Fighters in Project Eternity will have stamina regeneration in combat

[Infinitron]

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506352&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=13#post416996876

 

 

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/475523297363126588

 

 

Thoughts?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I would like to see the mechanics explained in full context(when we know all of the rules for PE), but I'm fine with the idea.

[Sensuki]

I'd like to see a demonstration of it before I make a judgement.

 

As long as Barbarians still have the highest health/stamina totals I think that's okay that the fighter has in-combat stamina regen as long as it isn't too quick. I random guess would be like 1 every 10 seconds, but that might be too slow.

Haven't seen what combat looks like yet.

 

It makes a difference on a per-encounter basis as a Fighter would be slightly harder to take down than a Paladin with the same health (then again, maybe not as the Paladin has a high deflection), but over the course of a few encounters they've still taken 25% health damage of all the stamina damage they've taken so at the cost of a bit more grit during an encounter, they'll have less HP left over for the rest of the day.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Sensuki

[Infinitron]

It's true that stamina regeneration actually comes with a temptation to to lose more health, so it's sort of a double-edged sword.

[Prometheus]

As long as Barbarians still have the highest health/stamina totals I think that's okay that the fighter has in-combat stamina regen as long as it isn't too quick. I random guess would be like 1 every 10 seconds, but that might be too slow.

Why should the barbarian has the highest stamina/health totals?

 

In my opinion the fighter is the class with the highest endurance and the barbarian is a class with high damage but also high risk to die.

 

The stamina regen sould be equal on all levels, so either it should be a percentage of your max stamina or rise if you advance in level.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Prometheus

[Sensuki]

Barbarian has the highest hit dice in D&D 2E, 3E and 4E.

 

P:E Barbarian is about Melee AoE damage / taking out trashmobs.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Sensuki

[Sacred_Path]

it's old info AFAIK. Also I think it's necessary to make the presence of healers in the party not mandatory.

[Prometheus]

Barbarian has the highest hit dice in D&D 2E, 3E and 4E.

Thanks I did'nt know that.

 

P:E Barbarian is about Melee AoE damage / taking out trashmobs.

And they can sprint and ignore the hit effect of breaking a melee engagement but they take the full damage. They also have a different formula for converting Stamina to health damage.

[SunBroSolaire]

Bear in mind that all (I think all?) classes have their own stamina healing abilities. In that context, and in the context of dual HP pools, auto-regeneration is not such a crazy idea as it would be the IE games. After thinking about it for a bit this morning, I kind of like the idea. It will create a strong impetus to keep pressure on the fighter, since letting up for even a few seconds means losing ground. It kind of forces them to be a high priority target, reinforcing their role as the front line of defense. For the player, it means your fighter is being 'wasted' if he isn't in the middle of the battlefield. 

 

Yeah, seems like a potentially good idea. We'll see when the actual game comes out, of course.

Edited June 30, 2013 by SunBroSolaire

[Nonek]

I've got to admit i'm very worried about these preferred role mechanics, especially with their aping of Dragon Age 2 and World of Warcraft. With Barbarians now being ideal for trash mobs not bosses, fighters being meat shields and rogues being the damage dealers of choice. I just can't see how exactly a Barbarian is supposed to hit multiple foes, or a rogue untrained in arms, armour and one on one combat can suddenly match the damage output of a well armed and trained man at arms.

 

Personally i'd prefer if the Rogue were a master at misdirecting, crippling and weakening the enemy, with the option of a killing stroke if the enemy should be severely incapacitated. The Barbarian be the high risk and high reward warrior, the classic berserker whom terrifies opponents maybe with his bloodlust, perhaps feeds on the pain of other in direct opposition to the monk. While the fighter is the master of damage and duelling, an expert at taking down whichever foe he's focusing on, rather than being a soldier and shieldbearer. With perhaps the Paladin taking the role of damage sponge and attention puller, to work in tandem with his buffing, an anchor for the party.

 

However I will add that i've not played the rules as implemented by Mr Sawyer and co. so my worries may be totally baseless, and their vision the optimal and fun method of resolving combat in Eternity.

[Gumbercules]

Could be good, could be bad, can't tell without getting a better feel for combat in general. I will say that I like that they seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on making sure that fighters are tough and useful.

[Gfted1]

It's true that stamina regeneration actually comes with a temptation to to lose more health, so it's sort of a double-edged sword.

 

I would be curious to hear you expand on this point. IMO, its nothing more than a case of diminishing returns. We know that 95% of attacks against the player will cause damage and that all damage is dealt across both Stamina and Health at some ratio. We also know that the one and only way to replenish Health is to rest, which can only be done at specific locations. With that in mind, it seems obvious to me that regardless of Stamina regeneration or abilities, your Health can only go down. So it doesn't matter at all if you are at full Stamina if you are one Health hit away from dropping dead.

[Sensuki]

But it does matter on the first half of an adventuring day where your character is in danger of being knocked out.

[Gfted1]

What? You get knocked out on zero Stamina, (kinda) dead at zero Health.

[Eiphel]

 

It's true that stamina regeneration actually comes with a temptation to to lose more health, so it's sort of a double-edged sword.

 

I would be curious to hear you expand on this point. IMO, its nothing more than a case of diminishing returns. We know that 95% of attacks against the player will cause damage and that all damage is dealt across both Stamina and Health at some ratio. We also know that the one and only way to replenish Health is to rest, which can only be done at specific locations. With that in mind, it seems obvious to me that regardless of Stamina regeneration or abilities, your Health can only go down. So it doesn't matter at all if you are at full Stamina if you are one Health hit away from dropping dead.

 

Imagine a tough encounter though - Your health and stamina have both got beaten down a fair way, you need to retreat from the front line to recover. But if your stamina regenerates, maybe your health is still low but you have a decent stock of stamina. This fight has been really tough and you reckon if you just keep up the DPS a few more moments you might triumph. With your decent stamina, you reckon you can survive, just, so you go for it. There is definitely a bit of an incentive to go for longer which might tell upon your HP.

[Gfted1]

Imagine a tough encounter though - Your health and stamina have both got beaten down a fair way, you need to retreat from the front line to recover. But if your stamina regenerates, maybe your health is still low but you have a decent stock of stamina. This fight has been really tough and you reckon if you just keep up the DPS a few more moments you might triumph. With your decent stamina, you reckon you can survive, just, so you go for it. There is definitely a bit of an incentive to go for longer which might tell upon your HP.

Within an existing battle that you have already engaged in? I completely agree but what's really the choice in that case? Its win or die.

 

Im talking about after that fight. Every subsequent fight slowly whittles down your Health a little more and soon, regardless of player skill or equipment, you have no other choice but to retreat to the "rest spot" to recover Health.

[Sensuki]

What? You get knocked out on zero Stamina, (kinda) dead at zero Health.

 

That's right and Stamina regeneration makes it harder for you to be knocked out.

[Gfted1]

 

What? You get knocked out on zero Stamina, (kinda) dead at zero Health.

 

That's right and Stamina regeneration makes it harder for you to be knocked out.

 

Ok, now that we've established the basics maybe we can move on. How does that affect the fact that you can be at full Stamina and still die to the next attack because your Health is low?

[Eiphel]

 

Within an existing battle that you have already engaged in? I completely agree but what's really the choice in that case? Its win or die.

Not at all - You could have another melee DPS in the party and move them up to the frontline, retiring the fighter to a support position to be healed by a cleric or paladin maybe. You're prolonging the fight and lowering your certainty of winning, but that's not the same as 'die'. It's 'go for the win right now' versus 'prolong the battle'. And having more stamina handy can encourage the former.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Eiphel

[Nonek]

Adore this idea of finite health whatever your stamina, hopefully it will really make combat a dangerous proposition, as it should be. Still one assumes the camps are still available to fall back to, if one feels the risk is too extreme.

[Gfted1]

Not at all - You could have another melee DPS in the party and move them up to the frontline, retiring the fighter to a support position to be healed by a cleric or paladin maybe. You're prolonging the fight and lowering your certainty of winning, but that's not the same as 'die'. It's 'go for the win right now' versus 'prolong the battle'. And having more stamina handy can encourage the former.

Ah, now I get you. Yes of course "healing" is an absolute must have while in combat, that's standard fare for (almost) every RPG ever. We know this will be a combat-centric game so what Im talking about is the death by 1000 cuts. The times when you will literally be at full Stamina and still be 1-2 hits away from death due to low Health. And Health being so pigeon holed as to having only one (seemingly pita) mechanic to restore it.

[Lephys]

Every subsequent fight slowly whittles down your Health a little more and soon, regardless of player skill or equipment, you have no other choice but to retreat to the "rest spot" to recover Health.

Or the-opposite-of-retreat forward to the next rest spot. I don't know why you're so stuck on worst-case scenarios, Gfted1. Yes, you MIGHT need to move backwards to rest again. You MIGHT get down to 2 Health, at which point your Stamina is pointless.

 

Stamina regen doesn't help eliminate the possibility that your health will get down to 2 and the next hit will kill you. What it DOES do is allow your Fighter to not "die" in a given, tough fight (which the rest of your party might be screwed in without the help of your Fighter). How far from the next/previous rest point you are at that point, and how tough all the fights are in between you and the next one (and therefore, the likelihood that you'll lose the rest of your health before then) is dependent upon OODLES of completely different factors.

 

With no stamina regen, the Warrior can't do that. In any given fight, he's more likely to be knocked out, since he has no means of regaining stamina (when he's got 100 health left, but only 5 Stamina). All the health conservation in the world doesn't help you if you don't make it through the current fight alive.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Lephys

[Gfted1]

Perhaps you missed the part where Im talking about Health. Everyone knows how Stamina will work (just like Health in other games).

 

And nobody retreats forward, that's stupid. You retreat back to the places you've already cleared and to known rest locations.

[Chrononaut]

Pretty disappointing imho.

 

You can claim it doesn't matter because "health" doesn't regen, but stamina regen (especially in combat for Fighters) will have a huge impact on how the game plays. Even in Baldur's Gate 20CON Fighters essentially make fighting trash mobs nothing but boring grinding.

 

It's disappointing on a matter of general principle too. Obsidian (and L.Designer Sawyer) essentially appealed to Kickstarter based entirely on Infinity Engine AD&D, and then when they got the money wasted no time at all (well, mostly Sawyer) making nothing but incessant criticisms of the Infinity Engine games and how they played. Resting is bad, daily spells are bad, cooldowns aren't bad, class-based restrictions are bad, round-based combat is bad, dice-roll randomness is bad in combat, wizards being powerful is bad, everything must be super balanced.

 

So Infinity Engine games were awesome on Kickstarter, but now they suck, apparently, and OE want to make a completely different game. Seems to me like this game will play more like an RTS and less like an AD&D IE game, even though fans were led to believe it would be an IE-like game. I don't think prerendered isometric graphics make it IE-like except from a completely cosmetic angle, the gameplay is shaping up to be nothing like IE gameplay.

[Inertia]

I've got to admit i'm very worried about these preferred role mechanics, especially with their aping of Dragon Age 2 and World of Warcraft. With Barbarians now being ideal for trash mobs

Guts barbarian incarnate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akrIUNjt7zE