the overuse of astericks could be taken out of the game? Okay. Why not just say that? It's like some big thing that people don't want to admit that it was unecessary, as per the screen shot I posted.

 

Oh no, we can't agree with Hiro even though the screen shot would be just as good without the astericks around the words. It's better to disagree with Hiro. Seriously.

The asterisks didn't bother me was what I was saying.

 

I also don't think it is, was or even would be unnecessary. This is my opinion, your opinion is further down in this post. I think the general dialogue doesn't feel the same in the examples where you've removed the asterisks around the words, Oswald doesn't convey the spoken lines in the same way when they are there. However, that doesn't mean that asterisks is the only method to convey spoken lines.

 

Italics does the same trick.

 

One thing *I* really dislike and *I* am seeing a lot of in *my* play through of IWD II is the over use of the asterix.

 

^I put some emphasis on some words I thought were important. Btw, ^your opinion.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I also don't think it is, was or even would be unnecessary. This is my opinion, your opinion is further down in this post. I think the general dialogue doesn't feel the same in the examples where you've removed the asterisks around the words, Oswald doesn't convey the spoken lines in the same way when they are there. However, that doesn't mean that asterisks is the only method to convey spoken lines.

 

So for you the astericks have to be there in the screenshot I posted. That's what you're saying. While others like myself can still read the words without the astericks and still get the same meaning.

 

 

 

 

One thing *I* really dislike and *I* am seeing a lot of in *my* play through of IWD II is the over use of the asterix.

 

^I put some emphasis on some words I thought were important. Btw, ^your opinion.

 

 

Yep, redundant. Which is why I don't use them and didn't in my original post.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Hiro Protagonist II

[LadyCrimson]

Hiro, it doesn't matter if they *have* to be there or not. What matters is the fact that their mere presence seems to bother you (which is fine). Many people, I think, just really don't care if words or phrases are asterisked, italicized, bolded, etc now and then ... some people may actually find them additive if used judiciously and only find them annoying if used every other word. Other people may find any use of bold, or (parathesis) or colored text as irritating and unneeded as you find asterisks.

You seem to keep harping on the whether not they're needed at all, period, simply because you want them gone. To you they're not needed, because you don't like them/they do nothing and add nothing for you. That may not be true for everyone on the planet, however. It is not a logical thing and trying to reduce it to such seems kind of pointless. So let's just say you have your preferences on what you think is "needed" and annoying ... can we drop this sub-topic now/move on?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Hiro, it doesn't matter if they *have* to be there or not. What matters is the fact that their mere presence seems to bother you (which is fine). Many people, I think, just really don't care if words or phrases are asterisked, italicized, bolded, etc now and then ... some people may actually find them additive if used judiciously and only find them annoying if used every other word. Other people may find any use of bold, or (parathesis) or colored text as irritating and unneeded as you find asterisks.

 

You seem to keep harping on the whether not they're needed at all, period, simply because you want them gone. To you they're not needed, because you don't like them/they do nothing and add nothing for you. That may not be true for everyone on the planet, however. It is not a logical thing and trying to reduce it to such seems kind of pointless. So let's just say you have your preferences on what you think is "needed" and annoying ... can we drop this sub-topic now/move on?

 

Okay. I'll *move* on, *because* writing like *this* with *astericks* and *italics* obviously *doesn't* bother *anyone* here and *they* like this *type* of *format* in *their* games..

Edited August 28, 2013 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Xienzi]

 

Hiro, it doesn't matter if they *have* to be there or not. What matters is the fact that their mere presence seems to bother you (which is fine). Many people, I think, just really don't care if words or phrases are asterisked, italicized, bolded, etc now and then ... some people may actually find them additive if used judiciously and only find them annoying if used every other word. Other people may find any use of bold, or (parathesis) or colored text as irritating and unneeded as you find asterisks.

 

You seem to keep harping on the whether not they're needed at all, period, simply because you want them gone. To you they're not needed, because you don't like them/they do nothing and add nothing for you. That may not be true for everyone on the planet, however. It is not a logical thing and trying to reduce it to such seems kind of pointless. So let's just say you have your preferences on what you think is "needed" and annoying ... can we drop this sub-topic now/move on?

 

Okay. I'll *move* on, *because* writing like *this* with *astericks* and *italics* obviously *doesn't* bother *anyone* here and *they* like this *type* of *format* in *their* games..

 

 

It's like you're constantly changing voice pitches between library-quiet-floor level and Elvis concert level.

[TrashMan]

 

 

The decline of education in our schools is responsible for the awareness of the difference between claims of benefit and claims of necessity? That seems an odd truth...

 

Also, yes... italics is totally a new thing. It was invented by robot computers, and not by typesetters hundreds of years ago. You got me.

 

 

So when I pick up a book and can read it without the italics, the asterixs, the dashs and everything else to emphasize certain words, then clearly the author got it wrong. Lephys says so.

 

 

Italics and bold exist for a reaon. Putting emphasis on certain words exists for a reason.

The same sentance can have a different meaning and cast a completely different light on a character and his feeling/thoughts.

 

Lephyses example is good, so  let's use it:

 

"I didn't accuse her of anything!"

OR

 

"I didn't accuse her of anything!"

 

give a completely different impression of a character. Wetehr Joe feels indignant for being accused or we despises teh "her" in question, paints a compeltely ddifferent picture of Joe.

In a movie, the tone of voice and emphasis can be heard, but not in a book. Ergo, it is the the duty of a GOOD writer to make his characters thoughts and motivations clear.

 

Sure, you can replace it with far longer descriptions, like:

"I didnt' accuse her of anything!" - Joe raised his voice, puttign the emphasis on her.

 

But you're effectively doing he same thing, just with extra padding.

 

You might save that a less defined character is better one as it makes it easier for hte audience to proejct/interpret the meaning of his wods, but I say no.

 

in othr words, yes -  the author can get it wrong. Because lord knows there are some ****ty authors out there.

[TrashMan]

For what must be the third time already. Can you show screen shots of games where the emphasis of words with gimmicks like asterixs has added to the game and was necessary?

 

Also attacking me for being difficult and for the jollies is poor form. You've been consistantly avoiding the issue of where these gimmicks have been added to games and added context to what's been said in games. Who's being difficult? It's certainly not me when I've shown an example from IWD 2 where it's unnecessary.

 

 

What makes you think it was unnecessary?

 

It was necesary, as it conveys the exact way the line was spoken and which words were emphasized. If you read that sentance in your head in a gnomish voice, it wont' sounds the same with and without the asteriks (or italics, or bolds) in question.

 

Inflection IS important.

 

And what is even funnier is your (un)example of overuse. That IWD2 screenshot undermines your point, for the asterisk has been used TWICE in that entire covnersation and in palces where it makes sense.

Edited August 28, 2013 by TrashMan

[LadyCrimson]

Okay. I'll *move* on, *because* writing like *this* with *astericks* and *italics* obviously *doesn't* bother *anyone* here and *they* like this *type* of *format* in *their* games..

... yes, that amount of usage bothers me personally, like I already mentioned. Mostly (for me) because it creates a visual staccato interruption, akin to using extremely short sentences with periods too many times in a row, rather than as an affront to my intelligence. But asterisks used a couple times over the course of a paragraph or three...bothers me not a whit.

 

Anyway...always interesting the different things we all can have pet peeves with. Like too many smilies. I know some people can't stand that. And I sometimes use too many.

[mstark]

@Hiro,

 

I haven't read your entire discussion word-by-word, but I think I get what it seems to be about. Your main argument seems to be that emphasis is an unnecessary gimmick in writing, and, frankly, it's not. It's a valuable tool at the disposal of any author/writer.

 

To begin with, the definition of the word emphasis (see #3). You may also want to read up on Rhetoric.

 

Basic rules for how to achieve it with typesetting.

 

That it's a gimmick is a personal opinion of yours, I would happily bet you that any writer would beg to disagree. In a form of communication that lacks expression, emphasis as the single form of inflection is invaluable.

 

You are right, however, that using asterisks to achieve this emphasis is a gimmick. It's an artefact from "chat" language (and typesetting software), since there's commonly no way to bold/underline/italicize text in chat programs. In environs where advanced typesetting isn't readily available, the following can be used: *bold*, _underlined_, and /italic/. I am guessing the IWD team only had time to kern a single weight for the bitmap font they decided to use, and resorted to asterisks for emphasis rather than kern the entire bold version, too.

 

There's, of course, such a thing as too much. However, emphasis, by its very definition, isn't emphasis any more when used too much.

 

I'm not writing this as a personal opinion, merely presenting facts.

Edited August 28, 2013 by mstark

[Stun]

Personally, I agree that such tools of emphasis are not needed (Although, a game that mixes voiced lines and unvoiced lines benefits greatly by using ALL CAPS to represent Yelling, and perhaps the occasional bold text to represent inflection within a sentence)

 

However, is this really an important issue? My stance is that I really don't care if a game has such things or if it doesn't, therefore, I won't waste my time, on a thread being watched by Busy devs, to specifically ask for their removal. Why? because it's not important to me. Planescape Torment wouldn't have been a better game without *astrisks*, would it?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Stun