Attributes - Fixed or Increasing?

[TrashMan]

The problems with this STR/ DEX/ INT stats is that they are solely based on fight and action. Yes, P:E has a focus on fighting so they are relevant. But does it have to include these in their roleplay setting as the MAIN SKILLS which define the personality of a character?

 

I want to know how the attributes are labeled in P:E since I think that this "traditional labeling" doesnt fit anymore for the PnP roleplay-reinfluenced type of game P:E (I think) will be.

 

Define the personality?

 

 

 

True, true. I am curious, though... would the damage of a weapon really always be directly proportionate to your strength? I mean, if I stab you with a dagger, it doesn't really take that much force for the blade to slide on in (assuming it's striking a cuttable material, and not solid steel or something). So, if a 13-year-old boy stabs someone with a dagger, and The Rock stabs someone with a dagger, I'm not sure there's going to be THAT much difference in the actual amount of damage inflicted. There probably wouldn't be as much difference in the damage as there is between the boy's strength and The Rock's strength, right?

 

You have a point. But wouldn't there almsot always be SOME armor? You are right that the difference would be smaller with a stabing weapon - but I still see the Rock driving the dagger hilt deep, while the boy might not go all the ways in. Of course, for simplificationjs sake, we can assume no difference.

 

STR mattters more if there is armor to overcome and with blunt, slashing weapons.

Hmm....maybe STR giving a bonus to armor piercing?

 

EDIT: Ninjad by Eiphel....

Edited June 19, 2013 by TrashMan

[Lephys]

I'm highly anticipating seeing what Josh and team are doing with attributes, since he/they are most likely LEAGUES ahead of my piddly evaluation of one-or-two attributes within a handful of contexts.

 

But until then, I like this exploration of what could make sense for attribute-effect changes from the usual stuff.

 

Maybe simply looking at each stat and what it could feasibly affect, individually, then sort of cross-referencing, would be more productive than my slowpoke method of just trying to look at everything at once. *shrug*

[Karkarov]

The best way to avoid a dump stat would just be to create a six stat system that filtered into "merged stats" like what they tried at one time in an optional 2nd edition D&D rules book.

 

Basically you take 6 stats.

 

Strength - Your ability to pull of feats of power such as moving a boulder.

Constitution - Your physical fitness and general shape.

Dexterity - Your ability with minute detail work such as painting.

Agility - Your ability to do acrobatic things like somersaults or back flips.

Knowledge - Your literal knowledge, how much stuff you know and have learned.

Willpower - Your mental fortitude and toughness, how well you can deal with stress, etc etc.

 

These stats alone don't do anything, they are just numerical representations of your characters overall shape.  They combine to merged stats though which do in fact effect things, and this is why you have no "dump" stat.  Each merged stat is the existing stats, added together, and divided to an average.

 

Strength + Con = Health, how many wounds you can take before death.

Strength + Dexterity = Accuracy, your bonus to landing hits with physical attacks melee or ranged.

Strength + Agility = Speed, how fast you can make attacks, initiative if that's a thing.

Strength + Knowledge = Force, your ability to inflict damage with weapon based attacks based on pure strength and knowing enemy weak points.

Strength + Willpower = Determination, ability to resist mental attacks and bonuses to blocking with a shield or parrying.

Constitution + Dexterity = Grappling, your talent at certain unarmed maneuvers, climbing,  etc

Constitution + Agility = Endurance, how much stamina you have, or your bonus to it.

Constitution + Knowledge = Conditioning, how strong your natural resistance to disease, poison, etc are through knowledge of medicine and natural body function.

Constitution + Willpower = Resistance, ability to mitigate raw damage from elemental or magical attacks and survive harsh elements.

Dexterity + Agility = Nimbleness, bonuses to picking locks, pockets, stealth, moving silently, etc etc.

Dexterity + Knowledge = Craft, how skillful you are at creating things like traps, weapons, brewing potions, all of which takes knowledge and technical skills.

Dexterity + Willpower = Direction, your ability to aim and project certain soul powers making them more likely to work such as bolts of fire or illusions.

Agility + Knowledge = Talent, bonuses to a variety of things such as fast talking a guard using wits and histrionics, performing complex dances, spotting secret passages, etc.

Knowledge + Willpower = Wisdom, understanding of and ability to harness powers of the soul making many skills do more damage, last longer, etc.

 

You get the idea.  Every stat matters in this sort of system and if you do ignore something like willpower just because you are a barbarian you will likely pay for it.

[Sarex]

But doesn't knowledge=experience?

[Morgulon the Wise]

 

The problems with this STR/ DEX/ INT stats is that they are solely based on fight and action. Yes, P:E has a focus on fighting so they are relevant. But does it have to include these in their roleplay setting as the MAIN SKILLS which define the personality of a character?

 

I want to know how the attributes are labeled in P:E since I think that this "traditional labeling" doesnt fit anymore for the PnP roleplay-reinfluenced type of game P:E (I think) will be.

 

Define the personality?

 

 

Never thought about it that the stats of your character could resemble the personality? Physical strength doesn't just pop up, (besides the genetics) tit is also grounded in a need or an urge for strength. And backtracking DEX/ INT to personality factors is much easier. But for me it just doesn't feel right to display these factors through STR/ DEX/ CON/ INT/ WIS/ CHA.

 

Or didn't you want the characters to have something like a personality? Are stats which show how good they are in fighting, lockpicking and keeping spells in their mind good enough?

 

 

 

 

Strength + Con = Health, how many wounds you can take before death.

Strength + Dexterity = Accuracy, your bonus to landing hits with physical attacks melee or ranged.

Strength + Agility = Speed, how fast you can make attacks, initiative if that's a thing.

Strength + Knowledge = Force, your ability to inflict damage with weapon based attacks based on pure strength and knowing enemy weak points.

Strength + Willpower = Determination, ability to resist mental attacks and bonuses to blocking with a shield or parrying.

Constitution + Dexterity = Grappling, your talent at certain unarmed maneuvers, climbing,  etc

Constitution + Agility = Endurance, how much stamina you have, or your bonus to it.

Constitution + Knowledge = Conditioning, how strong your natural resistance to disease, poison, etc are through knowledge of medicine and natural body function.

Constitution + Willpower = Resistance, ability to mitigate raw damage from elemental or magical attacks and survive harsh elements.

Dexterity + Agility = Nimbleness, bonuses to picking locks, pockets, stealth, moving silently, etc etc.

Dexterity + Knowledge = Craft, how skillful you are at creating things like traps, weapons, brewing potions, all of which takes knowledge and technical skills.

Dexterity + Willpower = Direction, your ability to aim and project certain soul powers making them more likely to work such as bolts of fire or illusions.

Agility + Knowledge = Talent, bonuses to a variety of things such as fast talking a guard using wits and histrionics, performing complex dances, spotting secret passages, etc.

Knowledge + Willpower = Wisdom, understanding of and ability to harness powers of the soul making many skills do more damage, last longer, etc.

 

The usage of STR/ DEX and CON is also the reason why the x+y isn't perfectly capable of  fitting  z in my opinion 

 

(by the way this is nonetheless the best system to utilize all skills which are given).

 

You have also only knowledge as one form of intelligence. The fluid intelligence/ mental agility just doesnt seem to exist in your system:

 

 

Agility + Knowledge = Talent, bonuses to a variety of things such as fast talking a guard using wits and histrionics, performing complex dances, spotting secret passages, etc.

 

agility and dexterity are also from my understanding mostly the same (agility just goes a bit more into the direction of speed)

 

How can your muscles help you against mental attacks?:

 

 

Strength + Willpower = Determination, ability to resist mental attacks and bonuses to blocking with a shield or parrying.

 

and so on...

 

I think this system needs to be refined. A good approach though not really fitting/ covering (may it be the stats which you use as base or the ideas you had)

 

(Oh its you Karkarov! So the battle of the Systems goes into the next round... Just kidding. Hope I can be constructive.)

 

 

But doesn't knowledge=experience?

 

Knowledge is that stuff you get through reading books and watching TV. You get experience if you were there and took part directly or indirectly.

[TrashMan]

 

Never thought about it that the stats of your character could resemble the personality? Physical strength doesn't just pop up, (besides the genetics) tit is also grounded in a need or an urge for strength. And backtracking DEX/ INT to personality factors is much easier. But for me it just doesn't feel right to display these factors through STR/ DEX/ CON/ INT/ WIS/ CHA.

 

Or didn't you want the characters to have something like a personality? Are stats which show how good they are in fighting, lockpicking and keeping spells in their mind good enough?

 

Could? Yes. But I don't see a direct correlation.

[Shadowless]

Sadly I do not have time to read through the whole thread but if this game starts with the basic your a farmers son/unexperienced person background I would prefer a system that had 3 main attributes with broad bonuses and negatives to classes, Intelligence, Charisma, Willpower.  You may be thinking this sounds like those are only useful for mages, but in this system Intelligence may give a bonus to how often you can learn proficiensies with a weapon if your a fighter class or how good you are at ignoring the pain of having your right arm torn off.  Perhaps charisma will help you keep your party members fighting instead of running away in horror or give them buffs from having such a great leader of men (and women) in charge.  These stats do not increase as you level up, instead they can only be affected by either VERY high level spells, true artifacts or certain plotpoints in the main storyline.  If we were to a stat point system similar to the BG games, you would for example have all those skills start at 10 with 8-10 points to spread around and the ability to decrease/increase them as you see fit.

 

Secondary stats are ones that like today can in a way be "trained" Strength Endruance Agility Wisdom, these all start at 10 and when you level up (2-3 levels depending on the length of the game of course) you can either Increase one stat by one, transfer a stat point to another category and keep .5 of the bonus stat to be used if you transfer at your next skill gain.  This way you can truly feel as if you have character progression that is more than just levels that increase your HP or number of spells.

[Karkarov]

I think this system needs to be refined. A good approach though not really fitting/ covering (may it be the stats which you use as base or the ideas you had)

 

(Oh its you Karkarov! So the battle of the Systems goes into the next round... Just kidding. Hope I can be constructive.)

 

 

But doesn't knowledge=experience?

 

Knowledge is that stuff you get through reading books and watching TV. You get experience if you were there and took part directly or indirectly.

 

I am not drawing a line in the sand or even saying "this is how it should be done!".  This isn't about a UI.  There are only so many "good" ui designs out there, but with stat based systems there are literally dozens and dozens of ways you could do it that all have pro's and con's but are all equally valid for a number of reasons.

 

What I posted was more just a "hey, if you want every stat to matter here is a way you could do it" sort of thing.  It was by no means a finished product or even close.  I don't like some of it's aspects myself but I felt like it got the idea across and showed that could could make stats like "Int" matter to a raging barbarian blood drinker.

 

Also yeah pretty much.  Knowledge is what you "know or learned through study" experience is gained through practice and doing.

[Sarex]

But doesn't knowledge=experience?

 

Knowledge is that stuff you get through reading books and watching TV. You get experience if you were there and took part directly or indirectly.

 

 

Knowledge is also gained through doing something, in most games you gain xp if you read a book. I feel that you guys are unnecessarily complicating the system, just for the sake of it being complex, witch is a very bad way to approach something.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Sarex

[Karkarov]

Knowledge is also gained through doing something, in most games you gain xp if you read a book. I feel that you guys are unnecessarily complicating the system, just for the sake of it being complex, witch is a very bad way to approach something.

Not really.  Just apply common sense.  You can "learn" to be a Carpenter by reading about it.  However you can only become a good Carpenter by actually doing the job and gaining hands on well ..... experience.

 

To put it in different terms when you are going for a technical job the application asks if you have a degree, but it also probably asks how many years of on the job training you have had.  There is a reason they are separate on your job app, there is a reason they should be considered separate in game mechanics.

[Sarex]

 

Knowledge is also gained through doing something, in most games you gain xp if you read a book. I feel that you guys are unnecessarily complicating the system, just for the sake of it being complex, witch is a very bad way to approach something.

Not really.  Just apply common sense.  You can "learn" to be a Carpenter by reading about it.  However you can only become a good Carpenter by actually doing the job and gaining hands on well ..... experience.

 

To put it in different terms when you are going for a technical job the application asks if you have a degree, but it also probably asks how many years of on the job training you have had.  There is a reason they are separate on your job app, there is a reason they should be considered separate in game mechanics.

 

 

Ok, but how the hell is knowledge going to be an attribute then? Even if you could somehow make it explainable as an attribute, I don't see it working in game(except maybe if you gain attribute points at level up). You are essentially adding dead weight to the system just to make it bigger.

[Morgulon the Wise]

"Memory power" would be a much longer word. A mage who has incredible power and some dire idea what to do with it might be a deadly thread. Still I think that a less powerful one who can keep everything in mind what he needs is at least at least evenly fearsome (Somehow Dumbledore comes to my mind).

 

Nowadays nearly nobody has to have such a good knowledge because you can look it up in books or in the internet but in a time like the one of P:E a good memory should come in much more handy.

 

Knowledge in games shows us what for an understanding our character already has from the world he lives in. This is no dead weight. The stuff he experiences while we play (with) him just piles upon that.

[Sarex]

"Memory power" would be a much longer word. A mage who has incredible power and some dire idea what to do with it might be a deadly thread. Still I think that a less powerful one who can keep everything in mind what he needs is at least at least evenly fearsome (Somehow Dumbledore comes to my mind).

 

Nowadays nearly nobody has to have such a good knowledge because you can look it up in books or in the internet but in a time like the one of P:E a good memory should come in much more handy.

 

Knowledge in games shows us what for an understanding our character already has from the world he lives in. This is no dead weight. The stuff he experiences while we play (with) him just piles upon that.

I think you just described intelligence. Knowledge is something you gain, ie. not something you are born with. So if you are going for fixed stats then I don't see it working, But if you are going for attributes with level-up increase, then I don't know it could work, though it would still be dead weight in my opinion

Edited June 21, 2013 by Sarex

[Morgulon the Wise]

 

Knowledge in games shows us what for an understanding our character already has from the world he lives in.

 

I never said that you are born with it.

As a baby an average adventurer has 0 knowledge. When he is grown into an adult he may have 10. But the wizard in my group has 15 because he read a lot of books. 

 

These numbers mean:

The baby adventurer has never seen a frog. The adult one knows how they look and how they behave and move. But my wizard knows why bodies move and behave like this and also is quite schooled how they look from the inside ... A knowledge which he could use to let someones innards rot. (If I allow it)

 

When he does this a lot, he might even come to know much more of how bodies work which could lead to an attribute increase to 16! (and this has nothing to do with a level-up!) It also could lead to a perk.

I've already stated, that an attribute shouldn't go higher than 2 over their original stats 'cause I'm pro-slight-increase.

[Pshaw]

I'm sure I've made my love for Fallout completely clear in previous posts but I've always found it's SPECIAL system to work great. It doesn't simply become, 'well I'm a fighter so more strength!' You really feel your all of your low scores and you also really appreciate your high scores. You can increase them beyond character creation but only rarely. Which I prefer to having X amount of points to spend every level or 2. There is no rolling involved which is great since all characters start on equal footing and you don't need to waste 20min rerolling for high stats.

My favorite aspect is that while your initial attribute scores have an effect on your secondary scores (perception for example increased all ranged combat, First Aid, Doctor, Lockpick, Traps and Pilot skills) beyond that you could still improve you character in whatever areas you wanted. You could still choose specializations in any secondary skills you desired as well regardless of where your characters starting attributes fell. Because of this you could play the scientist brawler or whatever strange combination suited you.

Sadly the one thing the Fallout series has always been missing was a decent way to play through without combat. Since it seems that PE is providing support for those playstyles I think that it would be perfect for a SPECIAL type attribute system.

[Brasidas]

Nevermind.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Brasidas

[Lephys]

I think something along the lines of Intelligence/Intellect probably works better than Knowledge, really.

 

I mean, one can be a genius and never have read a book in his life.

 

That's the whole point of these attributes, I think. They're abstractly-quantified values of a person.

 

Intelligence dicates how well your mind can take in information and make sense of it, and, to some capacity, how much it can juggle at once, and how quickly it can act, etc. This is regardless of whether or not you've read books or studied things, or just figured it out on your own, or haven't figured it out at all. It's not the amount of stuff you've figured out. It's your potential to figure things out, basically.

[Sensuki]

We *might* get to see them tonight in the reveal if they show gameplay.

[Karkarov]

We *might* get to see them tonight in the reveal if they show gameplay.

That would be nice if Obsidian did that.... just sayin...

[Sheikh]

I think the best would be a mix of as many different ways of increasing stats as possible. Lets say you get 1 stat every level, which stats it is is determined by the game based on what you have used the character for and random luck as well. Then every third level you could select one stat that will increase on your next level up, overriding the game choosing it for you. Its like consciously developing yourself through learning and such.

[Lephys]

But why should the stats increase that much? I'm interested in the why of it, more so than the what.

 

If Strength, for example, goes from 1-20, then why should you start out with 8 Strength, and become the absolute strongest person alive (20), just from going about and using your muscles? Obviously you might gain Strength, but when the world's already established what 20 means, relative to everyone else, what reason is there for people to go around becoming more intelligent and gaining pure strength and constitution every time they save a kitten from a tree?

 

"We killed so many orcs yesterday, I'm HELLA Charismatic, now! 8D!!!!!"

 

That's even worse in systems where Charisma is tied to physical beauty, haha. "Dude, I've adventured so much, I'm THE PRETTIEST PERSON EVER!"

[Morgulon the Wise]

I think for the orcs you wil remain an ugly, disgusting person. If there still live some...

[Karkarov]

But why should the stats increase that much? I'm interested in the why of it, more so than the what.

 

If Strength, for example, goes from 1-20, then why should you start out with 8 Strength, and become the absolute strongest person alive (20), just from going about and using your muscles? Obviously you might gain Strength, but when the world's already established what 20 means, relative to everyone else, what reason is there for people to go around becoming more intelligent and gaining pure strength and constitution every time they save a kitten from a tree?

 

"We killed so many orcs yesterday, I'm HELLA Charismatic, now! 8D!!!!!"

 

That's even worse in systems where Charisma is tied to physical beauty, haha. "Dude, I've adventured so much, I'm THE PRETTIEST PERSON EVER!"

Well there is a reason why in my "suggestion" post there was no actual charisma stat and nothing relating to physical attractiveness.  I actually wrote a really really long bit of theory on how I would handle things like character creation and physical appearance and such on this forums some time ago.  I am not sure how well it went over, I think it either went over a lot of peoples heads or the just didn't like the fact that it was somewhat complex in implementation, though fairly simple to control once actually in game.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Karkarov

[sirchet]

Intelligence is knowing things.

 

Wisdom is knowing how to use Intelligence.

[Lephys]

Intelligence is knowing things.

 

Wisdom is knowing how to use Intelligence.

Minor correction, if I may. Intelligence is the rate at which one is able to learn and understand things.

 

Wisdom is, indeed, the efficient use of those learned things to learn and understand new things (or existing things to a better extent).

 

Or, to put it simply:

 

Intelligence is the ability to gain knowledge.

 

Wisdom is the ability to use knowledge.

 

 

Neither is, itself, aggregate knowledge.

 

 

And @Karkarov, I'm aware of the reason you didn't include Charisma, and the problems with tying beauty to it. I was just making an example with many existing systems. That's all. Sorry aboot that.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Lephys