Update #58: Crafting with Tim Cain!

[Azmodiuz]

you mean things you craft ?

ScionKai... reminds me of NWN2 and when your stronghold gets attacked... you upgrade you army etc.. kind of very similiar..  was kind of fun, but in the long run, feels like wasn't enough. imo

[TT1]

So ... what the hell happened here? What is in the game is totally different (for the worse) from what was described in this update.

 

Any chance the original idea to be implemented in future updates? It would be very interesting and would add much value to the game.

Edited May 10, 2015 by TT1

[Lord_Mord]

Yes, I liked that, too. Would make the crafting system less ... boring.

[GrinningReaper659]

I am definitely not a fan of the proposed crafting system, and have been put off by the crafting systems in games such as NWN2 for a few reasons:

 

-Being able, as an adventurer, to craft any possible weapon makes little sense to me.

-Crafting seems to diminish looting and buying when you can make any weapon of any power through the annoyance of collecting every scrap of material you find.

-I have never found this process fun.

 

I thoroughly enjoyed crafting as it was done in the BG games, it was simple and made a lot of sense. Find all the pieces, and have an actual master craftsman put them together for a fee. This maintains the looting and buying systems and gives a greater sense of accomplishment when you are able to get the pieces and craft an epic, unique weapon of some sort.

 

What to spend money on:

-I don't really have anything against consumables, and they're a good money sink that make sense to me

-The availability of unique, epic equipment for sale in stores can be understadably off-putting for some, but there could be ways of buying such items apart from in generic stores: special merchants that you run into while travelling or potentially an NPC that you run into that is impoverished to the point of having to sell off a powerful family heirloom, and you have only the one chance to buy it, retired adventurers that you come across that may be willing to sell some item from their former adventuring days if the right price is offered and the right words said. I don't have a problem with some of these epic and expensive items being in Adventurers' Mart type stores, but there are plenty of ways to put them elsewhere that make sense, give the player the opportunity to spend money, and don't make the player feel as if they can buy every possible piece of equipment in the game from a single merchant.

-BG2 style crafting of unique items which are expensive to create, it makes sense to have to pay a small fortune to have a legendary piece of equipment recreated for you, especially if there are only a handful (or less) of people capable of doing it.

-Potentially some occasional bribery options to make certain jobs go easier; or a monetary gift to impress or bend the will of a faction leader whose coffers are getting light.

 

Just quoting myself to repeat my thoughts, they have not changed.

 

 

So ... what the hell happened here? What is in the game is totally different (for the worse) from what was described in this update.

 

Any chance the original idea to be implemented in future updates? It would be very interesting and would add much value to the game.

 

EDIT: Crafting and enchanting (both of which will be from this point forward collectively referred to as variations of 'craft' - craft, crafting, crafted, craftable, craftastic, etc.) will be discussed in this post.

 

 

Seems like the slippery slope of accessibility and modernization to me:

 

In BG2, you have only unique items craftable by actual blacksmiths after collecting the pieces. From there it seems to go something like this:

 

Let's make a bunch of awesome items craftable.

Let's just make pretty much all items craftable.

Let's just let all players craft basically anything, even items that challenge or surpass the best epic equipment you can find in the game.

 

Okay, but the player still needs to find recipes throughout the world, improve their crafting skill, and can only craft at a forge, so it won't be universally achievable without any effort or anything.

 

You know what, let's just let any player craft anywhere, forget forges, hearths, and labs.

Yeah, let's forget about the crafting skill too.

Why not drop recipes as well, now every player can craft anything anytime!

 

Great, now we have a crafting system which doesn't make much sense, is boring because all associated challenge has been removed, and that also serves to undermine equipment progression and unique magic equipment. If you can't tell, I don't like the crafting system much. The worst part is that these seemingly forced stretch goals that resulted in bland and/or shallow systems are now going to affect the whole franchise, because Obsidian likely believes that rolling back or removing a system such as the stronghold, crafting, etc. would look like admitting failure.

 

I would absolutely love it if, instead of the stronghold we have now, they made PoE2 with the simple class strongholds that were in BG2. They weren't overly complicated and sometimes only had a couple of quests, but they were somewhat reactive in that they were (sort of) unique to your class, and they didn't seem like weird mini-games. I think the crafting system of PoE2 would be better off if it took some notes from BG2 as well, maybe using a BG2-like system, but with more plentiful, actual recipes that you find throughout the world for most stuff and then collecting pieces for the epic loot like in BG2. But I seriously doubt those things will happen.

Edited May 14, 2015 by GrinningReaper659

[Varana]

But you can't "craft" weapons, armour and other accessories in the game. You can enchant them (which is called "crafting" for some reason) to give them some bonuses.

You can create potions, scrolls, and food stuff, though.

So your assumed trend doesn't seem very plausible to me. The player cannot craft "pretty much all items", and most enchantments are only available on pre-made items, so self-enchanted stuff doesn't challenge or surpass the best found equipment.

That doesn't mean that PoE's crafting system is a good one. It just seems to me that you kind of rant about crafting systems from all over the place, without checking whether these issues actually pertain to PoE.

[GrinningReaper659]

@Varana Fixed

 

 

most enchantments are only available on pre-made items, so self-enchanted stuff doesn't challenge or surpass the best found equipment.

 

It's true that there are some cool unique equipment abilities that can't be enchanted onto equipment by the player. In most cases, though, my best gear ended up being stuff I enchanted myself because the universally allowed enchantments are very good and fill up the maximum allowed enchantments neatly, while sometime the unique abilities keep the item from ever being fully enchanted (12/12) and it ends up being less powerful because of that or simply because the un-enchantable ability isn't as good as one of the abilities you can enchant. I did exaggerate though, there are certainly some things that can't be enchanted by the player.

[Lord_Mord]

What I think was the most fun thing about crafting in Baldurs Gate, is that the items you crafted felt special. I don't care much about what they did (making X fire damage), I mostly care about that it felt magic. One Part of it was, that their properties matched their history (This is also the case in PoE, even if it somehow does not always feel that way. The 1.05 patch made some of the items more interesting, I want more of that). The other (more important) part was, how they were created. Some of them were parts of magical weapons found all over the world. Some needed very special items. Collecting some stones and body parts is something, every pig farmer can do. But if the receipe tells you: "Find the head of a lich" or "Bring me the tears of a dryad" (And I know, I won't find those things in every pile of junk, a dead enemy leaves behind) it becomes an interesting and sometimes challenging quest.

 

I would prefer a combination of the two: You find receipes and you need a smith or mighty magician, to enchant or craft something (That is totally necessary). Some receipes are rather simple (PoE-Style. Collect this and that kind of plant, a gem, a potion, whatever). In that case you can get a slight buff for your weapon. Does not matter which weapon. Some receipes are more interesting (You need a certain item/weapon and more interesting/unique ingredients). In return you get a very unique and interesting item (Eiher it is very strong or very interesting, because maybe it has some unique ability that you can't get in another way inside the game. Summoning some special character, crazy teleporting stuff, I don't know).

 

And most of all: The receipes should make sense. The 1 plant, 1 bodypart, 1 gem thing is kind of stupid. Why are that always the ingredients? And if it must be this way: Why the hell do I need a vithracks brain, to give my armour a better quality? I f the result would be +2 Intellect, that would make much more sense. I get the feeling, that the person who thought this out, was thinking more about balance than what names and icons the ingredients would have. And that is what the enchanting system currently is: A bunch of random names and icons. That does not mean, I totally dislike it. It just feels very random to me.

[Bryy]

Next iteration, crafting should really be more visual.

[EdwinP]

Update by Tim Cain, Senior Programmer and Designer

 

Crafting Basics

Crafting is the skill that you use to make equippable items like armor and weapons, and consumable items like potions and food. To begin crafting, you must find an appropriate crafting location.

 

Some recipes will have additional prerequisites, including requiring you or a companion to have a certain talent or ability or even skill at an appropriate level. Higher level recipes have more prerequisites and need rarer ingredients.

 

You may be wondering where you get recipes. You get a few automatically when you level up your crafting skill, and you can also buy them from vendors. Sometimes you will find recipes in the world, as loot on creatures or as rewards for finishing quests. There will be a lot of recipes in Project Eternity for you to find, so make sure you explore every nook and cranny of this world, especially the crannies.

 

Crafting doesn’t take any time. If you have everything the recipe needs and are at the appropriate crafting location, then you can make the item instantly.

 

I like the original concept;

 

1. Crafting is a skill.

2. Crafting skill level (along with talents, other skills (i.e. Lore)) may be a requirement for specific enchantments

3. Crafting is instantaneous

4. Crafting can only be done at specific locations

• This could be simplified by allowing crafting only in your stronghold, if the required stronghold upgrade has been built.
• Or crafting could be allowed only in cities, settlements and your stronghold
• i.e. the PC should not be able to enchant a sword in a dungeon or wilderness area

5. Levels in crafting provide access to new recipes & enchantments.

• More levels in crafting unlocks more enchantments. A good reason to improve this skill.
• Will talents affect the enchantments that you learn?
• Was Tim considering having the new recipes / enchantments at each level be fixed or randomly selected from a pool of recipes & enchantments or a combination of the two? I.e. 2 fixed recipes / enchantments and 1 randomly selected one

6. PCs can find new recipes and enchantments.

• Excellent, those books you find may contain recipes for new enchantments.
• Idea: Some enchantments may require the PC to find all the books in a series to unlock the enchantment.

I wonder if the developers are considering this functionality for a future update or expansion?

Edited June 5, 2015 by EdwinP