Anime - the emotional rolercoaster.

[Malcador]

4 hours ago, majestic said:

I think that's supposed to be Sailor Pluto.

Ahh ok, wasn't too sure but struck me as Jupiter.

[Bartimaeus]

8 hours ago, KaineParker said:

I think I'm in the last stretch of season 1 at 44. Will either finish it tonight or play video games.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

It's kind of funny that even Tuxedo Kamen getting brainwashed didn't really change much, even evil he still shows up to throw roses and bail out Sailor Moon. I'm hoping that s2 brings a tighter focus for the story generally and villains specifically, because the Dark Kingdom's goals and strategies have been pretty god damn neurotic. Queen Beryl is just boring, even with the reveal of the past she's got the personality of a cardboard box and no style at all. Guess all shadowy background villains can't be DIO.

At least the Sailor gang consistently have wacky adventures. I don't mean to sound like I'm down on the show, I just have an easier time going into detail about what I don't like than doing the same for what I like

Looks like I have some **** to look forward to.

 

Queen Beryl is indeed a terrible villain. Incompetent and impotent, frequently wastes resources and minions, and is constantly taking out the anger of her own failures on her minions. Also, completely clueless. Pretty much completely contemptible without any redeeming values (in terms of likability and entertainment value) besides the fact her visual design and voice are pretty memorable. You may find the first arc of Sailor Moon R to have more likable villains (at least, I thought they were - still dumb like everyone else in this show, but they actually exist in the show alongside all the other characters rather than occupying an ethereal and secluded 'zone' where they never do anything and do attempt to do things themselves).

@majestic lmao, I forgot about that Ami picture, but to be honest, while that is definitely a thing, we the audience don't really see anything from it except that it's supposed to be embarrassing and hilarious, especially since it's framed to specifically have attention drawn towards it (and I do thinking framing matters a lot for these things). So I actually have less of a problem with that versus just casual exploitation that no note is made of at all.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

@majestic lmao, I forgot about that Ami picture, but to be honest, while that is definitely a thing, we the audience don't really see anything from it except that it's supposed to be embarrassing and hilarious, especially since it's framed to specifically have attention drawn towards it. So I actually have less of a problem with that versus just casual exploitation that no note is made of at all.

I was on the verge of making this post another essay, but then I deleted most of it, the wrote another essay, then deleted most of it.
 

Spoiler

 

There's a reason I'm getting this verbose (and potentially defensive) about the issue, and it's not because I liked watching Ami stuck to the window and looking at the unecessary amount of attention to detail that the drawing of her swimsuit got (and the decision to have the camera linger on her arse). Quite on the contrary. I felt bad for her - way back when and now.

Actually that's part of the reason why I love this show so much. I love the characters. Much of it because they're so relatable, or at least they were for me, regardless of their gender. I'm obviously not a girl, but much of what they go through can be applied 1:1 to early/mid 90ies nerds like me (doubly so for Ami, which... yeah, might explain my appreciation for everything that involved her, assuming that wasn't blatantly obvious anyway).

Except I was never lucky enough to have an Usagi in my life. Other nerd friends? Sure. But someone to stand up for us? Eh. Nah.

Suffice it to say that I understand - and agree - with the crticisism. Naoko Takeuchi is right, there was an unnecessary layer of sexualization in the first anime, and it was probably purely done because most of the people invovled with the anime were men. Whether they did that because they thought it necessary for ratings to sastify a demand for added male gaze in what was supposed to be an anime for girls or because they liked doing it (you said it yourself, it is from Japan) or because of something else like studio interference, I don't know.

The fact that it became more present over the course of the show speaks a bit more towards studio interference or rating reasons. For the most part it was avoided in Sailor Moon and Sailor Moon R, but it became bit more overt with S and SuperS. While you could blame it on the new part of the creative team in SuperS, the same thing can't be said for S. Maybe it was the price paid for including the "cousins" in the way they were.

The question that needs answering in this case is, does that detract from the message of the show? For me, the answer is a resounding no. For an early 90ies anime show, Sailor Moon was leaps and bounds ahead in terms of depicting feminism and inclusivity in a completely normal way, and in many ways, as ridiculous as that actually is now that I think of it, it still is. I'm actually hard pressed to come up with any mainstream example of where a lesbian relationship has been handled in the same "matter of course" style as Haruka and Michiru's has.

I know I probably keep trying to overexplain things with Star Trek Discovery, but a mid 90ies cartoon from Japan does a better job at depicting homosexuality in a normal and inclusive way that never feels at odds with either the characters or the story. It never feels like someone on the creative team ticked off the inclusivity virtue signalling checkbox that reads "gay", just right below "token black guy" and "token asian person".

Is that really it? Far we've come in the past thirty years then.

Spoiler

PS: Sailor Moon Sailor Stars actually includes transsexual characters. Of a sort. The Sailor Starlights - in other words, the titular characters that were added for the season - are actually a group of men that transform into women to fight.

 

I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but it's been a long time since I got my grubby hands on someone who just started watching Sailor Moon. Feels like old times. Thanks.

[Bartimaeus]

Spoiler

@majestic

It's cool, . Your reasoning for being 'defensive'...is actually the same as mine. I love the show, I love the characters - which is why I don't like seeing them unnecessarily sullied, it just feels wrong. I don't want to see even a glimpse of Usagi's underwear - not unless there's a reasonable in-universe explanation for it that doesn't feel like it was written specifically for the purpose of it happening, or unless it's framed in a justifiable manner. One of my favorite anime movies - my avatar, Perfect Blue - is highly exploitative of the main character...but it's framed in such a way you're supposed to feel horror and disgust on her behalf for the awful things she has to do to make it in her industry and then what she is further subjected to as a result, and so it actually works as a criticism of the industry while making perfect sense in-universe, a good combination. It's a movie I've only seen once, and it will probably stay that way for a long while because of how gross and awful I found it. But that's why I'm more okay with the particular shot of Ami you linked, as it's very obviously framed to be funny and embarrassing first and foremost rather than simply exploitative (even if it could very easily be interpreted to be both), whereas I'm less okay with stuff where there's no framing to support other possible reasonable explanations, and is clearly meant to only be casually exploitative.

But as you said, this is a 90s anime, it's remarkable that they were so restrained...but I'm also coming from a different background, one more rooted in Western cartoons while having empathetically rejected anime for literal decades on various grounds, where...yeah, that stuff just doesn't jive with me. I have to forgive it because I love the characters, but I'm going to remember it and the fact that, even in a show like this, literally made for and to empower young girls, where it serves absolutely no reasonable purpose...you still couldn't get away from it. It's a little sad and disheartening, even if the show does so much right at the same time. I know these are totally fictional characters and so none of it really matters (it's not like anybody was actually being exploited in the making of this series...presumably), and I should really just learn to ignore these things, but I'm just not that kind of person, and it's really emblematic of problems with not just Japanese media, but worldwide media. Oh well.

(e): Oh, also, Michiru and Haruka are a great, non-pandering, non-embarrassing, well-framed, and seemingly comfortable (in the sense that they are who they are, and it's cool and they feel absolutely no need to be repeatedly shouting it from the rooftops or have it be the only notable thing really defining them like so much fraudulently pro-progressive Western media) couple. It's very nice and they don't really feel even the least bit out of place, which is shocking for two characters who are new to the cast in a third season where it seems like it should be a big part of their characters (and from how their initial reveal went, you would assume it was going to be)...but isn't really, . Only Steven Universe with its virtually all-but-the-protagonist-and-his-dad-female cast compares in this sense (if you've never seen it, I genuinely think you would very much enjoy it based on what I know you like and respect about Sailor Moon, since so much of it is the same stuff that I like about both; Sailor Moon by far feels like the closest thing I've watched to it, which is what further makes Sailor Moon special to me, and actually has given me great hope where I previously had little to none that I'll be able to continue to find the absolutely lovable characters and character dynamics/interactions that I adore in the future).

Spoiler

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I finished seaon 1 last night and started s2 (or R I guess) because of my frequent insomnia kicked and nothing else appealed.

Queen Beryl turning into an evil flower after getting killed by a rose was the closest she got to being interesting, but was still a let down. From what I read the manga and Crystal had a better take, but Crystal is too ugly to watch. CGI is probably one of the worst things to happen to animation.

The Makai Tree and the kids pretending to be siblings are already a step up, if only because they have a clearer reason to harvest energy. That they're basically horny teens who either are trying to cheat on each other or are in an open relationship is really funny to me, and so far at least it seems they're less malicious if only because they stress their energy harvesting is non-lethal. The monsters are still really forgettable though.

I guess I'll see how it goes, and will soon join yall in being bothered about creepiness that comes with having only fellas write a TV show for girls.

This has been a really fun ride and I would have never got on if it wasn't for this forum.

[Bartimaeus]

The Makai Tree arc was really funny (but actually has even worse minions than season 1 that I actually complained about at the time when I was watching early R - I do not like Pokemon-style monsters that just shout their own names over and over...thankfully, that particular type does pass). I'll no doubt find it even funnier knowing how everything works out when I re-watch the show years in the future.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Spoiler

But as you said, this is a 90s anime, it's remarkable that they were so restrained...but I'm also coming from a different background, one more rooted in Western cartoons while having empathetically rejected anime for literal decades on various grounds, where...yeah, that stuff just doesn't jive with me. I have to forgive it because I love the characters, but I'm going to remember it and the fact that, even in a show like this, literally made for and to empower young girls, where it serves absolutely no reasonable purpose...you still couldn't get away from it. It's a little sad and disheartening, even if the show does so much right at the same time. I know these are totally fictional characters and so none of it really matters (it's not like anybody was actually being exploited in the making of this series...presumably), and I should really just learn to ignore these things, but I'm just not that kind of person, and it's really emblematic of problems with not just Japanese media, but worldwide media. Oh well.

 

Spoiler

 

When it comes to the upskirt shots in the show I'm also constantly second guessing myself. While transformed, they're all wearing white leotards, so what's drawn on the screen isn't exactly underwear in a regular sense when it happens, i.e. during Sailor Mars' and Sailor Venus' jumping attacks. If the show had skipped the skirts, then what? How much of the sexualization aspect of a skirt drawn around a leotard comes from the intention, how much is intrinsic, and how much does the action that is happening on screen affect what was meant by the artist? What I mean here is, put a group of dancers wearing nothing but leotards in a ballett and it's fine, put them in a can-can performance and it is instantly sexualized.

There's no need to draw any of the characters like that, so we can easily attribute this to the guys on the team doing it on purpose for the benefit of the teenage boys watching, but if context matters (and it clearly does), are any upskirt shots during action scenes really only there for unnecessary sexualization? Should I let that bother me, then, or not? I... really don't know. I try not to let it bother me because the rest of the show is so clearly empowering, it works most of the time.

However, as such, shots like Ami being pressed aginst the window with an uncomfortable amount of time spent lingering on her behind just to make sure that you see how the artist made the swimsuit crease properly against her body contours, ugh, because that is really, really pure male gaze pandering and a bit more bothersome than an upskirt to me, but I also come from a different cultural background in regards to nudity and sexual taboo as a whole (at least so I persume, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). To break out a tired old argument, only a minority (a vocal one, anyway, bust still) here would have given a flying f*ck about Janet Jackson's wardrobe "malfunction" at the Superbowl, and due to that a nipple slip isn't even worth doing for the attention (in a fun inversion then, it would never have happened - you can't provoke with something that's simply not seen as provocation). Most of the attention back then was focused on how weirdly overblown the reaction to it was (and you can see more and pretty breasts in regular commercials, shower gel ads have showering people in them, and yes, also men, or you just walk outside to see topless sunbathing, I mean, when it is summer at least *shrug*).

That's a can of worms I don't really want to open in this thread though, but that season one shot of Ami falling over and Makoto being embarrassed annoys me not because of the framing, but of the intention behind it. It is meant as a joke, but for me there's nothing inherently funny about it - nor should there be anything inherently embarassing for Makoto in this situation. I mean she does have a mirror at home, and Ami is still wearing her sailor one piece with a decorative skirt, so... what?

But, and take this as a caveat, this comes from someone who has been forced to sit through the first three American Pie movies with his friends and laughed once during all three films, and that's when Noah Levenstein tells Michelle that his son shaving his pubic hair for her is a big deal because he's Jewish. Nobody else laughed, but I thought it was clever, but that probably wasn't even an intentional reference to the importance of hair for (orthodox) Jews and full body shaving used as a means to demean and strip Jews of their dignity in concentration camps - and if it was, I'm sure it was ad-libbed by Eugen Levy and wasn't in the script.

 

Anyway, I'm glad you're trying to not let it bother you. Even though I absolutely hate the term (not as much as X-Phile though), the world can always use another Moonie.

Edited February 5, 2021 by majestic

[Bartimaeus]

Spoiler

The shot of Ami falling over worked for me because I was immediately embarrassed, shook my head, facepalmed, laughed, and then later reflected that, yeah, embarrassing goofs like that should honestly probably happen more to superheroes if we're being honest...but it's okay that it doesn't, our heroes are supposed to be heroes after all (and not clumsy clowns). I assumed that was more or less the intended reaction, or at least a plausible reaction that made it less bizarre/notable for me. I'll remind you once again that this show was specifically designed with the prudish Alabama TV market in mind, . In comparison to you, I am actually an equal opportunity prude, as I very much dislike seeing even men without their shirts on. With relatively reasonable cause/explanation/framing (whether it's real life or media), nudity is not a big deal to me - without it, I am the type that will judge thee harshly forevermore.

"Are any upskirt shots during action scenes really only there for unnecessary sexualization?" Not necessarily, which is why I specifically take issue to the few times something has plainly, obviously seemed out of place without reasonable explanation, which, as I mentioned some posts ago, has only been a very few incidents indeed - at least for our protagonists. The random minions...well, in season 3, we've got lady villains using their breasts and thighs as soul-violating laser guns more or less, but I'm not that concerned about random minions that are sure to be vaporized for their crimes against our heroes (and note how they ARE inevitably going to be vaporized...although I guess the freaking weirdo creeps from season 4 aren't ever, which seems like a major framing misstep after many literally unforgivable - UNFORGIVABLE! - crimes).

Oh man, I've experienced the same alienation you have when watching something irredeemably stupid and unfunny. I've unfortunately been subjected to way too many episodes of a few poor shows like The Big Bang Theory, and consistently, I would not ever laugh when I was apparently supposed to - you know, during the ultra-obvious, ultra-telegraphed lame jokes that are a hallmark of the series...and it would be instead during just a few moments that apparently weren't supposed to be jokes, didn't get the garbage laugh-track interrupting the flow of dialogue, that nobody else would laugh for that would instead make me laugh. I was eventually asked to stop watching this show because I wasn't "watching it right", to which I was more than happy to oblige. It clearly wasn't meant to be, .

Moonie is a really bad term. I can't think of anything better that fits, though, which is probably why it stuck.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

I do not like Pokemon-style monsters that just shout their own names over and over

Let's not be unfair to pokemon now, their designs are usually more memorable.

I generally dislike most fandom names, I'd rather just say I'm a fan of [whatever] than something like Mooney.

Edited February 5, 2021 by KaineParker

[Bartimaeus]

I assume you meant to say "dislike"? I'm the same way - even for some of my biggest media loyalties, I've never adopted a particular label from them to describe myself as, .

Edited February 5, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I did, posting from the phone is not as accurate.

[majestic]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

Spoiler

"Are any upskirt shots during action scenes really only there for unnecessary sexualization?" Not necessarily, which is why I specifically take issue to the few times something has plainly, obviously seemed out of place without reasonable explanation, which, as I mentioned some posts ago, has only been a very few incidents indeed - at least for our protagonists. The random minions...well, in season 3, we've got lady villains using their breasts and thighs as soul-violating laser guns more or less, but I'm not that concerned about random minions that are sure to be vaporized for their crimes against our heroes (and note how they ARE inevitably going to be vaporized...although I guess the freaking weirdo creeps from season 4 aren't ever, which seems like a major framing misstep after many literally unforgivable - UNFORGIVABLE! - crimes).

 

Spoiler

Minor spoiler: This will stop being the go-to method of extracting pure heart crystals once Kaorinite is replaced. I'm not sure if that was planned from the start or that they realized they'll be hard pressed to come up with a full season's worth of body parts to put black star tattoos on, but it also has the added benefit of keeping things fresh.

I'm also thinking about how to come up with a way to watch SuperS episodes without making the redemption arc for the Amazon Trio look like the bad idea it was. If you really skip all the filler and even two of the story episodes that'll give one assault scene to each of the three and skips most of the terrible banter between them. No, wait, I think Tiger's-Eye will get two.

You'd "miss out" on the episode where Creepasus gives Chibi-Usa the Palantír to spy on her and the episode where he gives the girls their new transformation, uhm, rods (god damn it SuperS, that used to be a fun joke in S and now it's terrible). They don't gain any new powers until later in the season anyway, but most importantly it will skip Fish-Eye's episode where he goes after a boy young enough to ask Chibi-Usa out without it being awkward (oh, spoiler, Chibi-Usa refuses because she's way more into Creepasus' golden horn).

It's unlikely that it'll make the redemption deserved or worthwhile, but at least it wouldn't be this out of place. I mean, screw you Tiger's-Eye. You should be skinned and used as rug for violating Makoto like that.

Now for the part that I can post without spoilers. I've watched the entire run of The Big Bang Theory (but not because I enjoyed it but because my brain forced me to). But I'll make a separate post for this, I think, potentially in the actual TV thread.

 

[majestic]

First episode after the change from the Amazon Trio to the Amazoness Quartett heavily features Ami and her self-esteem issues. This is another episode I remembered after beginning to watch it. So does that bode well? We'll see...
 

Spoiler

 

After I watched the episode I actually went ahead and took a look at a fan translation of the according manga chapter, just for comparison. I have a feeling that the anime at some point overtook the manga in terms of character growth, but I can't be sure. Aside from knowing that the showrunners and Naoko Takeuchi didn't see eye to eye on issues I don't know if any creative exchange happened like in Game of Thrones where GRRM contributed to the first four seasons and told the showrunners of his plans for the yet unreleased books (unreleased 10 years ago and they still are, sigh). 

It's strange to see Ami going back to seeing similar illusions (she doesn't in the anime episode in SuperS) as she did in her Sailor Moon R episode and that annoying bickering between Usagi and Chibi-Usa about Mamoru's affection (and him being somewhat annoyed by it) is also in the manga, apparently, which is something that bothered me the entire run of SuperS because it feels so out of place after Sailor Moon S.

Fish-Eye causes her to see scenes that never happened, like her mother bringing home a lover and derisively saying that no real daughter of hers would only live to study, so they shouldn't care that she's not asleep. She then sees her father who tells her not to get close to him because she's only weighing him down, and Mamoru, Usagi and Chibi-Usa as a happy family, saying the don't need anyone else. Fish-Eye then traps her in the dream mirror where Ami wants to fall asleep, only to be called to action by a reflection, an echo of her Senshi self. This happens at a time when Ami and the others have lost their ability to transform. She gains her powers back, and an upgrade, fights back, Sailor Moon shows up and they obliterate Fish-Eye (good on them!).

In the anime, her super transformation is given by Creepasus, but she only gets her new attack when she reflects on how she can't help her friends (and the random but way better created victim of the week) 10 or so epsides later.

Anyway, in the episode Ami is the loveable nerd that she is, doing one of the most nerdy things available in the early 90ies, using her laptop to listen to some music she downloaded from a bulletin board and writing into her paper notebook. The other girls show up and immediately start violating her privacy by reading her notebook because Ami being lost in a daydream HAS to be interesting.

They find out that she has this online-crush on the composer who she has been talking on the forum to but doesn't know otherwise. Usagi and Minako have a hilarious talk where both are proven to be completely clueless about computers. When Ami is back home she gets a letter from her father (who is absent because he left the family early in her life, something I just learned from the manga chapter, from the show I only knew that it was just Ami and her mother who barely has any time for her due to being a doctor).

It is a beautiful drawing of a mountain lake, and Ami resolves that since her father is a gifted artist, she might as well try to write lyrics for the composer's piece. She's fangirling so hard it made her all the more lovable in an instant. She also writes the composer a message about her friends.

The girls meet at the Crown, as is their wont, and Ami shows the lyrics to her friends, and Rei ribs on Usagi when she reads them, telling her that it's a waste because she too dum-dum to appreciate them anyway. Hey I actually missed that. It feels so right and famliar, somehow. Since this is a Sailor Moon episode the girls of course stumble onto the composer of the song Ami downloaded, who also happens to be the Amazoness Quartet's victim of the week.

They wait for the composer at the back door and talk to him when he leaves. I've actually done that before too. I waited for Nightwish after a concert, together with a friend of mine and his family. We got our tickets autographed and took some pictures. I mean, that was before these things were called "selfies" and done with your phone. Yeah, 2004 or so.

Ami is prodded into talking to him (blushing all the time, and trying hard to not put her foot in her mouth), and he is immediately thrilled to finally make the acquaintance of Ami - and her friends that she apparently talked to him about. A lot. The girls are understandably not entirely pleased about this revelation. They join him at his music school and Ami tries to show him her lyrics, and they learn that the composer has a beautfil partner. Minako immediately muses that he already has a girlfriend, mit Makoto makes her shut up. Usagi is all supportive, but Ami breaks down, tells him that she needs to rewrite them and runs away.

Usagi apologizes and they prepare to run after her, and the composer is attacked by VesVes, one of the quartet. Diana (as in Artemis' and Luna's daughter from the future and Chibi-Usa's friend) locates Ami and tells her to come help. Meanwhile the four girls confront VesVes who already ascertained that - suprise - the composer does indeed not house Creepasus. VesVes summons one of the monsters (called Lemures, as in the spirits of the restless dead, only they're mostly circus themed) and Ami shows up - untransformed yet.

VesVes traps them all in the composer's computer, the one he's most likely using to talk with Ami. They're stuck in an energy field (yeah, just like Usagi and Minako the creative team of the show doesn't know a lot about computers ) and Ami tries to break through but falls unconscious.

She's seen falling towards the mountain lake from her father's picture, and just like in the manga at this point she's naked. I mean, not anatomically correct naked obviously, but just as silhouettey as they are in the transformation seqeunces but with her regular skin color, and is in this scene supposed to represent her reflecting upon herself, stripped of everything else as she hovers over the lake's calm surface. She talks to her Senshi echo / representation of her inner strength about her feelings and gains her power upgrade, transforms into Super Sailor Mercury, uses her new attack and they break out of the computer, smash the monster to bits and VesVes hightails out of the room.

Ami finally has the courage to show her lyrics to the composer, who loves them, with Usagi congratulating her. It's an incredibly tender moment that was sorely missing from the rest of this season.

Reading that manga chapter helped a good deal. It made no sense that Ami would wait with her transformation, she'd transform, like the others, simply after she learned that the composer was attacked (I already knew that the nakedness in this scene was taken directly from Naoko Takeuchi's work, at this point I'm not sure, have I mentioned that one of the guys in my class back when we watched Sailor Moon was an avid otaku? Yeah, I don't think the word weeaboo existed back in '98, although otaku has a similar derogatory meaning).

It makes more sense if Ami at this point was unable to transform, like Sailor Moon early in Sailor Moon S. She also transform right with VesVes looking at her (in the manga VesVes knows her identity and sends Fish-Eye to deal with her in the first place), so I can't help but wonder what went wrong in the adaptation. It looks like at some point in the creative process it was decided that Creepasus would give the girls the ability to transform into their super forms earlier (and they never use the super attacks until they actually gain them much later in the show). Can't even argue that the scene was kept in its current form simply because Ami is nude in it, the framing is completely innocent and fits perfectly with the imagery of her floating above a still lake and pondering her feelings, there's a reason this scene exists in a very similar way in the manga.*

Anyway, that was... a really good episode, actually, if one can ignore the continuity issue. Maybe SuperS started out as being more faithful to the manga and then changed at some point. There are episodes in SuperS where Ami, Rei, Minako and Makoto don't show up at all, or never showed up to fight. It would make more sense if they were unable to actually help with the fighting at this point. Maybe they were supposed to get back their transformation powers while fighting the Amazon Trio just like in the manga.

*For this entire sequence, manga or anime, being familiar with Japanese culture and mythological associations helps a bit, Mercury is associated with water, which is a mirroring surface when calm, i.e. standing for self-reflection, hence all the shots of Ami standing on a bridge or at a lake when thinking about herself, and being a natural swimmer like Neptune, while nudity represents a state of purity, which is also the reason why they're naked during their transformation scenes.

edit:

Final question of the day, is the mind rape Fish-Eye puts Ami through in the manga worse than what Ami goes through in her dream mirror violation sequence in this season's beach episode? In the anime it was Tiger's-Eye who did that, the creep that always squeaks when violating his victims, but the mental torture she went through in the manga isn't much better. Poor Ami.

 

Holy crap, that became even longer than the pseudo-essay I wrote the last time when I said I won't do that again.

Watchable epsiodes streak has now increased to 4. This was the first one in the season that actually felt like Sailor Moon though, in terms of being a mixture of fun and serious and the girls interacting with each other in both completely sensible and hilarious ways. Plus no Creepasus, that's always good. I mean, except for the attack sequence. Can't have Usagi shoot her attack at the monster without Chibi-Usa metaphorically rubbing Creepasus' horn first.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well they've finally figured out some new attacks. I'm going through Sailor Moon R a lot faster than I'd like because there's really nothing else interesting to watch in digestible bits and I'm having a hard time getting into playing games. At least I haven't hit any really creepy bits yet, maybe those will get me to slow down.

[Bartimaeus]

4 hours ago, majestic said:

Holy crap, that became even longer than the pseudo-essay I wrote the last time when I said I won't do that again.

Watchable epsiodes streak has now increased to 4. This was the first one in the season that actually felt like Sailor Moon though, in terms of being a mixture of fun and serious and the girls interacting with each other in both completely sensible and hilarious ways. Plus no Creepasus, that's always good. I mean, except for the attack sequence. Can't have Usagi shoot her attack at the monster without Chibi-Usa metaphorically rubbing Creepasus' horn first.

I read your entire post, and the good news is that I had my brain in don't-remember mode and already forgot 95% of what you said, so one of the actually good episodes of SuperS remains unspoiled, . Actually, I was also going to ask about how close SuperS follows the manga - thought there might be a Game of Thrones situation where the writers are good at adapting material, but not so good at coming up with brand new material...but it seems like from what you've said, SuperS doesn't deviate *that* far from the manga, though you'd probably actually have to read it at length to know for sure.

@KaineParker R stays pretty normal in that sense, I think. It's S where it starts getting a little wackier, and then it's SuperS where it blasts off to the moon, . The good news is S is possibly the best season of the show so it's forgivable - FORGIVABLE! - whereas in SuperS...well...

Edited February 6, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

4 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Actually, I was also going to ask about how close SuperS follows the manga - thought there might be a Game of Thrones situation where the writers are good at adapting material, but not so good at coming up with brand new material...but it seems like from what you've said, SuperS doesn't deviate *that* far from the manga, though you'd probably actually have to read it at length to know for sure.

I can't make any accurate statement by reading one chapter out of 11 to be honest. The storyline was definitey different (i.e. the enemy trio that survives for 22 episodes in SuperS lasts one fight each in the manga, and at least for Fish-Eye was only a handful of pages long), the themes on the other hand weren't, apparently. Which makes this all the more confusing.

Maybe I'll go read the entire dream arc, it's only 11 chapters anyway, but reading a manga takes some measure of concentration when you're not doing it all the time which I, to be honest, don't - I'm not an avid comic/graphical novel reader (although I did read A Dame To Kill For in an effort to appreciate Sin City more, which people close to me found terrific, with me being the odd one out, as usual... sigh), let alone used to reading from right to left (and from top to bottom in columns, but that's true for Western comics just as well).

Spoiler has a how-to/reading direction explanation picture, not an actual spoiler.

Spoiler

It's not so bad for Sailor Moon because it seems to have a relatively simple koma (frame/panel) layout but it still takes some conscious effort to get the reading direction right, and combined with having to read on my gaming screen that means it's incredibly taxing.

edit:
 

Spoiler

 

Okay, here we creep. I mean, I just started the first chapter of the Dream Act and it has Chibi-Usa musing that she wants to be a grown-up so that Mamoru looks at her the way she wants (i.e. as a potential partner instead of a kid and his future daughter). Erm. Oh, and Chibi-Usa and Usagi have a sleepover at Mamoru's place, she even lied to her mother about it by telling her she stays with Makoto. Heh. Chibi-Usa also watches Usagi sleeping and wants to look more like her, taller, slender, ehm. Yeah. Oooookay.

Yes. So that happened. Okay, going through an Electra/Oedipus complex phase in childhood is all normal ("when I grow up, I want to marry mama/papa"), but that happens well before children have any sort of sexual context for love and companionship. *headscratch*

Caveat: It is a fan translation. It might not accurately translate the intentions of the author. I'll stick to translation error for now. Oh dear Japan...

edit 2:

Spoiler

Oh, and the Amazoness Quartet's appearance in the anime is taken directly from the manga too. Just in case you'll end up wondering why the girls barely wear anything. Altough this does make some sense in the setting (they are circus performers, after all).

edit 3:

Spoiler

So the end of the first chapter of the Dream arc has Chibi-Usa grow up and Usagi turning back into a child, granting them both their wish from before. At first I thought they switched bodies, but luckily it just looked that way. Phew. That would have been super creepy given the context. No, wait, Ami just showed up and confirmed that they actually switched bodies.

Please, hand me the brain bleach. Please don't make this go where it seems to be going. Ugh, why is Mamoru unconscious at the moment? No, no, no... please no.

edit 4:

Okay so that ended in the least creepy way possible, with Chibi-Usa pretending to be Usagi back at home and Mamoru spending a night with his transformed girlfriend, fending off her advances (and Usagi being annoyed that Chibi-Usa always gets in the way of her relationship with Mamoru, even when she's not around).

Eh, okay. The only reason this seems to have been in the manga ways to make Chibi-Usa feel useless when they switch back to their old bodies. Not including this in the anime? Gooood choice guys.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by majestic

[Bartimaeus]

lmao that could've been the worst, glad it wasn't

I've only ever read one manga before, and that was the original Dragon Ball (I discovered that simply reading the manga was a lot less painful compared to actually watching the show, ). That was an experience.

(e):

Spoiler

Sailor Body Attack!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/n31pp352f26keui/Eh3pcde4MS.mp4

Hilariously, it has its own wiki page...and mentions it's only done the one time against Koan, so technically, this second time against the Professor's assistant isn't canon but something they just did for fun in the dub.

I'm gonna guess that Sailor Moon probably has a Pure Heart Talisman. The way that episode ended surely gave a strong indication it's going to be the case. The other two...could logically be Michiru and Haruka, because I'm already reasonably sure that none of the other main Pretty Guardians do, but I'm not banking on it just yet. If it's somebody else that the audience is supposed to know, I can't logically deduce whom, since some of the other best options have already been effectively disproven. Really, the next best I can think of would be Mamoru, and then maybe Chibi-Usa, and there would actually be a sense to that given that all three are obviously directly connected...only, Mamoru has barely appeared in this season so far so that would be weird with no build-up, and Chibi-Usa isn't here at all and I wasn't under the impression she reappears anytime soon...so, I'm not sure how that's going to work out.

(e): Now that I think about it, it being Michiru and Haruka would definitely be the most logical given their near-psychopathic obsession with finding them - it would be a logical way for them to either defuse their need to obtain them, make it so they don't actually have to make anybody die to get them (it would not be great for them as characters to be involved in something like that, especially since the show is clearly trying to make them walk the line between heroes and antiheroes), and/or make them try to find a different solution to whatever malevolent force is coming, maybe one that involves working directly with the third Pure Heart Talisman (which is presumably Usagi)...as opposed to leaving them for dead after ripping their souls out. So yeah, I guess those three all make the most sense, .

(e): And now that I think about it, I can't help but notice that Michiru was the first person assaulted in this season by the Professor that *didn't* get their Pure Heart Crystal ripped out. Hmm, how weird! Seems more and more logical that it has to be those three.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

This is kind of fun. Really reminds me of the good old times. And no, I'm not really going to confirm or deny any of that (not even in the spoilers). I mean, yeah, it's not like you're one quick google away from being able to look it up yourself if you really want to though.

Spoiler

But you're not far way from having a part of your theory either confirmed or disproven in episodes 12 and 13. It's a two parter, just so you don't stumble into this without having the time to wrap it up. In episode 16 the Professor will show his assistant an image of the talismans (way to go you dolt, you wait 16 episodes to reveal an important piece of information? Heh. Guess no on ever asked, eh?), it becomes easier to figure it out from there. A bit, at least.

Although there is one thing that I can say, perhaps. Haruka and Michiru struggle the entire season with the question of whether or not they will be strong enough to obtain the talismans and let someone innocent die to save the world.

Spoiler

When they actually have to answer that question, it is incredibly heartbreaking.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bartimaeus]

Yeah, consider what I say to me be thinking out loud and fan-theorying, not actually asking for any genuine information/spoilers, .

Spoiler

...All I got from what you said was that there's probably a reason you haven't mentioned Haruka and Michiru being in SuperS. They probably blew themselves up to save the world or something.

Y i k e s.

...Although if the third talisman is Usagi, that doesn't make any sense, so maybe it's not her after all.

[majestic]

I just thought back (and this is completely off-topic) and it hit me. I said you're just one quick google away from finding out yourself. When I watched Sailor Moon the first time there was no Umbrella Corporation google yet.

Edited February 6, 2021 by majestic

[Bartimaeus]

It is a very different time. Also, when you watched it, the episodes were still new (and presumably you couldn't obtain the manga or read Japanese), so that would have kind of prevented you from looking up anything either, .

One thing I've noticed is that this show goes a lot farther with Usagi's expressions than with anyone else's. She has so many different "meme"-ish expressions that nobody else really does. The two closest things I can think of are Rei and Chibi-Usa sticking their tongues out (at Usagi no less), as well as a commonly shared between everyone (including even the cats) exasperated expression. But Usagi's had so much more than that. I guess it's a benefit of being the protagonist...and being the most expressive character with the most screen time.

(e):

Spoiler

Yuichiro's love angst in this next episode is great - I'm glad this show is being very equal about both men and women being lovably dumb!

(e): lmao he even said "It's unforgivable!", gosh I love this show, its self-memes are always so well placed

(e): this absolutely absurd and asinine love story, haha

(e): Public notice: Rei is still awesome

One positive thing I'll say about the generated villains, is that even if their designs aren't particularly memorable, I do appreciate that they are very often humorously built off of their situation/surroundings. It's not always enough to make them notable, but at least they were trying to do something.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

Spoiler

Oh, yeah, when Yuichiro is doing the same silly Minako/Usagi thing by mistaking Haruka for a really pretty boy. Poor Yuichiro.

I figured reading one random arc of the manga without context isn't the best way to continue with the comparisons. The characters in the show have deviated enough at this point for it to make no sense without approaching any sort of analysis (and I use that term lightly, because I'm probably one of the worst persons to do that) with the context and themes of the earlier chapters. Or in other words, time to start at the beginning.

But since Yuichiro came up, there's one thing that I know and already mentioned about the anime that bothered Naoko Takeuchi, and that was changing Rei to be more like Minako was in the manga. Manga Rei is not only psychic but takes her role as shrine maiden and protector of the princess seriously. She's rational, conservative, isn't mean to Usagi and really doesn't like men in general because they were all a disappointment in her life.

There are people who are still incredibly soured by the change in the anime. One of the directors of the anime supposedly liked Rei a bit too much and insert his ideal woman into the role in an attempt to fix the fact that Rei didn't resonate with the audience nearly as much as virtually everyone else on the show. Usagi, Ami, Minako and Makoto weren't just fan favorites for Sailor Moon fans, they dominated the most popular anime characters polls for years.

Rei... just didn't. So she began being stepped on by Mamoru, was as boy-happy as the other girls (or more so), pinched Ami for no real reason, and other somewhat weird things that eventually coalesced into an interesting character that ended up being Usagi's best friend, even if she was verbally abusive every now and then. In the end she became a character that while doesn't actively dislike men, but takes no crap from them either. I like anime Rei.

So the hell, why did I post that? Oh, right:

Spoiler

Rei x Yuichiro sadly never goes anywhere. Manga Rei doesn't like romance, and after SuperS tanked the ratings the ending of the anime more closely follows the manga than before. The characters stay the same, but Rei doesn't end up with Yuichiro (or anyone, really, given her manga chastitity vow).

 

Oh, and I remembered something that made me spend half the day in front of my computer laughing hard, there's a web comic (one of the few comics I read and actually followed) called The thin H line, later called Sexy Losers (it is also mostly known as Sexy Losers, but like any early adopter I'm proud of being able to out-nerd people).

Unless you enjoy really, really dark humor that breaks every (mostly sexual*, but not only) taboo possible it would probably not be a good idea to look it up, and most of it is not safe for work, but it has a a parody section that has a comic strip that deals with Sailor Moon's gratuitous upskirts drawings, and the reason why Tuxedo Mask always leaves so quickly (reason in the spoiler).

Spoiler

It's because he's off to pleasure himself thinking of Sailor Moon's transformation sequence, a deliberate stab at the very people they put the upskirt/panty shots in for.

Here's what the Interweb has to say about SL:

Quote

Formerly known as The Thin H Line, Sexy Losers was an adult Webcomic by Clay (a.k.a. Hard) that began in 1999. Drawn in an animesque style, it followed the antics of several different characters. They include a hentai artist, a necrophiliac, a compulsive masturbator (and his equally compulsive masturbating sister), a bored housewife trying to seduce her son, a group of scientists developing bizarre sex aids, several porn stars, and a couple of stage magicians. It was the highest scoring entry on the List Of Potentially Offensive Webcomics, having been awarded six "toilets" out of a possible five. Its biggest claim to fame was its popularizing "fap" and "shlick" as onomatopoeiae for male and female masturbation. It's notable in that the graphic art and themes is not the point, but a vehicle for both comedy and serious discussion. Emphasis added by the poster.

*In case anyone deduced from my post about American Pie that I don't like sexualized humor in general, no, that's not it. Sexy Losers is a riot because it breaks taboos that are taboo for a much better reason than simple prudity, and most of the punchlines are actually really clever - and almost universally disturbing. I love it, please don't hate on me for it.

Edited February 7, 2021 by majestic

[majestic]

Just finished watching the SuperS episode where Rei gains her new attack.
 

Spoiler

 

Instead of being trapped in a mirror funhouse like in the manga she meets a young girl - the victim of the week, who else - who wants to help her be a shrine maiden beause she's too insecure to pursue her own dreams. She believes that Rei's dream in life is to be what she's in the manga and wants to emulate that, but that's not true at all in the anime. Rei's anime dreams are just fine for her character though.

Usagi finds out about Nanako's (wait a minute, is that an actual jab at Naoko Takeuchi? I wish I could tell, Nanako and Naoko sound really similar to me, but that might not be true at all for Japanese natives, I mean... I can also properly make and hear R and L sounds but would probably sound like a dolt trying to speak Japanese) dream not being a shrine maiden at all and Rei acts in the wonderfully hypocritical manner that she sometimes does - she thinks Nanako should not be a shrine maiden when it's not her dream to be a shrine maiden (neither yours there, Rei, neither is yours).

Nanako overhears this and is crushed, then attacked and saved by a newly upgraded Sailor Mars. Rei also transforms into Super Sailor Mars in a standard way, not like Ami in the last episode, which probably means that episode was made after the decision to have Pegasus and not their internal conflict upgrade the girls into their super forms.

I mean, assuming there was a such a decision, just because Ami's footage and story beats seem to be repurposed from a closer sticking to the manga in the last episode doesn't mean that actually happened, but still...

So nothing in this epsiode happens like it does in the manga, but the underlying theme, Rei seeing a reflection of herself, is still there. Nanako's dreams mirror Rei's almost verbatim. Only Rei has the confidence to pursue them, Nanako doesn't.

Rei gains her upgraded power when she manages to give her young protege (who sees Rei as the older sister she always wanted) her dreams back, in other words, when she does what a shrine maiden is supposed to do. Help others with their dreams.

What a joy to see.

edit: I googled a bit, and nothing came up. If Nanako was intended as a jab then nobody complained about it. Which is unlikely given the amount of vitriol you can find for the decision to change Rei.

edit 2: Forgot to mention, another episode without Creepasus and his Palantír.

Episode was good, some fun interactions and a very meaningful encounter for Rei.

Watchable streak increased to 5 now. What a wonderful development, this makes a good case for skipping like 18 of the first 22 episodes and pretending they never happened.

And +1 for the theory that the writers were replaced by alien ghostwriters earlier in the season.

I'm actually looking forward to the next episode. That hasn't happened since... oh before you were born, Luke.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

From what I've read a lot of things in the manga sound a lot more interesting. Problem is I don't really want to read it while watching the anime, Crystal is ugly cuz of cgi and very elongated character designs (maybe it gets better, apparently they've changed designs with every iteration), and I'm already reading a lovely manga where a paraplegic jockey teams up with a doctor/executioner to fight a dinosaur and 19th century Donald Trump because Jesus told them to. I think I'm going to keep up with this anime for the time being and try to slow down so I don't get fatigued.

[majestic]

1 minute ago, KaineParker said:

and I'm already reading a lovely manga where a paraplegic jockey teams up with a doctor/executioner to fight a dinosaur and 19th century Donald Trump because Jesus told them to.

Wait, what?