So, about priests...

[cleric Nemir]

 

I wonder why "priests are restricted to invoking prayers that are aligned with their faith" when their powers are not granted by their god but "stem solely from within".

This was something I was wondering as well, as it seems a bit confusing.

 

My best guess at this point? Maybe they meant that, if a 6-year-old boy with a young, underdeveloped soul (as far as soul powers go... maybe he hasn't hit soul-puberty yet? *shrug*) worships the god of Awesome, he doesn't just get a big powerline from his god to himself that supplies him with 7,000,000 volts of Awesome. I think he gets the ability to channel his own soul's power into forms of Awesome, but his own soul is the power source, rather than the deity.

 

It's kind of like someone giving you a key to the library. You're still either literate or you're not, and which books you read and what knowledge you gain have nothing to do with the person who gave you the key.

 

Again, "stem solely from within" is confusing, as it seems to imply "the deity isn't really important here." *shrug*

 

Faith being seen as something not directly connected to deities is ok if it's viewed from the perspective of our real world,where I have faith that I will succeed in the tasks my job sets before me and strength of that faith pushes me towards completion. But we must be clear on what a faith in deity exactly grants us ingame. A potential to execute power beyond our character's own soul or a guiding force to unlock the potential that characters already had.

I may be mistaken, but isn't that essentially how Paladins function in P:E? If so, this would be problematic, in that Priests would quite literally just be Paladins who happen to be religious.

 

 

Ok,Lephys.Had to say something.

What is your point,exactly,besides to mock me? Is it that I am supposed to view you as some superior person that has all right to tell me how my view of a cleric should be? I came to understand that we are here allowed to debate our views and ideas against the existing ones,so please explain what gives you the right to insult me and my thoughts openly? There's a thread that debates the Obsidian's view of paladin. Every topic has a thread similar to this. So tell me,am I to just abandon all my ideas simply because Obsidian already said their word on this (or any) matter? Or - and this is a good one -because you hate/dislike me or whatever? By not simply provoking me - but insulting me,alone me,and everyone should by your logic stay calm and continue with posting their ideas and views,including the moderator,and the king of all - you.

I don't mind being simply provoked by you or anyone,but there's a line in all. Care to explain yourself?

Edited June 8, 2013 by cleric Nemir

[Fashion Mage]

I think you're misunderstanding him somehow. From what I can see, he didn't say anything particularly insulting. >.>;

 

I may be mistaken, but isn't that essentially how Paladins function in P:E? If so, this would be problematic, in that Priests would quite literally just be Paladins who happen to be religious.

 

I'm sticking with the "different faiths grant different flames" thing I mentioned earlier.

[Lephys]

-NULL-

Edited June 11, 2013 by Lephys

[Lephys]

 

I may be mistaken, but isn't that essentially how Paladins function in P:E? If so, this would be problematic, in that Priests would quite literally just be Paladins who happen to be religious.

 

Ok,Lephys.Had to say something.

What is your point,exactly,besides to mock me? Is it that I am supposed to view you as some superior person that has all right to tell me how my view of a cleric should be?

 

EDIT: Crap... I tried to fix a quote glitch and botched this whole response... haha. Here goes attempt #2:

 

o_o... Whoa whoa, there! I meant no provocation! Honest!

 

I just really seem to recall the description of Paladins in P:E revolving around them being more like leaders/warlords who are dedicated to their own capability and desire to effect change rather than drawing any kind of ability from elsewhere.

 

From the Eternity Wiki:

 

And though they are not always pledged to the service of a god or gods, paladins are so singularly focused on their chosen cause that their souls are continually creating a wellspring of spiritual energy from which they can blast groups of foes in their immediate vicinity.

So, if that's the case, then that VERY closely resembles the whole "faith simply in oneself, rather than in a deity" notion with a Priest. Therefore, that would seem to cause a logical, mechanical conflict between certain self-faith Priests and pretty much the entire Paladin class.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea. I just think that, the way they already have the Paladin set up, a deity-less Priest would pretty much be a Paladin, in how his soul-powers worked.

 

I realize people often infer much more than they actually say, nowadays, but I try to express my ideas and thoughts as literally as possible. If I'm not trying to be literal, then I try to be as obviously inferring as I can be (such as with sarcasm, etc.), so as to avoid confusion. So, I'm sorry that I failed to not seem like I was inferring things and provoking you. That was not my intention.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Lephys

[cleric Nemir]

Long time no see. Took  me some time to resurface this thread,but I needed to do it because I was wrong. I apologize to you,Lephys,for "attacking" you publicly out of my clouded judgement,misinterpretation that was caused due to both my personal problems that pressured me at the time and my level of comprehension of english. As of now,I will do my best to make sure this does not happen between me and another forum member,ever again. I am deeply sorry.

[Lephys]

Long time no see. Took  me some time to resurface this thread,but I needed to do it because I was wrong. I apologize to you,Lephys,for "attacking" you publicly out of my clouded judgement,misinterpretation that was caused due to both my personal problems that pressured me at the time and my level of comprehension of english. As of now,I will do my best to make sure this does not happen between me and another forum member,ever again. I am deeply sorry.

No worries. Truly. Intent is the biggest thing. Unless your intent is to simply be mean or attack people, there's nothing for you to feel bad about. You misunderstood me (and, admittedly, I'm easy to misunderstand, despite my best efforts), and you realized it, and meant no ill-will.

 

I appreciate the apology. And I am always willing to try to re-word things or explain them in different ways, and do not think ill of anyone who didn't get my meaning the first go. English is the only language I comprehend, so I have nothing but admiration for anyone who understands it (even imperfectly) on top of their first language, or even multiple other languages.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Now, that's the spirit, cleric Nemir!

 

 That felt appropriate, in a thread about priests...

[cleric Nemir]

Kind words,thanks you two. Had a rough couple of months,pulled trough. Anyway,consider yourselves blessed,fully healed and protected from evil   

 

I'm off to catch up on the threads that I missed. Feels like I'm about to read a book.

 

Also,I would like to say that ,regarding priests in PE,  I would still personally love that a priest description tells more of "a medium between a deity and the world" sort of thing,and how he/she heavily depends on that connection. The "Such men and women have found a divine link to their chosen deity, but their abilities stem solely from within." part sounds a bit wrong to me. I mean,of course the power comes from the priest when it comes to execution,but was the level of that power in his "soul" already there? To be more precise - does worshiping a deity allow priest's "soul" to be empowered by the deity,or the whole worship thing  is just a mean of focus for the priest to unlock the hidden power within? My idea of priest sounds like worshiping a deity actually gives bonus to your soul's power,in such a world. Otherwise I would find logical that deities have no actual effect on said world,and priests are no more than a fanatical group of extraordinary people that just use the deities names and mottoes to go about.   

[Nonek]

I quite like that part of the description, it leaves a definite ambiguity in the role that the deities are playing. They seem to definitely exist, and by the example we are shown in Saint Waidwen, are capable of granting immense power, but is that the whole story? Perhaps they are simply old souls, potent and wise who have ascended beyond the flesh, and their believers are fooling themselves. Perhaps the spark of the divine lies in every soul, and worship of these gods is as good as any other method? Or perhaps they are fallen angels, one step away from a higher purpose? It's pleasingly ambiguous to my sensibilities.

 

It also solves the earlier debate where Micamo argued that a player should never be punished for their lack of faith, and I argued that their was no real point in having faith then, that we should suffer consequences and adapt rather than be never anything less than empowered. I assume ones inherent faith can be redirected in the event of a crisis of faith, into some form of aseticism perhap? After an initial period of loss and powerlessness, which would only be logical after a lifetimes beliefs and dogma are shattered.

[cleric Nemir]

I quite like that part of the description, it leaves a definite ambiguity in the role that the deities are playing. They seem to definitely exist, and by the example we are shown in Saint Waidwen, are capable of granting immense power, but is that the whole story? Perhaps they are simply old souls, potent and wise who have ascended beyond the flesh, and their believers are fooling themselves. Perhaps the spark of the divine lies in every soul, and worship of these gods is as good as any other method? Or perhaps they are fallen angels, one step away from a higher purpose? It's pleasingly ambiguous to my sensibilities.

 

It also solves the earlier debate where Micamo argued that a player should never be punished for their lack of faith, and I argued that their was no real point in having faith then, that we should suffer consequences and adapt rather than be never anything less than empowered. I assume ones inherent faith can be redirected in the event of a crisis of faith, into some form of aseticism perhap? After an initial period of loss and powerlessness, which would only be logical after a lifetimes beliefs and dogma are shattered.

 

I admire the depth of possibilities that you present. If the game itself would end up so deep that my question can be answered for me within it,rather than in a wiki description,I would first proclaim it the ultimate role playing game I have ever. 

[Nonek]

Personally I would prefer that there are no answers anywhere, only a multitude of differing questions and beliefs. Such that there is no end to the road travelled, only a thousand different paths to choose. Then again I admit that i'm somewhat of a big wet flannel.

[Lephys]

Also,I would like to say that ,regarding priests in PE,  I would still personally love that a priest description tells more of "a medium between a deity and the world" sort of thing,and how he/she heavily depends on that connection. The "Such men and women have found a divine link to their chosen deity, but their abilities stem solely from within." part sounds a bit wrong to me. I mean,of course the power comes from the priest when it comes to execution,but was the level of that power in his "soul" already there? To be more precise - does worshiping a deity allow priest's "soul" to be empowered by the deity,or the whole worship thing  is just a mean of focus for the priest to unlock the hidden power within? My idea of priest sounds like worshiping a deity actually gives bonus to your soul's power,in such a world. Otherwise I would find logical that deities have no actual effect on said world,and priests are no more than a fanatical group of extraordinary people that just use the deities names and mottoes to go about.   

 

 

I think it's kind of like... your soul is a battery. And electricity is the result of a connection to a deity. So, the deity allows your soul to become charged with electricity. But then, you do what you wish with that electricity (coming from within YOU, from your battery, and not from the sky or heaven.)

 

In other words, your powers aren't your ability to somehow summon lightning or fury straight from a deity. You are directly generating and aiming the power. But, if not for the connection to a deity, you wouldn't have a source of electricity with which to charge your own battery.

 

So, whatever machine you decide to shape and operate using that electricity is up to you, in other words. The deity doesn't bestow upon you a copy machine, and say "YOU SHALL ONLY PRODUCE PAPER COPIES OF THINGS WITH YOUR POWER!". The deity just gives you the electricity, and then you build your own machines and use it to your own end (probably influenced, at least, by the properties and such of your deity, or you wouldn't be much of a priest, now would you? "I dedicate my life to the deity of protection! SO NOW I'LL JUST USE WRECKLESS EXPLOSIONS AND FIRE AS ALL MY SPELLS! MUAHAHAHAHA!")

 

 

I may not have it pegged perfectly, but I think it's something similar. I mean... if the priests powers/energy had absolutely NOTHING to do with the connection to the deity, then all other classes would simply have the ability to do all the same things WITHOUT being priests or worshipping any deities, but would simply choose not to.

 

So, at the very least, even if it's not something that's actually allowed by the deity (the metaphorical flow of electricity into the priest's soul battery), then it's something that doesn't happen without channeling all your soul potential into a connection with a deity. Kind of like forging your soul into a weapon, instead of some armor, or a brazier. You have fire and metal, but you have to pick the mold. You can't make an armor-sword-brazier. So, forging holy powers out of raw soul "ore" requires deity connection.

 

Heck, maybe some deity is all "Agh... THAT guy is using his abilities in MY name? I HATE that guy! How DARE he!", and actively tries to smite that priest to stop him from using said deity to beget his own priestly powers. *shrug*

 

Which... is kinda all what you already touched on, Nemir. Sorry. I was just kind of analyzing "out loud." 8P

 

I agree with you in that the nature of a Priest's powers (as opposed to some other class's powers) MUST rest upon a connection with a deity, in whatever fashion. Regardless of whether or not the deity actually bestows/generates the powers/energy or not.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Lephys