Troller Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Wait, did I forbid you to have an opinion? It's a free country... not really that free, usually the rights of someone ends where the feelings of others begin, that`s a rule for most internet forums...
Providence Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Wait, did I forbid you to have an opinion? It's a free country... But I AGREEZ with you and Obsidian. Pls don't forbit it. NO kill xp, neveR, it's dangerous! And degenerative. And will attack you through the screen! Though, tbh, people probably thought they'd hurt Obsidian developers' feelings if they voted "against" their/our perfect xp system idea (no xp for KILLZ, no sir!). Doesn't matter - they still voted FOR and that's all that matters!
Volourn Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 "ut I think you are forgetting a couple of something... LOOT ?! STORY !? EASTER EGGS?! EVERYTHING OTHER THAN XP! Please explain, I am awaiting your answers " But, why are those 'good' rewards, but battle/encounter xp awards bad? Plus, easter eggs? L0L I don't play games for easter eggs. They can be fun bonuses but they shouldn't be the purpose of doing something. Fighting to get stronger makes snese. Exploring to find new areas makes sense. Fighting and exploring for phAt lewt makes sense. But, easter eggs/ L0L I say you should xp for combat, non combat skills, and quest compeltion. That's OLD SKOOL RPG and if you don't liek that you ain't old skool rpger. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Ansia Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 IMHO, if you're not willing to engage in combat if you don't get that xp bonus shows a lot more problems. The whole point of a game is to engage you, and the main form of that engagement is having fun. If the combat isn't enjoyable enough on it's own to warrant doing it for it's own sake that's a problem. And even if that's weak the looting system and making sure that at least the currency you get from the loot is meaningful and worth having should pick up the slack. I think the backlash of "I trust what they're doing" is from that if you need xp to enjoy combat and the game overall there are so many more problems than simply the xp system. There's plenty of ways to break the Pavlovian addiction to see that xp number go up without making combat less meaningful, enjoyable and rewarding. 3
Providence Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Yes (96 votes [33.68%]) Yes, but only a small amount to favour other aspects of the game than combat (86 votes [30.18%]) Yes, but only for big fights like boss battles (25 votes [8.77%]) Yes, so long as the number of enemies in the game is fixed thereby fixing total combat experience (12 votes [4.21%]) . . . No = (66 votes [23.16%]) Lucky for you that poll isn't biased at all and has a "I don't care" option. Oh wait.. And options 2 and 3 actually appear to be more goal based than the other 2 yes versions. Finally, the thing I STILL haven't seen answered by the against crew (if it was, SORRY!) Most of you appear to be advocating exploring for nothing isn't fun. I agree! But I think you are forgetting a couple of something... LOOT ?! STORY !? EASTER EGGS?! EVERYTHING OTHER THAN XP! Please explain, I am awaiting your answers If you can't explain yourself, I'm afraid you might be experiencing a number fetish. Yeah, not having an "I DON'T CARE, YOU USELESS POLL, HENCE MY VOTE IN THIS POLL I DON'T CARE ABOUT" option, invalidates the poll. Also, "NO" is obviously not enough and is tendentious because next to that option, if you look hard enough, it's written: "I'm a moron". Brilliant observation. Worth of a Nobel prize. 1
Jarmo Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Oh yeah, I remember that poll now. None of the options seemed fitting so I didn't vote back then.
Troller Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 IMHO, if you're not willing to engage in combat if you don't get that xp bonus shows a lot more problems. The whole point of a game is to engage you, and the main form of that engagement is having fun. If the combat isn't enjoyable enough on it's own to warrant doing it for it's own sake that's a problem. And even if that's weak the looting system and making sure that at least the currency you get from the loot is meaningful and worth having should pick up the slack. I think the backlash of "I trust what they're doing" is from that if you need xp to enjoy combat and the game overall there are so many more problems than simply the xp system. There's plenty of ways to break the Pavlovian addiction to see that xp number go up without making combat less meaningful, enjoyable and rewarding. The combat we are expecting for P:E is a hard combat, with tough enemies, and difficult tactical decisions. Its only natural that after the hard work of defeating your enemies, you get a reward, thats how it works in real life too, you work hard, you get money, you get women, you get friends. That has always been how an RPG is played, some people dont like to grind, I personally think it can be boring, but it should be rewarded, because its only natural that those who spend more time doing something, become better at it, than others who are just delivering bread to the old lady next door.
Volourn Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 "MHO, if you're not willing to engage in combat if you don't get that xp bonus shows a lot more problems. The whole point of a game is to engage you, and the main form of that engagement is having fun. If the combat isn't enjoyable enough on it's own to warrant doing it for it's own sake that's a problem. And even if that's weak the looting system and making sure that at least the currency you get from the loot is meaningful and worth having should pick up the slack. I think the backlash of "I trust what they're doing" is from that if you need xp to enjoy combat and the game overall there are so many more problems than simply the xp system. There's plenty of ways to break the Pavlovian addiction to see that xp number go up without making combat less meaningful, enjoyable and rewarding." Agreed. This is why i propose they don't reward any xp for quest completion either. If the only reason one completes quests is for xp than there's much worse problems. Why bother rewarding xp at all. Your game should be rewarding without it. Might as well make old skool adventure games and not rpgs. Maybe a Mario game. those could be fun and rewarding and you don't need xp there at all. Just playing the game itself was fun. I mean, geez, do you see how ridiculous you sound? PE is supposed to be an old school game in the light of BG, PST, and IWD. All 3 of which gave xp for combat, dialogue, and quest completion. None of thems uffered because they gave xp for combat. Almsot every old school game - pnp or crpg - gives out xp for combat (and other stuff) and doesn't suffer for it. Why do the new kidz on the block want to destroy old schooL REAL rpgness. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Providence Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 LOOT ?! STORY !? EASTER EGGS?! EVERYTHING OTHER THAN XP! And about thiZ. Naturally bro, I don't care about my charater advancing his skillz and attributes and combat and non combat abilitiez. All I care about is those giant clubs I got as LOOT from ogrez that I can use to create an amusement-park in the middle of BIB BIG CITY 2. Also, easter eggs.. can't tell you how much I play this game to laugh for 3 months when I see a tank hidden somehwere symbolizing the bond between Brian Fargo, Wasteland 2 and Obisidan. CAN'T WAIT. Dying to find it. Also, story.. throw xp out of the window completely. Who cares about character advancement and xp when we have a big story set in a gripping interactive novel. ALL AFTER ME: SAY NO TO COMBAT! !
Maf Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Yeah, not having an "I DON'T CARE, YOU USELESS POLL, HENCE MY VOTE IN THIS POLL I DON'T CARE ABOUT" option, invalidates the poll. Also, "NO" is obviously not enough and is tendentious because next to that option, if you look hard enough, it's written: "I'm a moron". Brilliant observation. Worth of a Nobel prize. Thank you for totally ignoring my obvious question. If I happen to receive my Nobel prize, I'll donate it to a foundation that helps the blind.
Ansia Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 IMHO, if you're not willing to engage in combat if you don't get that xp bonus shows a lot more problems. The whole point of a game is to engage you, and the main form of that engagement is having fun. If the combat isn't enjoyable enough on it's own to warrant doing it for it's own sake that's a problem. And even if that's weak the looting system and making sure that at least the currency you get from the loot is meaningful and worth having should pick up the slack. I think the backlash of "I trust what they're doing" is from that if you need xp to enjoy combat and the game overall there are so many more problems than simply the xp system. There's plenty of ways to break the Pavlovian addiction to see that xp number go up without making combat less meaningful, enjoyable and rewarding. The combat we are expecting for P:E is a hard combat, with tough enemies, and difficult tactical decisions. Its only natural that after the hard work of defeating your enemies, you get a reward, thats how it works in real life too, you work hard, you get money, you get women, you get friends. That has always been how an RPG is played, some people dont like to grind, I personally think it can be boring, but it should be rewarded, because its only natural that those who spend more time doing something, become better at it, than others who are just delivering bread to the old lady next door. But doing it should be it's own reward. If it feels like work or a chore it's not a game anymore. Some people like that stuff, myself included, and they should be free to do it; but the main point of not giving xp is to not make people feel like they're playing less of a game for not doing it. It's not about making combat invalid, it's about making the other choices equally valid. It's not about taking how you like to play the game away, but opening it up more. Pretty much I don't see why the game should be compelled to make you do anything you really don't want to, especially something as time consuming as grinding out mobs. Doesn't mean you can't do it, doesn't mean it's not worth anything. If you're going to play a game it should be doing something you want to do though. If you wouldn't play a game even if the reward systems are taken out there's something very critically wrong with the game.
Providence Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Yeah, not having an "I DON'T CARE, YOU USELESS POLL, HENCE MY VOTE IN THIS POLL I DON'T CARE ABOUT" option, invalidates the poll. Also, "NO" is obviously not enough and is tendentious because next to that option, if you look hard enough, it's written: "I'm a moron". Brilliant observation. Worth of a Nobel prize. Thank you for totally ignoring my obvious question. If I happen to receive my Nobel prize, I'll donate it to a foundation that helps the blind. What question(S)? The super huge bolded ones? Look above and then judge who's blind.
Providence Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 IMHO, if you're not willing to engage in combat if you don't get that xp bonus shows a lot more problems. The whole point of a game is to engage you, and the main form of that engagement is having fun. If the combat isn't enjoyable enough on it's own to warrant doing it for it's own sake that's a problem. And even if that's weak the looting system and making sure that at least the currency you get from the loot is meaningful and worth having should pick up the slack. I think the backlash of "I trust what they're doing" is from that if you need xp to enjoy combat and the game overall there are so many more problems than simply the xp system. There's plenty of ways to break the Pavlovian addiction to see that xp number go up without making combat less meaningful, enjoyable and rewarding. The combat we are expecting for P:E is a hard combat, with tough enemies, and difficult tactical decisions. Its only natural that after the hard work of defeating your enemies, you get a reward, thats how it works in real life too, you work hard, you get money, you get women, you get friends. That has always been how an RPG is played, some people dont like to grind, I personally think it can be boring, but it should be rewarded, because its only natural that those who spend more time doing something, become better at it, than others who are just delivering bread to the old lady next door. Or men. The rest I agree with.
Troller Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) LOL, and I was liking all your posts! are you from the Codex? Edited October 16, 2012 by Troller
Providence Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 LOL, and I was liking all your posts! are you from the Codex? No. I'm not interested in a codex.
Ansia Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 "MHO, if you're not willing to engage in combat if you don't get that xp bonus shows a lot more problems. The whole point of a game is to engage you, and the main form of that engagement is having fun. If the combat isn't enjoyable enough on it's own to warrant doing it for it's own sake that's a problem. And even if that's weak the looting system and making sure that at least the currency you get from the loot is meaningful and worth having should pick up the slack. I think the backlash of "I trust what they're doing" is from that if you need xp to enjoy combat and the game overall there are so many more problems than simply the xp system. There's plenty of ways to break the Pavlovian addiction to see that xp number go up without making combat less meaningful, enjoyable and rewarding." Agreed. This is why i propose they don't reward any xp for quest completion either. If the only reason one completes quests is for xp than there's much worse problems. Why bother rewarding xp at all. Your game should be rewarding without it. Might as well make old skool adventure games and not rpgs. Maybe a Mario game. those could be fun and rewarding and you don't need xp there at all. Just playing the game itself was fun. I mean, geez, do you see how ridiculous you sound? PE is supposed to be an old school game in the light of BG, PST, and IWD. All 3 of which gave xp for combat, dialogue, and quest completion. None of thems uffered because they gave xp for combat. Almsot every old school game - pnp or crpg - gives out xp for combat (and other stuff) and doesn't suffer for it. Why do the new kidz on the block want to destroy old schooL REAL rpgness. I didn't insult you, so there's no reason to insult me in return. If you have a valid argument it can stand perfectly well on it's own and be better for it. I wouldn't object to a game with it all taken out, because you can make an engaging game without it. You can also make a game that is engaging that rewards for everything. The point is that the core of both those games should be equally rewarding. Have you ever find yourself playing a game well past you would had if not for being able to fill up that xp bar? It's a very deeply programmed response in gamers these days to be attached to these systems because it makes you feel like you accomplished something. The problem is that sometimes that makes people do things they don't really enjoy simply for that response. That's a very poorly designed game, and not one I would want to support. It's a lazy system that takes out actually having to make combat enjoyable. So honestly I think taking out the xp for blind killing will make combat more relevant, more enjoyable overall. It will be it's own reward. And leave people to engage the system as much or as little as they want to. Just think, if you go through an long hour plus long fight, at the end of it did you feel accomplished because you achieved something that was truly worth it and fun to do, or because a number popped up on your screen? If it's the second you can just get a calculator and a graph and have plenty of that without the effort.
Maf Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) And about thiZ. Naturally bro, I don't care about my charater advancing his skillz and attributes and combat and non combat abilitiez. All I care about is those giant clubs I got as LOOT from ogrez that I can use to create an amusement-park in the middle of BIB BIG CITY 2. Also, easter eggs.. can't tell you how much I play this game to laugh for 3 months when I see a tank hidden somehwere symbolizing the bond between Brian Fargo, Wasteland 2 and Obisidan. CAN'T WAIT. Dying to find it. Also, story.. throw xp out of the window completely. Who cares about character advancement and xp when we have a big story set in a gripping interactive novel. ALL AFTER ME: SAY NO TO COMBAT! ! Thanks for replying, I was already typing the last message before you posted this. Apparently goal based experience doesn't give you the feeling of character advancement. I can basically sum this up as the following. Go to Obsidian's main page: http://www.obsidian.net/ Click on "VIEW RESULTS" on the right. Notice people wanting BG/PST? Why do you think that is? Maybe because they are NOT "hardcore" dungeon crawlers? And ARE more like an interactive novel? Now I'm awaiting you comparing P:E with DA2 and really all I can do is laugh. It's a shame you can't look past this obviously trivial xp matter and see the game ahead. Edited October 16, 2012 by Maf
Troller Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) LOL, and I was liking all your posts! are you from the Codex? No. I'm not interested in a codex. I mean the forum man, RPG Codex, its a decent forum, where they discuss RPG, and hate people like me hahaha we should probably take this to PM if you want to keep going, or soon the mods will force us hahah Edited October 16, 2012 by Troller
Maf Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I mean the forum man, RPG Codex, its a decent forum, where they discuss RPG, and hate people like me hahaha we should probably take this to PM if you want to keep going, or soon the mods will force us hahah Have to say the mods have been EXTREMELY lenient on this matter, I personally would've at least stopped the discussion inside the update #24 thread.
Providence Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) LOOK! The advantage of "FOR" is shrinking! Oh noez!! People will start killing themselves if they end up receiving xp for kills!! Click on "VIEW RESULTS" on the right. Notice people wanting BG/PST? Right! How could I miss that.. people voted most for games where NO combat xp was awarded (BG and Torment). Nice catch there. LOL, and I was liking all your posts! are you from the Codex? No. I'm not interested in a codex. I mean the forum man, RPG Codex, its a decent forum, where they discuss RPG, and hate people like me hahaha we should probably take this to PM if you want to keep going, or soon the mods will force us hahah Ah, the forum you mean. Heard about it from Gaider in some of his very angry Bio-forum diatribes when he would suddenly digress into how "those people are vile idiots" or something similar. Yeah, PM sounds fine. Edited October 16, 2012 by Providence
Volourn Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 "Just think, if you go through an long hour plus long fight, at the end of it did you feel accomplished because you achieved something that was truly worth it and fun to do, or because a number popped up on your screen? If it's the second you can just get a calculator and a graph and have plenty of that without the effort." I'd want to be rewarded for it. That's what xp does. Do i feel fantastic when I write a presumably awesome paper when I was in school? Absolutely.. but, i also want to be rewarded for it with a nice sexy A+. That's what xp does for you. That's one of the many things that makes RPGs superior to other genres. If I wanna play a agme with no xp I'd play Mario. Are you saying Mario is better than every RPg ever created because it doesn't give xp awards yet players still play it? That's silly talk. I want to be rewarded for what i do and how I do them. i wanna be rewarded for combat, dialogue triumphs, skill useage, quest completion, or whatever. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Troller Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I mean the forum man, RPG Codex, its a decent forum, where they discuss RPG, and hate people like me hahaha we should probably take this to PM if you want to keep going, or soon the mods will force us hahah Have to say the mods have been EXTREMELY lenient on this matter, I personally would've at least stopped the discussion inside the update #24 thread. Yeah lets stop discussions, I mean why would you want discussions in a forum??
curryinahurry Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) I haven't read through the whole thread so I don't know if anybody has really addressed this, but there is more than just a semantic difference between quest based and objective based rewards. Objectives can be pretty fine grained and even more a matter of scripting encounter design; e.g., getting through a wandering monster encounter can be treated as an objective or getting past a room of hobgoblins (killing, sneaking, sleeping with a spell, etc.). It seems to me the only difference in this from the traditional system is that the game must take into account how one navigated the encounter and how to trigger the xp rewards. The trick of doing something like this is how to keep people from running through the encounter more than once in order to exploit the system. Edited October 16, 2012 by curryinahurry 2
Ansia Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 "Just think, if you go through an long hour plus long fight, at the end of it did you feel accomplished because you achieved something that was truly worth it and fun to do, or because a number popped up on your screen? If it's the second you can just get a calculator and a graph and have plenty of that without the effort." I'd want to be rewarded for it. That's what xp does. Do i feel fantastic when I write a presumably awesome paper when I was in school? Absolutely.. but, i also want to be rewarded for it with a nice sexy A+. That's what xp does for you. That's one of the many things that makes RPGs superior to other genres. If I wanna play a agme with no xp I'd play Mario. Are you saying Mario is better than every RPg ever created because it doesn't give xp awards yet players still play it? That's silly talk. I want to be rewarded for what i do and how I do them. i wanna be rewarded for combat, dialogue triumphs, skill useage, quest completion, or whatever. I'm not saying one is intrinsically superior, I'm saying both can be equally valid. And the no xp = mario game is completely off base. Just because you're not getting a number as feedback changes nothing else about the encounter. I personally play rpgs because I enjoy them. Not because I get a number on the screen. Does it feel nice to get that? Yeah, it does, that's why it exists. But it doesn't mean that you can't make something that feels equally good without it. I'm not saying it's not something that shouldn't be in any game, just that it's entirely possible to make one without it, because the rest of the game should be just as rewarding. If the only part of a game you play rewarding you is the xp number there is something critically wrong with that game It should be enjoyable as a whole, not just that part. If a fight doesn't have an xp reward at the end the whole experience shouldn't be worthless. It's a part of what is an rpg, but it isn't an essential one to get xp after every kill. It's one that hasn't been fiddled with often, so it feels vital, but it really isn't if you're able to design well enough. It's like saying you can't make a cake without butter. It's such an often use ingredient it feels like it's an essential component, and the lack of it may make many wary, but there's plenty of cakes that are made without it. Same with xp off kills, it's a common major component but it isn't vital. And your last statement only reinforces it more. If you want to be rewarded for all those things, that's exactly what you're getting. The only thing people are arguing is if those things are rewarded equally, and if the dialog and other options are as equally difficult and engaging, then I think they should be rewarded equally. No one should feel punished for how they want to play.
Slaunyeh Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I'm for. While I could generally go both ways, and handing out xp "the old way" wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, I like the idea of having alternative ways of completing objectives, and making it less about murdering the countryside. That, and it's usually a pain to balance "murder everyone" against some sort of "killed nobody" xp bonus achievement at the end of a quest (not to mention the motivation of sneaking through a quest to get the "killed nobody" xp bonus, and THEN murder everyone on your way out, to get both. ). I'll be interested in seeing how they pull it off. 1
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