On combat - item swapping and armor deterioration

[Bartimaeus]

Ignore all posts beyond the first page: I don't really care for the idea of item deterioration. I can't remember one game where I thought it meaningfully added to the game, (having played Diablo 2, Fallout 3/New Vegas, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Oblivion, etc.). Switching between weapons should probably give the enemies an attack of opportunity or some such. Light armor switching, (gloves, helmet, rings, amulet...probably not boots/belt, and most certainly not anything equipped on the torso), should cost all activity for that round, (or whatever it presumably ends up being), in addition to them being able to attack you during that round with a large attack chance bonus, (and giving them an initial attack of opportunity just in case they've already expended all of their attacks that round). Other item switching, (or perhaps even using at all?)...probably an attack of opportunity, (think items like the Horn of Blasting, potions, etc.). It won't stop item switching between particularly useful items, but it does discourage it without completely removing it, and, (I think, anyhow), provide a reasonable sense of realism.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Bartimaeus

[Nonek]

Sorry i'm not very au fait with internet terminology, half the abbreviations pass right over my head.

 

Well personally i'm hoping as I said to not engage in too much melee, because my characters will be wary of dying. As for the repair items, i'd like them to be temporary measures, in the field resources to be used in desperation (ideally only at campsites when one has time to affect repairs) and not half so effective as an apprentice trained master smith/leather worker what have you. I regard prepping my gear, readying myself for the tribulations ahead and gathering rumours and such to be almost as much fun as the dungeon/lair delving itself. Certainly a worthy thing to spend money on as it's keeping my virtual self alive, well maintained kit is the sign of a good adventurer.

 

I don't think innkeepers have medical knowledge to be able to estimate their clients injuries, they just rent rooms. I don't see why spells would consume gold, unless that's a material component I suppose. I hope poisons are utterly deadly or extremely debilitating, one of the finest dm tools you can use.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Nonek

[Lephys]

Sorry i'm not very au fait with internet terminology, half the abbreviations pass right over my head.

 

Well personally i'm hoping as I said to not engage in too much melee, because my characters will be wary of dying. As for the repair items, i'd like them to be temporary measures, in the field resources to be used in desperation (ideally only at campsites when one has time to affect repairs) and not half so effective as an apprentice trained master smith/leather worker what have you. I regard prepping my gear, readying myself for the tribulations ahead and gathering rumours and such to be almost as much fun as the dungeon/lair delving itself. Certainly a worthy thing to spend money on as it's keeping my virtual self alive, well maintained kit is the sign of a good adventurer.

 

I don't think innkeepers have medical knowledge to be able to estimate their clients injuries, they just rent rooms. I don't see why spells would consume gold, unless that's a material component I suppose. I hope poisons are utterly deadly or extremely debilitating, one of the finest dm tools you can use.

 

No worries. I miss out on a lot of things, too, haha.

 

I get that, and I'm not trying to attack your personal preferences regarding equipment repair/preparation, but, to be straight to the point, if I happened to enjoy/not-mind having to manage my characters' wounds, hydration, and bowel movements, I would still understand (from a purely unbiased, reasonable standpoint) why other players may not want that in the game at all.

 

Granted, you already suggested that maybe it should be included only in expert mode, but I just wanted to clarify that I believe your argument is taking into account preference in its ratings of the system, whereas mine is attempting to leave that factor out.

 

Poison isn't even really the best example, because engaging in combat encounters doesn't inherently increase your poison level. The usage of equipment is necessary, which is why it's somewhat mechanically silly to make its degradation a constant, and its maintenance necessary as well. It would be different if it were purely a bonus. Like... a mercenary. I could understand having to pay a mercenary for BONUS combat effectiveness, but if you don't use any equipment, you're pretty much screwed (unless, maybe, you drop it down to Easy? Either way, the balancing of combat challenges accounts for SOME amount of equipment.).

 

So, when it comes down to it, there's no strategy or decision to be made, other than "Do I want my equipment to not-suck, or do I want it to suck?" In other words, what do you get for your extra upkeep money? You gain the absence of the loss of something. You just break even again.

 

Anywho, as some kind of option, sure. I have nothing against the preference to play with that system. But, I definitely think it should be better moderated in Normal difficulty.

[Nonek]

I just regard it as necessary expense and maintenance, that to me happens to be part of the fun, armours gets worn over time when battered so I have it repaired. I certainly hope we're able to deal with wounds, vittles and such (though water closets only need to be included in game to represent their use - a matter of taste) that made New Vegas much more strategically interesting, and daunting.

[Lephys]

I suppose I just value the representation of degradation as a factor in combat (much like status effects and attack rolls, etc.), but I don't very much value the implementation of "go out of your way and spend extra money or suffer the consequences."

 

In the same manner, I value the representation of miles and miles of travel, but I don't want to actually have to spend 7 hours just to get from a town to a cave my party was asked to explore. It would still be cool, in a way, to actually experience perfectly realistic travel, but the time requirement of that travel does not fit with the desired goal of this type of video game. In the same manner, I value a system that abstractly accounts for the effects of food on your party members, but I don't want to spend 10 minutes controlling my characters' fork-wielding arms to make them eat a meal, and I don't need the number of calories they've taken in to be something I need to keep up with, or account for their metabolic rates, etc.

 

It's not that they couldn't code such things. It's that they would be unnecessarily time-consuming. The same line of reasoning, I think, sort of opposes "well, in real life, it costs lots of time and money for your equipment to not fall apart." In a game that rather abstractly represents oodles of things, you put in something that far-less abstractly represents wear-and-tear, and you've got a big thorn in the player's paw.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Lephys

[Nonek]

Oh I agree that it shouldn't get ridiculously complicated, just a nice immersive living world, I think Ultima 7 got it bang on in most areas except for travelling. We should have fast travel and random encounters.

[TrashMan]

Most weapons should be technicly undegredable/indestrucible by normal means. Swords and maces/axes made from qualtiy stell would require some basic mantainance in camp, but that can be abstracted away.

 

So it would very, very rare for a weapon to actually break in combat or get damaged in any meaningfull way to impact the battle...and if it did it would be mostly weapons with wooden parts.

 

If there are specific enemies/spells that can specificly target weapons (like corrosin/acid spells) then tehy might do some damage to a weapon

 

 

Armor on the other hand is much more difficult to repair and mantain.

The better the armor, the better it protects you but it's also harder to mantain - after several battles you will have to get your field plate to a blacksmith for proper mantainance.

Lether armors can be more easily mended on the stop.