Weapon Familiarity, normal weapons and weapon upgrades

[Jarmo]

And bonuses for weapon type - that's basicly weapon proficiencies...specializations. They are general training, while familiarity is more specific. Best not let them on eachothers turf.

 

Depends on how weapons are handled in PE. I like the trickle down proficiency idea.

If you have basic attack skill that's the same for mace or a sword, it'd make sense to get familiarity with one if you use one.

 

Maybe if you get 2 familiarity points for longsword Eastern Wind, that'd trickle down as 1 point for other longswords, but nothing for scimitars.

 

And maybe weapon type feats would be in addition. If there even are weapon type feats, or feats.

Or maybe familiarity is a feat, but one that you gain automatically. 

[Lephys]

And bonuses for weapon type - that's basicly weapon proficiencies...specializations. They are general training, while familiarity is more specific. Best not let them on eachothers turf.

 

Hehe, probably so. Yeah, I thought of that (that it was basically already handled by feats and such for weapon proficiencies, etc.). I think that's probably why I hadn't thought of doing that with familiarity way earlier. Because the back of my mind knew it was pretty much already handled.

 

Still, I wouldn't be completely uninterested in their having a turf war, and seeing who wins. You know... in the purely conceptual phase (not actually implementing them both in the actual game and just seeing which one's better while the game sucks and is redundant).

 

Strictly in isolation, it could be interesting if such a thing were handled by Familiarity. However, it would be ridiculously tricky to allow for BOTH Familiarity AND feat-or-otherwise-based proficiencies to affect effectiveness with entire weapon categories. *shrug*... Maybe there could be weapon styles? So, a proficiency with Longswords would make you better with all Longswords, but then, you could get familiar with Elven Longswords (racial style was the first thing that popped into my head, purely for example), so that you could STILL use new/different longswords and retain the benefits of your Familiarity bonus, but you couldn't just use ANY new/different Longsword.

 

So, you'd have more of a layered effect. It'd be more easily manageable. I mean, in a way, you've got the same thing with buffs, or anything in which you have multiple sources of the same effect (stacks of the same bonus). A buff is balanced by the fact that it is temporary and/or lesser in effect than something that costs you more important/permanent resources, such as a feat. The same could go for Familiarity. The broader the benefit, the lesser it becomes. But, it's still enough to make nice little differences in different character builds/playthroughs.

 

Bah... I JUST realized that I somehow missed Jarmo's post. We're touching on the same thing, methinks.

[TrashMan]

I always considered weapon proficiency to be basic knowledge/weapon training.

 

Basicly moves/counter-moves, blocks...things and competent fighter should know. This is the type of knowledge you can apply to every weapon of the same type...and even when fighting agasint someone with that weapon.*

High-guard works with every sword (or at least is should).

 

Familiarity is more of a experience with a single weapon. It's weight..it's balance. You get better at performing those specific moves with it.

 

 

* this should actually be in. Get a bonus against opponents using a wepon you're familiar/trained with.

Another thing that would give fighters an edge over mages.

[Jarmo]

Basicly moves/counter-moves, blocks...things and competent fighter should know. This is the type of knowledge you can apply to every weapon of the same type...and even when fighting agasint someone with that weapon.*

 

* this should actually be in. Get a bonus against opponents using a wepon you're familiar/trained with.

Another thing that would give fighters an edge over mages.

 

 

This yes!

And I've long thought this is a big reason why there were a wild variety of weapons with their little quirks.

Both you and your opponent know swords, but you with your axe with a little hook on the reverse side can do that one surprise move that might give you the edge.

 

But basic proficiency, I'm not so sure. How exactly are things going to work in PE and how many skills there are?

Can't imagine every fighter was automatically very proficient with every weapon in the world, nevermind weapon focus but not everybody has even held a polehammer.

 

So you have used a sword and you have used a mace. You can quite readily pick up a warhammer and do pretty good,

but it won't even take that long before you start noticing the differences and adjusting your swings..

[jamoecw]

sorry for the big time delay in response, i was on a ship last month and didn't have good internet (or the time if i did).

 

@Jamoecw:

I'm sorry, I'm missing something. Diminishing returns are definitely cool, but I'm not seeing how they're specifically useful for familiarity (as opposed to being useful for nearly everything). Well, unless you substituted weapon "level" instead of character level. That might be something. In any case, I feel like you have a specific point to make, and I'm just not getting it. Am I just being slow?

diminishing returns are pretty cool, and useful in most situations.  as for the weapon level thing i was thinking off of a D&D type system where you tend not to swap weapons as frequently at higher levels, as well as staying at higher levels longer.  so at a higher level you would have been expected to have had your weapon longer, even with swapping out to newer and better ones along the way.

 

you'll notice also that diminishing returns can be scaled so that gaining the first bonus point or 2 is easy, but the getting the third or fourth is harder and requires choosing to stick with the weapon.  you'll also notice that as one levels the suffer from degradation, which results in one not being able to just cycle through weapons once and get the max bonus and keep it, over time it would go away, slowly at first, then faster (in exact the opposite rate of gaining it).  in fact in the 3.0 dungeon master guide it said that it should take about 1 year of adventuring to gain a level, maybe more at higher levels.

 

if one gained on average 2 points of familiarity a year then by the time you reach level 2 you'd have half of the familiarity bonus, if you then swapped out the weapon for a new shiny one you'd have an immediate negative impact, but by the time you reached level 3 you'd have 40% the total bonus.  hold onto it another level and you're back at half.

 

swapping weapons becomes a bigger issue at higher levels, and magic become a more attractive choice, just like in D&D.  as you can't really enhance your weapon in the middle of an adventure (at least not permanently) making the choice to wait becomes more attractive as well at higher levels.  all of this results in choices for the player, having efficient methods, and less efficient methods, but using that super duper sword when you first get it is pretty attractive if its bonus offsets the loss of familiarity.

 

swapping at regular intervals with diminishing returns results in less penalty overall, and gives a small bonus to those that put effort into keeping their weapon.  there are different ways of doing this, diminishing returns isn't exclusive.

[jamoecw]

Nearly any conscript soldier is going to want to use a crossbow, but a longbow is a clearly superior weapon in almost every way once you learn how to use it. It's simply better for the types of people who are going to be out saving the day. That's a terrible balance curve, though, and enforcing it in the game is just going to arbitrarily punish people who want to use crossbows. And for what? Greater immersion? Immersion is getting to play the character I want, thanks. 

actually crossbows are better in most cases, longbows are more versatile.

crossbow relative to longbow:

• same power
• easier to learn and train muscles
• easier to aim
• able to stay at the ready
• able to fire from a prone position, gaining better cover and accuracy
• cost based on prevalence of skilled craftsmen, more so than longbows, which require a long time and very specific wood (allows crossbows to be churned out faster and cheaper in a society that has had the technology a while).
• takes half again to double the time to load and fire compared to a longbow at full draw
• can't vary power on the fly in order to increase firing speed
• lacks stabilizing fins (fletchings) in order to boost accuracy at long ranges (reduced penetration at those ranges though)
• not able to use vastly longer ammunition

so running around a dungeon in real life with a crossbow yields a faster first shot, allows you to train other weapons for after the first shot is fired, allows you afford better armor/weapons (unless crossbows are a new technology, then it might be opposite).  out in the field it allows for better ambushes.  if ambushed though a longbow would be better (but better than good armor and shield).  if facing a peasant mob a longbow would be better, or if fighting unarmoured targets at long ranges.  and finally halfling longbows can use orcish (or some other oversized creatures) arrows in a pinch.

 

in europe crossbows were last used on the battlefield during WW1, and in asia during WW2.  china's crossbow technology was superior  and they lacked the infrastructure for mass production modern guns, which is why there is a discrepancy, but crossbows replaced longbows for a reason, and crossbows were replaced by guns for a reason.  when they coexisted they were different tools, which both had their uses.  reality generally has great balance, which is why it is usually a good starting point for balancing things, D&D had bows as being much better due to their romanticized nature, and pigeonholed them as vastly superior weapons, while slings, which is more specialized and has seen battlefield use past WW2, were greatly nerfed in order to fit the theme of romanticized middle ages.

 

 

thinking about lephys' post one could use familiarity cap as their skill (base attack bonus in D&D) resulting a potential doubling of their chance to hit bonus with familiarity, then make it so that weapons instead of granting a simple bonus to hit reduced the effect of a stat in the formula, resulting in say a sword that was easier to use a higher familiarity bonus, without being able to go over the cap (as it doesn't impart experience, unless it was sentient of course).  that way there is no simple +1 bonus, but one may get a +1 from a sword that was enchanted, possible more or less depending on their skill level and familiarity with the weapon.  doing so would lend itself to some creative enchantments, and be self regulating.

[jamoecw]

 

The question I find interesting is how such a mechanic would affect player behaviour.  Would I reload many times until my character gets the killing blow, to notch up the achievement on my weapon?  Should familiarity bonuses be applied to non-physical weapons and gear?  Do mages that focus on fire spells get a pyromanic bonus?  And what about the trusty slippers of sneaking?

An excellent post, Atreides. Your first question is one of the things we're trying to pinpoint the answer to. I think most of what has been mentioned would take care of the reloading-a-bunch-for-immediate-satisfactory-results thing. It's just a matter of making sure the familiarity progression isn't so long-term as to make it seem meaningless in the moment. You know, "I'd have to kill 500 things just to get a mild bonus? I'm not even sure I WANT to kill that many things! I don't even know how to weigh the benefits of that against the benefits of simply buying a new sword!"

 

As to the spell thing, I DO think something of that nature would rock! Mages always get neglected, it seems, heh. "This guy is like 80 times better with his sword. But your Firebolt? Still the exact same Firebolt. But, hey, you gained Fireball, which you can replace Firebolt with, so that all your allies in the area die, unless you want to drop the difficulty to 'non-friendly-fire' easy mode. u_u" (Exaggeration for effect, ).

 

And as for the Slippers of Sneaking? I think familiarity would only apply to something you actually wield. Passive bonuses to things you wear should probably be reserved for Talents (who until recently said "Ni!"... err, I mean, were called "feats.")

 

That kinda gets me thinking, though (some little specific phrase or another that you said sparked this, and my brain makes no sense, so... *shrug*)... What if familiarity with weapons were spread out across weapon type? Maybe that would get rid of some of the intensity of getting a new/different weapon. So, you'd get better with longswords by continuing to use longswords, even if you keep getting new ones. MAYHAPS you even still get slight extra bonuses for keeping the exact same particular weapon (this includes all the potential mechanics we've brought up, such as soul-imbuement/"enchantment" of the weapon as you go, or support for that via price reduction or increased ceiling, etc.). Then, on top of that, you'd still have physical customizations (make the blade more balanced, or the grip slightly different for your wielding style, etc.), AND whatever you so choose to do with enchantments/magic on weapons.

 

I definitely like the idea of some kind of familiarity/customization through use being implemented for magic (for any class whose main "weapon" will be their abilities/spells). Maybe for Mages, you could apply the familiarity thing to Grimoires? I'm not talking changing spell sets here (simply through use, however that spell-set thing is gonna work anyway...), but, just how you channel your energy through the tome in order to CAST the spells. Instead of attack speed and all that jazz, you could work with cast speed, projectile size, number of targets (weakening each "split" or separate projectile generated from a single spell that normally only produces one projectile for one target), after-effects, range, duration, etc. Maybe even spell behavior to a degree (such as "now bounces to nearby foes." This might fall under "after-effects.")

 

actually different shoes act different, sneaking in boots is different than sneaking in slippers.  adding familiarity for non combat items would be a slightly different animal than for combat items, but it could be done, just look at pretty much any game that gives experience to skills used rather than to a character pool.

 

many years ago i came up with a system based on category layers, such as: swinging weapons -> longswords -> falchion -> cusped falchion -> a specific cusped falchion.  that way changing weapons wasn't only as big of a penalty as the amount of categories changed.  without getting into unrelated mechanics of the system it works fine as long as the computer keeps track of the changes, and each category builds at the same time.  so picking up a sword would mean that you would be learning all 5 (or however many are in the game) categories at the same time, that way someone can start with a cheap sword and upgrade later without much penalty, or change to gameplay.  at first i started with build up the more general category until it was maxed, but that meant that later down the road players would have certain habits which worked counter to building up familiarity, so i changed it to build them at 1/5 the speed, but in all 5 categories simultaneously, the numbers at high levels were the same, but having come to terms with weapon familiarity early they didn't have as much of a problem with it.

 

as for spell casting, there was familiarity as well, and it meant that when you got a shiny new spell you would start with at least some knowledge on how to make use of it (assuming you had similar spells that you were familiar with), it also meant that you could focus on using a handful of spells and get really good at those, making your mage more or less specialized.  it was far more fluid than a feat based system like D&D.  the categories were overlapping ones, so magic missile would be:  evocation, force, verbal, somatic, auto hit (if one target)/multi-target (if hitting multiple targets).  if you got fireball then 3 out of 5 bonuses come into effect.  granted what these bonuses would do don't translate well into D&D magic.

[Lephys]

actually different shoes act different, sneaking in boots is different than sneaking in slippers.  adding familiarity for non combat items would be a slightly different animal than for combat items, but it could be done, just look at pretty much any game that gives experience to skills used rather than to a character pool.

Different shoes do act differently. But it's an entirely passive, static effect. If you give a master Rogue cymbal shoes, and he's sneaking down a stone corridor, he's going to make more noise than if you gave him cloth slippers. No amount of time spent with the cymbal shoes is going to change that, because you don't actively USE the shoes to sneak. You use your feet, and the shoes happen to effect your steps.

 

With a weapon, you're not just punching, but compensating for detrimental factors of the weapon. You're actually using the weapon, operating it in a different manner than you would an empty hand.

 

Can you become more familiar with the static effects of things? Sure. But that type of thing would most likely be single-tiered, and would take the place of proficiency feats, at best. With a weapon familiarity bonus, it's not that you're simply overcoming static detriments provided by the weapon. It's that you're actually using them to your advantage -- using them to even greater effect -- because of your visceral experience in wielding them.

 

Let me put it this way... if you're trying to sneak in plate boots, you're most likely just going to take them off, which would ALWAYS result in quieter steps. Whereas, you would never achieve a better effect with your sword by sheathing it, then attacking with your bare hand. The sword isn't simply affecting your abilities; it's PART of your abilities.

 

That's all I was getting at. It wouldn't be impossible to have some form of passive-item familiarity, but, like I said, in the context of the type of system we've been discussing, I don't see it fitting in super well, or providing much benefit by being handled in such a way for that matter.

 

 

I do like your multi-tiered familiarity system example, though. That's kind of along the lines of what I've been thinking. You know, you switch swords, and you're still more familiar with the general size/shape/effectiveness of swords than you are with axes, so you only lose a portion of your familiarity bonus with your previous weapon (only the difference between that weapon and your new one). I think handling it in a hierarchy like that organizes it pretty well, from a logistical standpoint.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Lephys

[jamoecw]

 

actually different shoes act different, sneaking in boots is different than sneaking in slippers.  adding familiarity for non combat items would be a slightly different animal than for combat items, but it could be done, just look at pretty much any game that gives experience to skills used rather than to a character pool.

Different shoes do act differently. But it's an entirely passive, static effect. If you give a master Rogue cymbal shoes, and he's sneaking down a stone corridor, he's going to make more noise than if you gave him cloth slippers. No amount of time spent with the cymbal shoes is going to change that, because you don't actively USE the shoes to sneak. You use your feet, and the shoes happen to effect your steps.

 

With a weapon, you're not just punching, but compensating for detrimental factors of the weapon. You're actually using the weapon, operating it in a different manner than you would an empty hand.

 

Can you become more familiar with the static effects of things? Sure. But that type of thing would most likely be single-tiered, and would take the place of proficiency feats, at best. With a weapon familiarity bonus, it's not that you're simply overcoming static detriments provided by the weapon. It's that you're actually using them to your advantage -- using them to even greater effect -- because of your visceral experience in wielding them.

 

Let me put it this way... if you're trying to sneak in plate boots, you're most likely just going to take them off, which would ALWAYS result in quieter steps. Whereas, you would never achieve a better effect with your sword by sheathing it, then attacking with your bare hand. The sword isn't simply affecting your abilities; it's PART of your abilities.

 

That's all I was getting at. It wouldn't be impossible to have some form of passive-item familiarity, but, like I said, in the context of the type of system we've been discussing, I don't see it fitting in super well, or providing much benefit by being handled in such a way for that matter.

 

 

I do like your multi-tiered familiarity system example, though. That's kind of along the lines of what I've been thinking. You know, you switch swords, and you're still more familiar with the general size/shape/effectiveness of swords than you are with axes, so you only lose a portion of your familiarity bonus with your previous weapon (only the difference between that weapon and your new one). I think handling it in a hierarchy like that organizes it pretty well, from a logistical standpoint.

here are plenty of references of people sneaking in plate boots, what they do is wrap the boots in cloth, and pack string or cloth in areas to keep them from clinking.  in boot camp and at A school i did a lot of marching in snow with boots that tend to squeak, so to get them to stop squeaking i shorten my stride and step differently.  when sneaking in between the toe sandals i roll my foot outside to in and front to back.  in sneakers i roll my foot inside and back to outside and front.  barefoot i roll from one side to the other evenly.

 

i am not sure if familiarity of non combat items would fit well in this game, but ya, knowing your equipment makes a big difference when trying to achieve an effect.

 

as for the layers of familiarity i think that 2 layers, 3 tops would work well for this game.

[Lephys]

here are plenty of references of people sneaking in plate boots, what they do is wrap the boots in cloth, and pack string or cloth in areas to keep them from clinking.  in boot camp and at A school i did a lot of marching in snow with boots that tend to squeak, so to get them to stop squeaking i shorten my stride and step differently.  when sneaking in between the toe sandals i roll my foot outside to in and front to back.  in sneakers i roll my foot inside and back to outside and front.  barefoot i roll from one side to the other evenly.

 

i am not sure if familiarity of non combat items would fit well in this game, but ya, knowing your equipment makes a big difference when trying to achieve an effect.

 

as for the layers of familiarity i think that 2 layers, 3 tops would work well for this game.

 

I understand, but it doesn't seem to really fit with the idea of a familiarity bonus, as with weapons. I mean, you know how to walk, and you know how to wear shoes, but the shoe causes an effect when trying to walk quietly (it produces noise), so, you either know how to sneak quietly with that shoe (how to "use" that shoe for stealth) or you don't. That's more a binary lack of proficiency, etc. The skill, or basic proficiency handles that. In other words, you don't use plate boots for a bit, then think "Hmm... I bet I could eliminate 20% of the noise by wrapping a tiny bit of cloth around it." Then, sneak a LITTLE more quietly, then after some more use say "Ahh, I bet if I wrap some MORE cloth around them, I could make them even QUIETER!"

 

That doesn't occur to any gradual extent. You don't get better at stepping gently and quietly based on how long you wear some shoes, as you do with swinging/blocking-with a weapon. Sneaking with plate boots is like fighting with a dull, rusty sword. Maybe you know how to sharpen the sword, or maybe you know a different fighting style that relies upon blunt attacks, or you switch to thrusts, etc, but you won't just fight with the sword and cut better with it because you get acquainted with it. It's an immediate, static effect, and you either possess the knowledge to compensate for it, or you don't.

 

That being said, I'm not trying to argue semantics here. Merely trying to convey my thoughts on the matter, as it pertains to designing such a system. So, if we were to use the tiered style of Familiarity (category, type, specific weapon, etc.), then the highest tier would essentially take the place of basic proficiency feats. So, you could have Familiarity with plate armor, as it pertains to your Sneak skill. But, you wouldn't gain more focused familiarity with a certain type of plate boot or something. You'd either account for the loudness of the metal, or you wouldn't.

[jamoecw]

 

here are plenty of references of people sneaking in plate boots, what they do is wrap the boots in cloth, and pack string or cloth in areas to keep them from clinking.  in boot camp and at A school i did a lot of marching in snow with boots that tend to squeak, so to get them to stop squeaking i shorten my stride and step differently.  when sneaking in between the toe sandals i roll my foot outside to in and front to back.  in sneakers i roll my foot inside and back to outside and front.  barefoot i roll from one side to the other evenly.

 

i am not sure if familiarity of non combat items would fit well in this game, but ya, knowing your equipment makes a big difference when trying to achieve an effect.

 

as for the layers of familiarity i think that 2 layers, 3 tops would work well for this game.

 

I understand, but it doesn't seem to really fit with the idea of a familiarity bonus, as with weapons. I mean, you know how to walk, and you know how to wear shoes, but the shoe causes an effect when trying to walk quietly (it produces noise), so, you either know how to sneak quietly with that shoe (how to "use" that shoe for stealth) or you don't. That's more a binary lack of proficiency, etc. The skill, or basic proficiency handles that. In other words, you don't use plate boots for a bit, then think "Hmm... I bet I could eliminate 20% of the noise by wrapping a tiny bit of cloth around it." Then, sneak a LITTLE more quietly, then after some more use say "Ahh, I bet if I wrap some MORE cloth around them, I could make them even QUIETER!"

 

That doesn't occur to any gradual extent. You don't get better at stepping gently and quietly based on how long you wear some shoes, as you do with swinging/blocking-with a weapon. Sneaking with plate boots is like fighting with a dull, rusty sword. Maybe you know how to sharpen the sword, or maybe you know a different fighting style that relies upon blunt attacks, or you switch to thrusts, etc, but you won't just fight with the sword and cut better with it because you get acquainted with it. It's an immediate, static effect, and you either possess the knowledge to compensate for it, or you don't.

 

That being said, I'm not trying to argue semantics here. Merely trying to convey my thoughts on the matter, as it pertains to designing such a system. So, if we were to use the tiered style of Familiarity (category, type, specific weapon, etc.), then the highest tier would essentially take the place of basic proficiency feats. So, you could have Familiarity with plate armor, as it pertains to your Sneak skill. But, you wouldn't gain more focused familiarity with a certain type of plate boot or something. You'd either account for the loudness of the metal, or you wouldn't.

again i don't think it fits in the game, but you wouldn't sneak better just because you wore the shoes for a time, you'd have to pay attention to what they were doing in regards to sneaking, and for at least some of it be trying to sneak in them.  you would eventually get accustomed to the changes necessary to sneaking in them:  walking different in them means developing the responses that you have for walking, but for this new type of walking with a respect for sneaking, or learning how to pack the boots better so that there is less clanking, afterall just because you pack it tight doesn't mean it won't get loose while walking, or learning to pack the soles differently, or learning to walking on cushions quickly and quietly.  thus most familiarity with items for sneaking would have to result from using them to sneak, afterall you don't get better at swinging a sword by keeping it in the scabbard.  i could see reducing movement speed penalties (not wile sneaking though) just by wearing items that have movement speed penalties, but again in a different game.

[Walsingham]

Just to quickly chime in, we're trying something very much like this in our tabletop WHFRP game at the moment.

 

Obvioulsy it's one feth of a lot easier to do by description but it's cool, anyway. 

 

I take the point that one sword could get boring, but that's only if it doesn't change in unexpected ways or mature with you. The example I'd use would be Gimli's axe. Isn't there a bit at Helm's Deep where it gains a big notch in the blade due to an orc's "iron collar"?

 

From our game we've got one fella with a simple sabre which just never seems to stop scoring one shot stabbing kills. Another fellah picked up a billhook sans shaft which he's been using as an improvised axe, and has just got re-shafted, albeit using oak and bronze.

 

~

 

As a complete aside, but it amuses us, our youngest player can't seem to hold on to the same sword for more than half a session.