Magic Styles/Specialization?

[Somna]

I'm wondering if it would be interesting to have magic styles/specialties in the game. By this, I don't mean something like "Arcane Magic" or "Divine Magic" or "Fire Magic" where it is a category. Something I'm defining as a "style" would be a bit more about how you do it rather than what kind of magic it is.

 

Some examples of what I mean:

 

Rune Magic - (Delayed spells) Cast spells by putting magic in a rune and discharge it later, with a limit to the runes you can have active.

Focus magic - (Channeled spells) Cast spells through a focus for a benefit on the spell (maybe more damage or harder to resist), but you have to have a focus in order to cast anything

Cooperative magic - Team up with another spellcaster. If you both cast specific kinds of spells in sequence or at the same time, get complementary or boosted results.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited November 16, 2012 by Somna

[Archmage Silver]

Co-op magic seems more like a normal combat tactic than an actual specialization. The other two strike me as strategic choices as well rather than specializations. Specializing in summoning or illusions would be closer a to a specialization in my mind.

[Osvir]

^Also what Archmage Silver said. Focus Magic and Delayed Magic sounds like it could be different aspects to different spells, whilst a co-operative spell could enhance both 1 and 2.

 

For a Wizard I would like to see some different schools of Magic (with a Grimoire):

 

* Necromancy

* Invoking

* Enchanting

etc.etc.

 

For other Classes (e.g., Chanter), it would be different imo. A Chanter could have a partiture, or an instrument:

 

Paladin and Priest having Holy Scripture (and if they "Fall" it could be "The False Word" or something, Heressy).

 

A Druid would use Elemental Magic by the use of a Staff.

 

More in the Wall of Text in my signature.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Osvir

[Somna]

That's not quite what I mean. Let's grab how spellcasting from AD&D works as a base, since that's what the IE games were pretty much based off of --

 

1. Combine components (Verbal, Somatic, Material/Focus)

2. Finish casting spell (the "cast time")

3. Effect goes off.

 

Rune Magic changes that order to something like this for ALL your spells (i.e. you don't have the option to cast the normal way):

 

1. Combine components (Verbal, Somatic, Material)

2. Apply Trigger effect ("when I hit someone" or "when I am hit" for common options)

3. Finish casting spell (At least twice as long as a normal spell)

4. Effect goes off when triggered

 

Focus Magic, on the other hand, alter it this way (think Harry Potter) for all your spells:

 

1. Combine components (Verbal, Somatic)

2. Finish casting spell (at a faster speed than normal or Rune Magic)

3. Effect goes off.

 

Cooperative Magic is a bit more tactical then a specialty, yes. As far as I've seen, it usually gets implemented either as a feat or as a prestige class ability, so I guess having that as a style of magic doesn't quite count.

 

I probably shouldn't have used "specialization" since it already has a pre-defined meaning in D&D with Specialist Wizards that specialize in schools of magic, which is definitely NOT what I was trying to go for.

[Osvir]

If I understand it correctly, which I don't know if I entirely am tbh but... it sounds cool. Simplify (e.g., use a character, a situation)

 

"Wizard casts this spell in IE like [this]..."

 

"Wizard casts this spell in my idea like [this]..."

 

What does it look like in gameplay? (How do you imagine it?)

 

All I can think of is another style:

 

Summon a fireball to your palm, but you don't necessarily throw it right away (throw, not shoot) <- because the physical animation for throwing a large chunk of fire is cooler than "Kamehameha"/Megaman (if it will be that detailed/resources allow). You hold the Fireball in your open palm and you can choose to cast/throw the spell in a general area (skill shot) like a grenade, or get some of its power/mana back (50% perhaps?).

Edited November 16, 2012 by Osvir

[Somna]

If I understand it correctly, which I don't know if I entirely am tbh but... it sounds cool. Simplify (e.g., use a character, a situation)

 

"Wizard casts this spell in IE like [this]..."

 

"Wizard casts this spell in my idea like [this]..."

 

What does it look like in gameplay? (How do you imagine it?)

 

OK.

 

Normal wizard casts Shocking Grasp.

Normal wizard attacks target, hits, and discharges Shocking Grasp.

 

Rune Magic wizard casts Shocking Grasp with the trigger of "When this hits something" and places it on...a dagger. (An arrow would probably have too small of a surface area to take the rune)

Rune Magic wizard throws at or stabs the target with the dagger and successfully hits, discharging Shocking Grasp.

 

Normal wizard casts Stoneskin

Stoneskin is cast.

 

Rune Magic wizard casts Stoneskin, on the trigger of saying a trigger word, on his armor/clothes.

Rune Magic wizard says the trigger word later, causing Stoneskin to activate.

 

Focus magic, gameplay-wise, would be casting twice as fast unless the spell's already really fast, before you consider any other benefits it may be applying. And if you get disarmed or your focus is broken, you can't cast anything until you equip another one.

 

 

 

All I can think of is another style:

 

Summon a fireball to your palm, but you don't necessarily throw it right away (throw, not shoot) <- because the physical animation for throwing a large chunk of fire is cooler than "Kamehameha"/Megaman (if it will be that detailed). You hold the Fireball in your fist and you can choose to cast the spell, or get some of its power/mana back (50% perhaps?).

 

You could do that, but a lot of people would rather just not cast it until you needed to in the first place and not have any loss at all.

 

The Rune Magic and Focus magic thoughts came because of the hint that wearing armor would slow down spellcasting speed. So as a result, you'd either slow it down some more and not care because you're pre-applying spells you think you will need anyway or speed it up to counter the speed penalty from casting.

[Osvir]

^Well, if the casting time for the Fireball is some time, perhaps it could be a great initiator (for battles, as you'd have one ready right off the bat) and most importantly a Torch in dark dungeons.

 

Same thing could apply to other spells, the Wizard encases his fists in Ice, he can either fight close range and hit it 3 times with it or shoot Frost Bolts at the enemy 3 times, or even mix. Shoot once then hit twice close range with it.

 

EDIT: Magic Missiles could charge (standing still) and you have 5 magical orbs floating around you that you can save as a Shield (enchantable with [Element]) or shoot the Missiles. A Goblin runs in close and fights your Wizard, gets hit by two Magic Missiles and dies, an Archer stands further away by the edge of the Fog of War and no one is close to him (and he's aiming an arrow at your low health Cleric on Mortality Mode) you decide to shoot the remaining 3 Magic Missiles and save the day.

 

^All of this would be duration based and not "Infinite"/"Constant"

 

Rune Magic wizard says the trigger word later, causing Stoneskin to activate.

 

^This looks like it's pretty much the same thing, just not Runic. I like it. Kind of like enchanting a Sword for your Fighter so whenever the Fighter says the word it could make the Sword a Fire Sword for some duration?

Edited November 16, 2012 by Osvir

[Labadal]

I thought "co-op magic" was something that would be possible in PE? Freeze someone, and then use another spell to shatter that person into million pieces, and other tactical spell combinations.

[Osvir]

^Perhaps there is a way to have co-op magic where you make a gigantic Fireball having 2 Wizards of the same School (or Compatible Schools) that has a larger area of effect and deals more damage? Perhaps 2 Wizards can cast 1 Level 3 Spell with Level 5 Power.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Osvir

[Labadal]

I don't know.

 

How about a druid having a spell that flings rocks at the enemies and the wizard has a fireestorm spell, and when combined, they create some kind of meteor storm.

 

I'm full of (awful?) ideas today.

[Osvir]

I like it.

 

Could a Druid cast a water prison spell that the Wizard can freeze to ice?

A Rock Fist encased in a Fireball? A Hurricane (Druid) Lightning (Wizard)?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I'd like countermagic to have three different styles: Unravel, Dissolve/Devour, and Block.

 

Unraveling is a continuous process when you try to disrupt the enemy magic while it is being cast. Its drawback is that you have to do this while the opponent is casting, thus preventing you from doing your own spellcasting. There is a direct correlation between your success of Unraveling the enemy spell and the time you've spent doing it. There is partial success, though: you may choose to Unravel just for a limited amount of time while your fighter is getting close; while you don't necessarily manage to completely crush your opponent's magic, it may disrupt his concentration enough to buy time for your fighter. On higher levels (or higher levels of success), Unraveling an enemy spell may result in the target botching, which may lead to all sorts of interesting magical mishaps depending on the type of spell being cast.

 

Dissolving is also continuous, but it eats away already existing magics (thus its utility is reduced to dispelling buffs, curses and magical defenses). It always succeeds, but the time you spend dissolving enemy magics is heavily dependent on the complexity of the target spell and the power of the mage who cast it. Its main strength lies in processing the residual magical energy of the spell being Dissolved. This process is called Devouring, and it partially refills the Devourer's magical reserves by an amount dependent on the spell being Devoured and the user's skill.

 

Blocking is the least time-consuming of the three, but it comes with a price: the less time is spent setting up the shield and observing the enemy magic being cast, the more costly the block is in terms of draining your mage's energy, and also, the risk of the barrier shattering and only partially defending against the attack increases. On the other hand, extremely skilled practicioners or ones who had proper time to set up their defenses can get away with only a moderate cost of mana, and can even reflect harmful spells back at their opponents.

[Labadal]

Osvir: Yep, it motivates the player to try different spell combos, and maybe even weaker spells can then have some use later in the game.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Labadal

[Angry Chief]

As long there is necromancy and demonology I'm fine. Black arts must prevail.

[rjshae]

As I look at what a wizard does, he is basically channeling a change to reality. To do this, he must both provide (1) a source that will cause the change and (2) a channel for the change to take effect. In specializing, he could focus on one or both of these. The source can be nature spirits, an extradimensional plane of energy potential, a powerful supernatural being, an unfathomable source of utmost chaos, and so forth. The channel relies on the soul of the caster, but it can be guided through vocalizations, runes, gems, physical motions, mental states, &c. Any of these can serve as a form of specialization, and each should have counterbalancing strengths and weaknesses.

 

The wizard could form a compact with a powerful agent that grants him the means to cast spells, but limits what he can and must do with them. Nature spirits can provide a plethora of capabilities, but the more potent spells require specialization in some aspects of nature: air, earth, fire, water, spirit, with each having its own drawbacks. Drawing magic from an extraplanar source is powerful but risky; the wizard must channel just the right amount and form, or risk failure or disaster. Likewise, depending on chaotic forces results in unpredictable effects: all aspects of the spells may vary.

 

The channels for the magic can also allow specialization, with each having their own drawbacks. Crystals, for example, are difficult to find and limit the types of magic that can be performed. Runes can produce potent and lasting magical effects, but require patience and practice.

[Osvir]

Summary of aluminumtrioxide:

 

Unraveling disrupting an enemy Wizard while he is in the process of casting. Could you blow a spell up in his face? Sounds like Cipher ability awesome nonetheless. Can't cast spells in this mode.

 

1. Dissolving you dissolve spells cast in a vicinity of your Wizard? (Not all Spells on screen I hope) this could leave your Wizard in a tricky position and (he'd have to be close to the party members and in a center vulnerable position). Or is it only spells cast on the Wizard? (Catching Magic Missiles and negating them basically). Would dissolve all spells but would come at the cost of your own Wizard's spell resources.

 

2. Devour follow up to Dissolving, being able to transform the negative spell energy into positive spell energy (metaphor), dependent on level of spell. Other penalties would follow as well. Can't cast spells while in "Dissolve/Devour Mode".

 

Block Shielding Style, having to manage shield/barrier tactically and thus can't cast spells.

 

EDIT:

 

Q: Would, in Dissolving spells, the Spells dissolve when they reach the area of dissolvement or right away in the casters hands?

Edited November 16, 2012 by Osvir

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Summary of aluminumtrioxide:

 

Unraveling disrupting an enemy Wizard while he is in the process of casting. Could you blow a spell up in his face? Sounds like Cipher ability awesome nonetheless. Can't cast spells in this mode.

 

1. Dissolving you dissolve spells cast in a vicinity of your Wizard? (Not all Spells on screen I hope) this could leave your Wizard in a tricky position and (he'd have to be close to the party members and in a center vulnerable position). Or is it only spells cast on the Wizard? (Catching Magic Missiles and negating them basically). Would dissolve all spells but would come at the cost of your own Wizard's spell resources.

 

2. Devour follow up to Dissolving, being able to transform the negative spell energy into positive spell energy (metaphor), dependent on level of spell. Other penalties would follow as well. Can't cast spells while in "Dissolve/Devour Mode".

 

Block Shielding Style, having to manage shield/barrier tactically and thus can't cast spells.

 

EDIT:

 

Q: Would, in Dissolving spells, the Spells dissolve when they reach the area of dissolvement or right away in the casters hands?

 

1. Unraveling disrupts the threads of the magic itself being woven into a spell; hence the name. So it's not the enemy spellcaster's mind being clouded (there are specific spells for that purpose, too, though); but rather a competition where the two magicians wrestle for the control of the same chunk of magical energy being formed to achieve a specific effect. And of course you can blow up spells in their face, when it makes sense as a magical mishap. But if it's a healing spell, for example, it could propagate growth without control, large chunks of flesh appearing in random locations on the intended target, causing considerable distress and physical pain. If it's a curse, it can affect the caster instead. If it's a summon... it may attract the attention of an immensely powerful eldritch abomination, which chooses to heed the call instead of the intended creature. Et cetera.

 

2. Dissolving/Devouring is spell-specific or target-specific or area-specific, but usually spell-specific, since the time to dispel all spells affecting a target (or target area) takes no less time either way, but you can set up an order in which you want the spells to disappear. You cannot Dissolve a spell which resolves itself in a matter of seconds (most offensive spells fall into this category), since the time required to do so is way higher than the amount you have to react. On the other hand, if you manage to slow them down... maybe. It could be implemented with different talents/feats associated with this skill. Devouring, for example, is a step up from simply dissolving. Basically, you're making use of the magical energy put into creating the spell. And yes, you cannot cast spells while Devouring, but the process is constantly weakening the structure of the target spell, meaning you can feed upon a spell - thus refilling your mana reserves and at the same time reducing its duration - shoot one of your offensive spells, then go back to sapping away the weakened spell's energies.

 

3. Blocking actually allows you to react reflexively, without thinking, setting up a barrier while casting another spell, but since you concentrate to your own spell, you lose the bonus associated with both anticipating the incoming spell and adapting to it (a reduction in mana cost) and the one with carefully weaving the barrier's structure (an increase in the integrity of the barrier; at low intergrities, it may shatter and only partially or not at all reduce the strength of the incoming attack, while at high integrities, spells may even bounce back from it). You can circumvent these by picking up appropriate feats related to battlefield awareness and pattern recognition, allowing you to retain these bonuses as a part of you actually is concentrating to the incoming spell and setting up the barrier, while you're being occupied with something else.

 

A: When Dissolving, you choose a target spell, which will start to weaken right away (its duration will drop). There is no area of dissolvement, and since you can only Dissolve spells which were already cast, you can't do it in the caster's hand either. That's what Unraveling and Blocking are for.

[Osvir]

Great ideas

[Aldereth]

I started this off as a reply to the thread about magic specialization but it is shaping up to be an entirely different topic. Why does cRPG base their spell system (and combat system for that matter) on some kind of conversion from PnP system? Instead consider what the computer can do well in the area graphics, sound, fast operation on in game variable...etc., the input interface in the form of keyboard and mouse or joypad. I think if you break it down to the different components, you can design a robust system that is a better fit for computer and possibly have more depth.

 

To illustrate my point, take Damage over Time (DoT) type damage as an example. In a PnP system, while there are DoT spells but one would normally not make a mage that specialize in this kind of spell because with pen and paper. A battle with multiple opponents and multiple area of effect DoT, each turn would be an unbearable chore that could give good old PnP Starfleet Battle a run for the title of the most preferred game system for rulebook lawyers Whereas with computer, this would not be a big problem. Heck, you can build a spell casting class that specialize in DoT.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, while having vast amount of multiple version of very similar spell (think about hold person, stun, paralyse, pretty much the same effect) may give context to a PnP game. On a computer with the interface we have, just going through the list breaks immersion. Think about Skyrim's vast spell list and the last time you have to scroll down that unbearably long list for the spell you want. And even with real time with pause or turn base, it ain't exactly fun or engaging to either pause the game many times or bring up the spell book menu on screen.

 

So instead of looking at school of magic. Start the design by identifying the damage type one want to implement, range, area of effect, shape of area. eg. For damage type fire, it is 1-6 x character level damage if it is at point blank range, and it drains the mana point. Then we look at range, decrease the damage multiplier by the same amount. Say, 6th level character can cast a fire spell that does 6x1d6 damage touch range or 5x1d6 at 1 range and the max range would be 12 tiles where damage would be 1d6/6. Then look at area of effect, for each tile area, you decrease the muliple again. Then the shape of the area. circle will have the highest damage in the center. Triagle (cone) will have the highest damage at the tile right in front of the character.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Aldereth

[Somna]

It's because people take what works, then build on it.

 

It does sound like you'd like how some Psionic powers worked in 3.5 D&D though. It's a point system for "power" (the Psionic "mana") where you start with a base power cost on a spell, and then can tack on augmentations to boost what it does.

 

For example, here's Psionic Charm.

 

The base power costs 1 power point.

 

You can choose to spend more power points on it to augment it in the following manner:

 

 

If you spend 2 additional power points, this power can also affect an animal, fey, giant, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid.

If you spend 4 additional power points, this power can also affect an aberration, dragon, elemental, or outsider in addition to the creature types mentioned above.

If you spend 4 additional power points, this power’s duration increases to one day per level.

 

So if you spent an extra 8 power points, you make it also affect up to 4 different types of creatures on top of humanoids and extend the duration to 1 day/level. On top of that, if you spend it on those effects, you also increase how hard it is to resist.

[Atreides]

^Nice ideas in the thread to get players to consider adding more mages to get increasing benefits.

 

Some ideas to add

• Combining spell effects (grease & fire, ice and blunt damage) adds a tactical feel and rewards timing. Source of effects could come from different classes
  
• Co-op casting: I'm thinking of more than one caster getting together and casting a bigger version or more complex spell. Seeing mages start casting together while melee stalls for time seems ominous. This could work by selecting a few casters and selecting the co-op option if they have spells in common. Maybe some spells are only avialable this way
  
• Empowering spells: sacrificing more resources (mana, cannibalising other unused spells) for a more potent effect. If I'm desperate enough, I'll throw everything I have into that last throw of the dice
  

[Falkon Swiftblade]

Cooperative magic - Team up with another spellcaster. If you both cast specific kinds of spells in sequence or at the same time, get complementary or boosted results.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I can't get this image out of my head ...

 

 

or the words of Egon, "Don't cross the streams!"

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyaLZHiJJnE

Edited November 19, 2012 by Falkon Swiftblade