Resting doesn't work, ditch it

[curryinahurry]

But health didn't degenerate over time as 'Daily Stamina' would. And Daily Stamina is not affected by casting/taking hits

 

 

So you're outlining  a fatigue system; a third bar?  I'm not really in favor of individual fatigue in a party based/oriented crpg.  Since different party members are likely to fatigue at different rates due to the mechanism being tied to ability scores, almost everyone will rest when the weakest (daily stamina-wise) party member reaches his/her nadir.  It's probably better to have a party fatigue system if that is is what you want to incorporate into gameplay.

 

 I'm not against such a mechanic, it's more a matter of how it could be done; maybe take an average value acroos the party?  Also one would have to determine what causes fatigue; encounters, exploring on different types of terrain, searching rooms, etc.  It could be an interesting mechanic.  

[Iucounu]

You could make it challenging to find a good restspot at all. If you decide to rest at some place that is not hidden enough, the spawning monsters/enemies could be overwhelming, more or less the half force of the whole dungeon or whatever, coming for you while you're fatigued, hunting you out of the dungeon, if you're not surrounded already, because somebody hasn't done his job right. 

There could be expendable ressources as well, e.g firewood for camping out in the cold, that determine how refreshing the rest is, so you can eventually rest up to full health and zero fatigue without returning to the main camp, but only for a very expensive price. If you have a longer journey, where you're often ambushed, this could bite back, so it adds to the overall strategical challenge. 

Also, firecircles for protection against predators and monsters when sleeping somewhere in the forest, perhaps even magical shielding, which would require more than one spellcaster to establish. 

In some cases there could be larger encampments nearby, when you're travelling with some mercanaries, other adventurers or when you're escorting merchants. Naturally, it would be saver to rest in this cases, even if you're ambushed by a large force. 

Also, powerful magic scrolls like ropetrick in D&D that allow you to rest in dangerous places without being discovered (as long as your enemies aren't using scrying magic). 

[Gfted1]

What this game needs is a Rope Trick spell as a means of portable rest location.

[curryinahurry]

You could make it challenging to find a good restspot at all. If you decide to rest at some place that is not hidden enough, the spawning monsters/enemies could be overwhelming, more or less the half force of the whole dungeon or whatever, coming for you while you're fatigued, hunting you out of the dungeon, if you're not surrounded already, because somebody hasn't done his job right. 

There could be expendable ressources as well, e.g firewood for camping out in the cold, that determine how refreshing the rest is, so you can eventually rest up to full health and zero fatigue without returning to the main camp, but only for a very expensive price. If you have a longer journey, where you're often ambushed, this could bite back, so it adds to the overall strategical challenge. 

Also, firecircles for protection against predators and monsters when sleeping somewhere in the forest, perhaps even magical shielding, which would require more than one spellcaster to establish. 

In some cases there could be larger encampments nearby, when you're travelling with some mercanaries, other adventurers or when you're escorting merchants. Naturally, it would be saver to rest in this cases, even if you're ambushed by a large force. 

Also, powerful magic scrolls like ropetrick in D&D that allow you to rest in dangerous places without being discovered (as long as your enemies aren't using scrying magic). 

 

 

I'm not a big fan of resource management for resting purposes like food, wood, etc.  But the rest of the things you mentioned would be fine; particularly with regards to creating a secure environment.  If there is resource management in that regard; having oil, traps, caltrops, wards, door spikes, etc., that would be great as it can be part of the camping interface and a real mechanic to create a level of security.  

[Iucounu]

Yeah, that would be a real application for trap setting and stuff. And in some way, it's a ressource itself, when you really need it on high difficulty modes. 

I'm also against food. Carrying firewood is probably also a bit too much, but if the party happens to travel through some sort of ice desert, it would make sense. 

 

Something like Rope Trick would definitely be cool.

[Utukka]

I actually prefer it to be like Baludrs Gate. It allowed me to play lazy when I wanted to or "roleplay" a more realistic venture. Freedom is a good thing, it's not like this is some competitive game against others where every aspect needs to be 100% controlled. Hell, if you care that much about showing others how good you are, you can just stream/record yourself playing no rest/no reload and voila! My favorite part of BG2 was playing 100% random generated parties and trying to run no reload through insane on w/e that main mod was called. Good stuff.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Utukka

[Lephys]

I actually prefer it to be like Baludrs Gate. It allowed me to play lazy when I wanted to or "roleplay" a more realistic venture. Freedom is a good thing, it's not like this is some competitive game against others where every aspect needs to be 100% controlled. Hell, if you care that much about showing others how good you are, you can just stream/record yourself playing no rest/no reload and voila! My favorite part of BG2 was playing 100% random generated parties and trying to run no reload through insane on w/e that main mod was called. Good stuff.

By that logic, your attacks should just naturally hit 100% of the time and deal infinite damage. You could always optionally choose your own accuracy when you attacked, and choose to deal finite damage, you know... whenever you just happened to feel like "roleplaying" a more realistic venture. Also, dialogues should just go however you want them to. There should just be a "make them give me 1000 gold" option. I mean, you could always choose to not-click on that one.

 

In fact, the game could just auto-pilot you through itself. You could always toggle manual control, if you wanted to. Otherwise, who is the game to tell you that you must travel to the next city to actually GET to the next city, or that that city even has anything to do with playing the game? Pssh. Silly game, u_u. It's not like combat, itself, is a competition between you and the enemies that can be easily adjusted using difficulty options whilst still remaining a competition. 8P

[Utukka]

 

I actually prefer it to be like Baludrs Gate. It allowed me to play lazy when I wanted to or "roleplay" a more realistic venture. Freedom is a good thing, it's not like this is some competitive game against others where every aspect needs to be 100% controlled. Hell, if you care that much about showing others how good you are, you can just stream/record yourself playing no rest/no reload and voila! My favorite part of BG2 was playing 100% random generated parties and trying to run no reload through insane on w/e that main mod was called. Good stuff.

By that logic, your attacks should just naturally hit 100% of the time and deal infinite damage. You could always optionally choose your own accuracy when you attacked, and choose to deal finite damage, you know... whenever you just happened to feel like "roleplaying" a more realistic venture. Also, dialogues should just go however you want them to. There should just be a "make them give me 1000 gold" option. I mean, you could always choose to not-click on that one.

 

In fact, the game could just auto-pilot you through itself. You could always toggle manual control, if you wanted to. Otherwise, who is the game to tell you that you must travel to the next city to actually GET to the next city, or that that city even has anything to do with playing the game? Pssh. Silly game, u_u. It's not like combat, itself, is a competition between you and the enemies that can be easily adjusted using difficulty options whilst still remaining a competition. 8P

 

Obviously that logic doesn't make sense to be applied everywhere but in a way, correct me if I'm wrong, but many of the IE games did make just about everything you listed possible besides going on autopilot. Between the slider bar for difficulty, the save/reload possibilities, and the console commands....just about anything was possible. My preference is to play on the hardest difficulty, no reloads etc for the majority of times but it doesn't hurt on certain features to provide options that can appease all levels of play when feasible.

[TrashMan]

Chats don't and shouldn't count as basic "game design".

Saying that cheats or hte dev console enables you to violate all mechanics doesn't make it a design feature.

[Lephys]

Obviously that logic doesn't make sense to be applied everywhere but in a way, correct me if I'm wrong, but many of the IE games did make just about everything you listed possible besides going on autopilot. Between the slider bar for difficulty, the save/reload possibilities, and the console commands....just about anything was possible. My preference is to play on the hardest difficulty, no reloads etc for the majority of times but it doesn't hurt on certain features to provide options that can appease all levels of play when feasible.

Why does no one ever comprehend that such examples are comments upon the logic itself?

 

Your reference was to the ability to readily bypass a limitation (resting/replenishment), with the reasoning that "you can always just limit yourself if you want to."

 

What differentiates that scenario/limitation from ANY other scenario/limitation in the game? Your sole condition seems to be "If there's a limitation," with the option of "then just get rid of it, since the player can always self-limit." If your condition is more specific than that, then please, enlighten me. Because, if it is not, then there's no fallacy in applying your line of reasoning to any-and-all limitations in the entire game (HP, damage, to-hit chance, dialogue outcomes, etc.).

[Mr. Magniloquent]

In D&D campaigns I've played, resting only heals 1 HP + 1 HP/Constitution Modifier. Healing comes from spells limited in use per day, and consumable expensive items. Limiting rest to once every X hours, and the locations in which it can be safely done serve to conserve this otherwise unlimited ability. Without parameters, yes, resting makes many thing irrelevant. However, that is why the structure of resting matters so much.

 

Instead of ranting, what do you propose instead? Curative items have all the same complications. How accessible should they be? How potent? Are they consumable, or re-usable? Can they be used anywhere, at any time? What is too expensive or not expensive enough?

 

I disagree. Resting is an inclusive concept that is implicit with all aspects of rejuvenating and preparing. I find that it is a better and more easily controlled mechanism for recovery than items and magic which can quickly get out of proportion.

[Hormalakh]

I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it again.

 

Resting is an abstraction, so we will need it.

 

The issue of it being too restrictive or it minimizing strategic concerns and removing all difficulty can be solved based on player difficulty settings. Resting should be limited use for normal to hard difficulties (increased difficulty, decreased number of rests, being slightly more forgiving for normal difficulty) and unlimited in easy mode for those players who find the difficulty of the limited rest resource in the game too frustrating.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Hormalakh