disappointed (torment fan perspective)

[Rink]

@Merlkir of course you are correct that there should be something new in the game, new fantasy classes and races are fine for me, but I also like that they take a root of basic stuff from other games if they really have no way to replace it with something absolutely new or people just generally like it (and it would for example just be silly to exclude fighterclass from any rpg game).

For me innovation doesn't HAVE to happen in the gamesetting, for me innovation should happen in story, writing of companions and quests.

 

Kickstarter is about innovation just as it is about nostalgia. But many innovation-projects ususally just do not reach that level of funding, because they don't have a pool of people they can mobilise in a heartbeat.

[WorstUsernameEver]

"Innovation" is a loaded term. New doesn't mean good, and just because something errs on the side of familiarity, it doesn't necessarily mean it will have bad writing or won't be creative. Frankly, the reason fantasy archetypes get reused again and again is because they resonate with a lot of people. (I'm also of the opinion that constraining a writer is a good way to challenge him/her to push things in unexpected ways. Bringing a fantasy setting to its conclusions can be a lot more interesting than a title about flying stingrays debating philosophy with books that communicate through scent, not to mention a lot easier to relate to.)

 

Also, I have to be honest, I find the whole debate presumptuous. Apparently it's okay for Obsidian to do what they want to do... until they do something you're not happy with? How does that work?

 

P.S. : John Walker's article is pretty bad. As it happens with some features on RPS, they hide bad reasoning behind a snappy, readable style.

 

EDIT: I like novelties and creativity by the way. They have their place. But I place more importance on good writing and good gameplay.

Edited October 5, 2012 by WorstUsernameEver

[Merlkir]

title about flying stingrays debating philosophy with books that communicate through scent

 

well, that's a bit of a strawman, ain't it? (although I admit I'd play the **** out of THAT game!)

 

New doesn't equal "good", sure. But new seems to be "interesting" more often than the familiar. (at least for me) And obviously archetypes are archetypes for a reason. There are ways to use archetypes in new ways though, or disguise them subtly, or show them in a new light. Which is what I hoped they were going to do.

 

(good example of this type of setting building would be Steven Erikson and his Malazan Book of the Fallen, where the Tiste are obviously playing the role of angsty elves, but aren't really elves. Or Tamriel, where dwarves are tall, yet bearded and grumpy and extinct. Also they're elves, as are the orcs. Wait what? Yes, especially in the earlier games they did a LOT of interesting setting stuff.)

 

Then we get acid arrows, time stops and barbarians, which is very much not that. (I'm sorry if I continue to offend acid arrow enthusiasts, it's just a funny spell )

 

I wasn't as bothered by the races, because they seemed...hmm, less DnD copy pasta. Not the case with the class update.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Merlkir

[Rink]

(good example of this type of setting building would be Steven Erikson and his Malazan Book of the Fallen, where the Tiste are obviously playing the role of angsty elves, but aren't really elves. Or Tamriel, where dwarves are tall, yet bearded and grumpy and extinct. Also they're elves, as are the orcs.

 

I am not sure if that really qualifies for innovation in my mind though. Is that what you are asking for? We can also make elfes blue, dwarfes invisible and make orks as small as ants and very smart. That would just invent new names for things we already know, just recycled and puzzled together differently.

 

I personally rather see additions to the setting we know and love, new races and classes additional, so we don't have to recycle anything much and give silly names to things we know the names already.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Rink

[Rasmudd]

It sounds like a troll to me. Obsidian was very clear in what they were offering - a BG/IE style game. That's the reason why i forked my $140 for the project - ebcause it has dwarves and theya re promising a BG style game. There are plenty of non DnD games out there. Go play tyhem. hey, there is Wasteland 2 if you want it.

 

They did advertise it would have a good story like planescape torment. To me, the combat stuff will be fun, but is way on the sidelines for what I consider important to the game. All I want is just a good and interesting CRPG and I still believe in that they will deliver it. It was a blow to hear they where going to pick up the tired old fantasy formula but tbh it doesn't matter TOO much as you can do almost what you want with it, so it'll probably still be good.

 

My problem is not "jesus obsidian, what are you doing? This sucks? Give me Torment!" it is more "Get to only hear about rudimentary boring mechanics that don't mean nothing and have stretch goals that mostly just seem like extra filler that I'd rather be without and it makes me worried about the direction of the game because how they chose to interact with the pledgers".

[Merlkir]

I am not sure if that really qualifies for innovation in my mind though. Is that what you are asking for? We can also make elfes blue, dwarfes invisible and make orks as small as ants and very smart. That would just invent new names for things we already know, just recycled and puzzled together differently.

 

I personally rather see additions to the setting we know and love, new races and classes additional, so we don't have to recycle anything much and give silly names to things we know the names already.

 

The usual trinity of "elves/dwarves/humans" is BORING. I don't want to just paint them blue or make them ant sized. What I quoted as examples - they did something else. In the case of Erikson, he created many races with original names, languages and most importantly - believable evolution and history. Yes, some of them play similar roles and produce similar characters to standard elves, but in many aspects they're not elves. And I'm not thinking "oh, these are blue elves", I'm thinking "Oh, these are Tiste Andii, sons of Mother Night". It's not just labelling elves with an unnecessary new name.

What Bethesda did in Tamriel is the opposite - they have rather original history and evolution of these races (the fact all these races came from elves for instance), they all have specific names for themselves and strange cultures (the dwarves resemble Assyrians for example). But the humans call them elves, dwarves and orcs. The orcs are mostly green with fangs and the dwarves were bearded and grumpy and good with machines. But under all that they're still quite different to the boring archetypal dwarves and orcs and elves.

 

Personally, I could live entirely without anything resembling the holy trinity at all, but something as described above would be good enough to entertain and interest me as well.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Merlkir

[NerdBoner]

it is more "Get to only hear about rudimentary boring mechanics that don't mean nothing and have stretch goals that mostly just seem like extra filler that I'd rather be without and it makes me worried about the direction of the game because how they chose to interact with the pledgers".

 

 

oh I see what the problem is...you wanna read the last page of a book before the first is even written...gotcha.

Edited October 5, 2012 by NerdBoner

[obyknven]

First they "Chris Avellone "very tempted" to do a Planescape: Torment Kickstarter" blah-blah

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-25-chris-avelleone-very-tempted-to-do-a-planescape-torment-kickstarter

But then they copypaste this

as "concept art"

 

[Merlkir]

That's not what he's saying. What.

 

Another example is the player house. That's a feature I don't care for at all. It makes some kind of sense in open world RPGs like the TES games, you live those. But in a story driven linear game, why would I want to own a house? The pocket plane in BGII was cool, but that's because it was a pocket dimension, not because it was my home.

 

Didn't MotB have some core mechanic like soul harvesting and stuff? Why not add something actually interesting?

 

Oh no, let's add pointless crafting instead.

[evdk]

 

Didn't MotB have some core mechanic like soul harvesting and stuff? Why not add something actually interesting?

 

Oh no, let's add pointless crafting instead.

 

Because the soul eating mechanic was so hugely unpopular that even Ziets is on record saying it was a design mistake and he would try to push the sense of urgency and danger on the player by different means if he was making the game today.

[NerdBoner]

That's not what he's saying. What.

 

Another example is the player house. That's a feature I don't care for at all. It makes some kind of sense in open world RPGs like the TES games, you live those. But in a story driven linear game, why would I want to own a house? The pocket plane in BGII was cool, but that's because it was a pocket dimension, not because it was my home.

 

Didn't MotB have some core mechanic like soul harvesting and stuff? Why not add something actually interesting?

 

Oh no, let's add pointless crafting instead.

the core game is getting made, it was getting made by day 2 of the kickstarter...the rest of it is just extra stuff, if you don't like what a stretch goal is you don't have to pledge for it.

 

personally don't care about houses, adventure halls or barbarians...but I want that f*cking Cipher in the game. So I give a few bucks in hopes that we make it.

 

its impossible to please everyone, and if you even bother trying you will end up pissing everyone off...just focus on what you like about the game, and if that's nothing then leave...no need to be sad about what doesn't even exist yet.

 

 

edit: Oh, and if you guys are expecting the devs to spoil the story to see if you'll like it, regardless of what the rest of us who don't want to be spoiled think? F*CK YOU.

Edited October 5, 2012 by NerdBoner

[Merlkir]

Didn't MotB have some core mechanic like soul harvesting and stuff? Why not add something actually interesting?

 

Oh no, let's add pointless crafting instead.

 

Because the soul eating mechanic was so hugely unpopular that even Ziets is on record saying it was a design mistake and he would try to push the sense of urgency and danger on the player by different means if he was making the game today.

 

Oh, interesting. Would you happen to remember where that was?

 

First they "Chris Avellone "very tempted" to do a Planescape: Torment Kickstarter" blah-blah

http://www.eurogamer...ent-kickstarter

But then they copypaste this

 

 

What. They aren't even remotely similar. I could perhaps be convinced the artist looked at Russel Crowe for facial expressions, but that's all. BTW, that's also how artists work, they take stuff for reference, actors are pretty good, because you can find good photographs online.

The costume or the character itself doesn't seem to resemble Robin Hood in any way.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Merlkir

[evdk]

Oh, interesting. Would you happen to remember where that was?

 

 

I have braved the perils of the Codex search function and returned bearing gifts. Lo and behold:

 

http://www.formsprin...386699893296027

Edited October 5, 2012 by evdk

[Infinitron]

My problem is not "jesus obsidian, what are you doing? This sucks? Give me Torment!" it is more "Get to only hear about rudimentary boring mechanics that don't mean nothing and have stretch goals that mostly just seem like extra filler that I'd rather be without and it makes me worried about the direction of the game because how they chose to interact with the pledgers".

 

http://www.gamasutra...hp#.UG61epjMh8E

 

"It's just about managing a lot of competing expectations, and sometimes it can be overwhelming because you see so many divergent opinions," says Sawyer of the communications challenge. Some players will chime in and say they adore everything about the old Infinity Engine games -- except those core design tenets that identified them.

 

Ahem, ahem.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Infinitron

[BSoda]

First they "Chris Avellone "very tempted" to do a Planescape: Torment Kickstarter" blah-blah

http://www.eurogamer...ent-kickstarter

But then they copypaste this

 

as "concept art"

 

They are not similar ? What exactly is the point you are trying to make here ?

[Merlkir]

@evdk: Thanks!

 

@Infitron: isn't that more aimed at people complaining about realtime pause combat and top down view? He's complaining about something else.

[obyknven]

First they "Chris Avellone "very tempted" to do a Planescape: Torment Kickstarter" blah-blah

http://www.eurogamer...ent-kickstarter

But then they copypaste this

 

 

What. They aren't even remotely similar. I could perhaps be convinced the artist looked at Russel Crowe for facial expressions, but that's all. BTW, that's also how artists work, they take stuff for reference, actors are pretty good, because you can find good photographs online.

The costume or the character itself doesn't seem to resemble Robin Hood in any way.

 

Afther this

... To be honest, I don't know if I'd want to do it as a Planescape game - a better approach would be to ignore the D&D mechanics and respect what Planescape was trying to do and what the game did, and see if you can do what Fallout did when it became the spiritual successor to Wasteland.

 

If you made a game using some of the concepts of Planescape - the metaphysical ideas and the plane travel - without using the D&D mechanics, you could actually come up with a much better game. With Torment, I'd argue that the D&D base actually, in places, got in the way of the experience. It was a lot harder to make a game with those ideas in it with D&D mechanics, so much that we had to break a lot of them.

i expect something looks like this

or this

 

but take "Robin good style" bully. It's not looks close to "Last Rites" Vision doc.

No more using boring swords, daggers or bows to carve bloody swaths through opponents. Plunge scalpels into foes’ eyes, lace their food with poisonous embalming fluid, push them into man-eating pockets of ooze, sic them with sarcastic biting skulls, hurl them into razorvines, conjure burrowing rot grubs within a victim’s brain, cast spells that make them bleed from every orifice or change a person’s scent so they attract packs of hungry rats.

....

Equip stuff that scares small children

....

 

Forget fragile elves, rock-humping dwarves, worthless hobbits and with them, the mind-numbing boredom of every RPG ever released.

....

This is not high fantasy. This is avant-garde fantasy. Everything you create or draw should reflect this.

Source: http://www.rpgwatch....d=208&top=Files

 

Fell difference.

Edited October 5, 2012 by obyknven

[Infinitron]

@evdk: Thanks!

 

@Infitron: isn't that more aimed at people complaining about realtime pause combat and top down view? He's complaining about something else.

 

I doubt people who say they "adore everything about the old Infinity Engine games" are hardcore realtime-with-pause haters.

 

But we can ask him if you're curious.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Infinitron

[WorstUsernameEver]

title about flying stingrays debating philosophy with books that communicate through scent

 

well, that's a bit of a strawman, ain't it? (although I admit I'd play the **** out of THAT game!)

 

 

I've seen people argue that they wanted more or less exactly that. And you're basically complaining about a quick description that it's meant to show how broad the range of a wizard's power is. Nothing about it rules out other more diversified spells (and honestly, it's difficult to do spells that don't resembled D&D spells since they more or less did everything you can do with magic short of going the World of Darkness magic route).

[Merlkir]

@Arch-Mage. I recall an interview with Avellone where he mentioned he'd like abilities, skills and magic to be more personalized, tied to the story and specific characters. Since they had the souls-are-magic thing, I was hoping for something more original like that. (hey ho, that word again, but you know what I mean)

 

Obviously, yes, not much of the game is done at this point, that's why I think it's important to complain now. A bit like "Hey, remember that thing you said? Well, please, more of that and less of magic missiles!"

[melkathi]

A bit like "Hey, remember that thing you said? Well, please, more of that and less of magic missiles!"

 

I never could stand that spell. Fireball? Ok a ball of fire, I an see that. Acid Arrow? An arrow of acid, sure why not. Magic Missile? A missile of magic.... erm what exactly does that mean? Just sounds silly.

[TrashMan]

Didn't MotB have some core mechanic like soul harvesting and stuff? Why not add something actually interesting?

 

Oh no, let's add pointless crafting instead.

 

Because the soul eating mechanic was so hugely unpopular that even Ziets is on record saying it was a design mistake and he would try to push the sense of urgency and danger on the player by different means if he was making the game today.

 

MEh.. most people are stupid wankers - so used to being able to do anything at anytime and doing stupid things because there is no penalty.

The second you add a penalty they start throwing a childish tantrum.

 

I'd make EVERY quest a timed quest just to p*** those people off.

[Rasmudd]

oh I see what the problem is...you wanna read the last page of a book before the first is even written...gotcha.

 

Nope. But perhaps I want to read one selcted preview sentance or anything. I'm fine with not revealing much, but I'm not fine with not getting anything and having only mechanics take the spotlight. Perhaps it's just in the nature of how they set up the pledges or what they feel comfortable talking about in the updates at this point. But you would kind of expect them to talk about stuff that get you excited rather than the opposite.

[Darth Trethon]

Project Eternity is looking like it will be the ultimate perfect game(or almost perfect if it somehow ends up not getting the Cipher class) and people are still finding ways to complain about it? That's insane......why?

[Merlkir]

Project Eternity is looking like it will be the ultimate perfect game(or almost perfect if it somehow ends up not getting the Cipher class) and people are still finding ways to complain about it? That's insane......why?

 

If you read the posts, you'd learn why we don't think it's shaping up to be "the ultimate perfect game".