Tropes vs Women

[limaxophobiacq]

While saying that sex-positive/negative is the splitt among feminists* is very much a simplification; suggesting that theres one group who hates any and all sex-appeal in popular media and one that thinks the modern porn industry does nothing wrong, Anita Sarkeesian is pretty far from an ideal spokesperson.

 

As far as this pertains to the setting of PE; life in the olden days was generally kind of **** compared to now and for about half the population sexism made it even worse. I see no real reason social structures and values in this other world should be exactly the same as in western europe during the late middle ages (existence of magic etc, making this pretty much guaranteed), and would probably prefer it a bit less grim**. So I don't see why the dev team couldn't put women wherever (as sovereign rulers, warriors. etc., but also as dirt-poor desperate prostitutes) and in whatever armour they damn well please without hurting verisimilitude, Planescape and Exalted both do and they're my favorite RPG settings ever.

 

*as the guy in those videos does

 

**just a bit, probably a bit grimmer than Fearun

Edited September 24, 2012 by limaxophobiacq

[ravenshrike]

Gender inequality in human societies did not arise due to differences in average muscle mass, but rather can be traced back to the simple biological fact that it is not men, but only women who can get pregnant and birth children and breast-feed them while they're young - and that this (pregnancy and child raising) takes a long time.

 

In ancient tribal society, the death rate was very high, so in order to survive, a tribe needed to "employ" every single one of its women for the purposes of producing offspring and put a lot of effort into keeping them safe as precious "property" of the tribe. Men, on the other hand, were much more expendable and could thus be "deployed" as hunters, gatherers and warriors where they would get killed easily.

Ahhh, good ol' evo psych. The above is a concrete example of why evo psych needs to be taken out back and shot. The reality of the matter is that gender unequal mores are probably a combination of the strength differential, the energy invested in child birth, and the average temperament differential between males and females caused by brain stucture differences and testosterone/estrogen differences(anyone who says there isn't one is either willfully blind, lying, or really, really ignorant).

[Grimlorn]

I just watched the video in the OP.

 

All I can say is WOW. That girl is coo coo.

[Badmojo]

<snip>

 

Actually, I pointed out there is nothing wrong with targeting a particular group to cater too because there isn't. Trying to cater to everyone is a recipe for disaster, you simply cannot please everyone nor should you.

 

"Women don't play RPGs, so there's no need to make RPGs that (contain features which) cater to women."

 

Go back in time a little bit, and this becomes :

 

"Women don't read books, so there's no need to write books that (contains elements which) cater to women."

 

"Women don't do activity X, so there's no need for activity X to cater listen to the concerns of women."

 

I don't want to prolong the point, but really, THIS is one of the reasons why yes, you should try to cater to women. They're 50% of the population, after all, and perhaps once more women has figured out that they don't have to like barbies because all games for girls are about barbies and Babysittingz, RPGs might find a new market, sell more, and we might be in less of a predicament where 90% of games are made solely---not just cater---to the whims of teenaged males. Older, wiser males benefit, too! Opening genres up to women has led to diversification of said genre through the ages, while closing off a genre tends to simplify it to a greater degree. It's got to start SOMEWHERE.

 

See this is the other examples I hate. Oh, we are supressing women by not making them anything but equel in EVERY piece of work. Regardless if its real or fictional. Then we have the argument that opening up games will have more women interested in it...um, games are already open to women. There are whole gaming sections that are dedicated to it, in fact there are gaming groups that only make games for women. Now, the argument that if rpgs were more open to women they will magically come is just silly. I see this argument used in every debate like this and its nothing more than wishful thinking. There are more women playing hardcore games, but not by much, until we get some real numbers its debatable. However, I love that to get these *potential* women players, we have to take stuff away that a lot of *real* old school players like.

 

Let me ask this back to you : did you read what I wrote? I never said we need to make women equal in every piece of work. You're only reading what you wish to hear.

 

What I said, specifically, is that it is important that women's concerns are listened to when creating a piece of work, and not just shot down because 'it's not for them'. Because it will NEVER be for them, in that case. This does not necessarily imply that 'all women in games must be treated with equity'. That's idiotic. Not all women in books are empowered, and it's important that they are not empowered where they're not supposed to be, setting-wise. What it DOES imply is that, one CANNOT just dismiss their concerns just because it's 'not their place.'

 

What do stuff that 'real (male) oldschool players like' do you have to take away to listen to women's concerns, exactly? Is 'historical inequity for women' that important for oldschool RPG players? Skimpy armor? Sex-object women? Is that what you look for in RPGs? Is this important to being oldschool? Are you suggesting that by making RPGs appeal to women, they all have to contain features like Facebook games, barbie games? Can we have no discussion of gender at all, and women JUST have to be unequal because RPGs are all based on Medieval Europe and that's just the way it was? What are oldschool players losing that is so important that they cannot afford to lose, that they can dismiss the other 50% of the human population?

 

I don't think that's what you want to say, but once again, listen to what you're actually saying. It's very easy to say that 'they don't want what I want, and what I want are not what they want' when you never ask or try to offer what they want in the first place.

 

And yes, if games of any type appeal more to women, they WILL 'magically' come, because they're not as predisposed towards the whole 'women don't play games' trope as you'd like to believe. It's been that way for EVERY SINGLE KIND OF MEDIA in the past. I don't see why it will not be for games. What is so special about RPGs that it defies every prior historical example?

 

Also, if you say 'games are already open to women, there are groups that already make games dedicated to women', HAHAHA. Oh my god, that is RICH. What games would those be, pray tell? Babyz? Dress up? Cooking Mama? Facebook games? Don't say the Sims, btw, that's made for both genders, women just decide to play them more.The otome games made by Japan doesn't count, btw.

 

But I suppose you are set in your views, because that's how opinions are. I will sound like the feminist bastard trying to convince you that P:E need to have politcally correct female empowerment, when I am only trying to say that 'dismissing female viewpoints on traditionally male subjects because they're female is a fallacy'. And you will continue to insist that the old way is the ONLY way to be, because they offer what you like, so why should they change? This is a subject with strong opinions. It's because it's a subject with strong opinions not liable to change, that it has became a cultural issue.

 

I've said all that I wish to say on the subject, and may others who did not press the skip button at the sight of the post make their own judgements.

 

Funny, I am pretty sure most of us paying for the game because we want the old school style game. That includes putting in controversal topics and NOT being a soap box for peoples version of political correctness. Do NOT say read my words again, I know what I wrote, read your own. You say listen to women, but how can I do that when all I hear are the rabid feminest demanding that they do it there way and only there way and if you don't then you are a baby eating, dog kicking nazi, mysogist, rape supporter.

 

This whole thread is turning to poison, it should be locked or moved to another forum to keep from driving people off who are sick of seeing this debate for MONTHS on every website.

[Monkcrab]

I just watched the video in the OP.

 

All I can say is WOW. That girl is coo coo.

 

It's a massive ball of 'oh god stop making my side look like raging idiots facepalm cringe headwall how did people donate to her again'. Yes.

 

There's searching for examples of inequity in media, and there's flying off the handle for everything that does not make women super-empowered and super-capable. Both of which are just as bad.

[Elerond]

Getting back on topic, I (non-scientifically) noted that for DS3, criticism of Katarina's character design far outweighed criticism of Anjali's design despite the fact that Anjali spends half of the game effectively naked. I think this speaks to the question of, "Does this fit the character?" and how people look at different designs.

 

I think reson for most of criticism comes from that view point that Katarina's outfit is very inpractical, which only purpose for viewer look to emphasize her assets. Whereas Anjali's human form has pratical looking outfit and her archon form don't radiate nakedness or sexuality like Katarina's outfit, which makes it look surprisingly decent.

 

So they see that Katarina is made as eye-candy for players and Anjali is designed appropriately fit games setting or at least larger part of the critics see it so, I think.

[Monkcrab]

Funny, I am pretty sure most of us paying for the game because we want the old school style game. That includes putting in controversal topics and NOT being a soap box for peoples version of political correctness. Do NOT say read my words again, I know what I wrote, read your own. You say listen to women, but how can I do that when all I hear are the rabid feminest demanding that they do it there way and only there way and if you don't then you are a baby eating, dog kicking nazi, mysogist, rape supporter.

 

This whole thread is turning to poison, it should be locked or moved to another forum to keep from driving people off who are sick of seeing this debate for MONTHS on every website.

 

How is putting in controversial topics INTELLIGENTLY being a soapbox? If any way, that's one of the few ways to avoid turning it into a soapbox. That's all anyone's asking. That if there is female inequity, it be treated with respect and thoughtfulness, and not 'just because it's the way things are, shuddup, this is a medium for a male audience'.

 

Not dismissing viewpoints in a debate =/= do whatever we say or you're a rabid propagandist.

 

Nobody ever said anyone's a rape supporter, nazi, or baby eaters. Well, maybe lord of flies, but he/she seems to be trolling. There's women here asking for other things. You're just not listening to them because you're only listening to what you wish to hear, i.e. what confirms your beliefs that you're right.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Monkcrab

[Grimlorn]

I just watched the video in the OP.

 

All I can say is WOW. That girl is coo coo.

 

It's a massive ball of 'oh god stop making my side look like raging idiots facepalm cringe headwall how did people donate to her again'. Yes.

 

There's searching for examples of inequity in media, and there's flying off the handle for everything that does not make women super-empowered and super-capable. Both of which are just as bad.

Well she did get 150k for doing probably a month of part time work. Maybe I'll do my own video series on how men are oppressing women in video games. I'm a man so it should be more controversial and my voice for females rights should be more poignant.

[Tauron]

It wouldnt suprise me that first chauvinist, was a guy with broken heart. That became more convincing watching videos of that feminist character. Some women just do that to you. The Dark Side is strong with them that way. Interesting thread, but is there any "conclusion" to it? Can something prodoctive come out of it?

Edited September 24, 2012 by Tauron

[ravenshrike]

back when men were real men, women were real women, and misogyny in this fantasy setting with elves, wizards, gods and dragons was a realistic portrayal of medieval culture (note: realistic here means a reproduction of the worst sexual mores of the worst of gangster rap)!

So no Gorean sexual mores or half-human/half-ungulate retarded prostitutes. Good to know.

 

Agreeing with you is only attractive to People With Bad Opinions. Objectively speaking

Please, feel free to explain how misogynistic writing is appealing to people who are not misogynists. Go on. I'm waiting.

 

 

I point you to the below link

 

NOTE: anyone with triggers regarding rape et. al. should probably not go to the below link, let alone read the books described therein. You have been warned.

http://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html

Lately, some folks on my f-list have been looking at Lord King Bad profic. brown_betty gave us LEOPARD LORD, and cereta reviewed THE SHEIK, and burger_eater pointed me to Smart Bitches, Trashy Books's take on Shayla Black's DECADENT. These books, it should be admitted, are deeply awful, and as portrayals of their authors' ids, they're more than a little alarming. You don't want to look, but you can't look away. The awfulness becomes sublime.

 

So why am I commenting about this? Well, because I feel a little like Richard Dreyfuss in JAWS, during the scar scene: "I got that beat. I got that beat."

...

 

You think that paragraph alone would make this book awesomely bad, but no. IT GETS MORE SO. Yes, you will be horrified by a lot of this, because Mike Harmon's adventures are by turns awesomely horrific and horrifically awesome; I freely confess that I cannot stop reading these books, because *I have to see what Ringo does next.* I do, however, have a finely-tuned defense mechanism: whenever something trips my circuit breaker, causing me to cringe away from the page, I utter aloud a cry that resets my noggin. You will probably need it yourself, so I provide it here, as a public service: "OH JOHN RINGO NO."

 

GHOST is Ringo's own admitted Lord King Badfic, his id run wild. By his own account, he was trying to write several books he was actually contracted for, but GHOST kept nudging at him, and finally he just wrote the damn thing to *make it go away* so he could get back to fulfilling his contracts. Ringo locked the spewings of his id away on his hard drive, until he mentioned in passing on an online forum that yeah, he'd written another book, but it was *awful* and would never see the light of day. Naturally, folks were curious, and when Ringo posted a sample, nobody was more surprised than him to find that the response was, more often than not, "Hey, man, I'd buy this."

 

So his publisher put it out, and the books are now doing pretty well for them. I'm sure this is a pleasant surprise if you're Ringo or his publisher, but it's also got to be a little embarrassing; he's committed the literary equivalent of charging money for folks to watch him roll naked in a pile of dead and smelly fish. And then being begged for encores. As of this writing, I have only the first three books in the series, because dammit, I will buy crap, but I refuse to buy crap in hardcover. That's *expensive.* I mean, I could be spending that money on *guns.*

 

 

Also, would you consider LKH's writings mysogynistic?

[Badmojo]

Funny, I am pretty sure most of us paying for the game because we want the old school style game. That includes putting in controversal topics and NOT being a soap box for peoples version of political correctness. Do NOT say read my words again, I know what I wrote, read your own. You say listen to women, but how can I do that when all I hear are the rabid feminest demanding that they do it there way and only there way and if you don't then you are a baby eating, dog kicking nazi, mysogist, rape supporter.

 

This whole thread is turning to poison, it should be locked or moved to another forum to keep from driving people off who are sick of seeing this debate for MONTHS on every website.

 

How is putting in controversial topics INTELLIGENTLY being a soapbox? If any way, that's one of the few ways to avoid turning it into a soapbox. That's all anyone's asking. That if there is female inequity, it be treated with respect and thoughtfulness, and not 'just because it's the way things are, shuddup, this is a medium for a male audience'.

 

Not dismissing viewpoints in a debate =/= do whatever we say or you're a rabid propagandist.

 

Nobody ever said anyone's a rape supporter, nazi, or baby eaters. Well, maybe lord of flies, but he/she seems to be trolling. There's women here asking for other things. You're just not listening to them because you're only listening to what you wish to hear, i.e. what confirms your beliefs that you're right.

 

And you are not listening to me. I do NOT want this in the game, I am sick to death of seeing all games treat everybody exactly the same wether you are male/famle/human/other besides some minor cosmetic differences. I am tired of seeing fictional worlds where there is no conflict of the sexis or bigotry because developers/publishers try to avoid the issues and the games are some PG-13 disney setting with more blood. There can be games where we all get along, I am not saying there ever can't, but they should NOT be in EVERY SINGLE GAME, which is what the feminest crowd is screaming for and nothing less will do.

 

Let me ask you, should EVERY game try to cater to everybody? Is there anything wrong with creating games (or other entertainment) targeted for specific groups, especially when that group is your core group.

[Monkcrab]

<snip>

 

And you are not listening to me. I do NOT want this in the game, I am sick to death of seeing all games treat everybody exactly the same wether you are male/famle/human/other besides some minor cosmetic differences. I am tired of seeing fictional worlds where there is no conflict of the sexis or bigotry because developers/publishers try to avoid the issues and the games are some PG-13 disney setting with more blood. There can be games where we all get along, I am not saying there ever can't, but they should NOT be in EVERY SINGLE GAME, which is what the feminest crowd is screaming for and nothing less will do.

 

Let me ask you, should EVERY game try to cater to everybody? Is there anything wrong with creating games (or other entertainment) targeted for specific groups, especially when that group is your core group.

 

........................and treating women's issues with respect means 'no sexual conflict or bigotry' HOW? If anything, a realistic take on it is just the opposite!

 

Who are these hypothetical feminists demanding that we have games where 'we all get along'? I see perhaps one, maybe two people in here asking for that. What's this supposedly impossible-to-satisfy feminist crowd?

 

I NEVER said every game should cater to everybody. I SAID that every game has an interest in taking the CONCERNS of women into consideration. Women are an incredibly diverse group, just like men, and if you think women are a nebulous 'everybody', you're doing it wrong.

 

All I said in my original argument is that it's wrong to 'blithely ignore women's concerns, just because it's for men and will forever be for men because we're never opening it up to women, shuddup, even though women play this too.' Yes, it's wrong. I never demanded that women be equal in the games, and many others here didn't. And yet, they're all demanding feminists, because how dare they complain that RPGs should not all be about male players!

 

...........all right. I should REALLY be done, now. Arguing with this is not going to convince you, you're not going to convince me, and what we are really trying to do NOW is to make the other look like the unreasonable idiot in this argument. I think you've said your defense, I've said mine, let the other readers be the judge and the jury of what we said. I will not reply to this argument again.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Monkcrab

[Grimlorn]

It wouldnt suprise me that first chauvinist, was a guy with broken heart. That became more convincing watching videos of that feminist character. Some women just do that to you. The Dark Side is strong with them that way. Interesting thread, but is there any "conclusion" to it? Can something prodoctive come out of it?

Men and women can never be equal. Our differences have come from thousands of years of evolution and are biological.

 

The woman in the OP is complaining about something that exists not only in video games but society itself. So singling out the video game industry is incredibly stupid. But hey she got 7,000 people to give her $150k.

 

Really women only have the not getting equal pay for equal work thing to complain about. All the rest is BS. And there is nothing productive that can come out of talking about this because everyone already knows that we can never really be equal. The truth isn't going to change.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Anaeme]

I hope Obsidian and the developers of Project Eternity don't get bogged down by arrant nonsense like this.

 

 

They should make a game they love to play and it will be good for us all.

 

 

When you start allowing political correctness and all manner of similar considerations poison the creative process, the result is always a DISASTER

 

I hope they dont pander to anyone,..they should just make the game they 'd like to play

 

 

Again raising feminism as an issue in the context of this game is arrant nonsense...

Edited September 24, 2012 by Anaeme

[Badmojo]

I love VTMB and shudder what would have happened if that game had gone the politically correct route, I like how men and women are treated differently.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqiFAm7R-ZY

Edited September 24, 2012 by Badmojo

[Elerond]

I think treating women's issues with respect means that women look less like this

 

 

 

 

 

and more like this

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2012 by Elerond

[Badmojo]

I think treating women's issues with respect means that women look less like this

 

http://wallpaperbase...Wallpaper-3.jpg

 

and more like this

 

 

 

 

 

Your top link does not work

[Elerond]

 

 

Your top link does not work

 

Probably it was bloking for out site links. But now it should show

[Grimlorn]

I think treating women's issues with respect means that women look less like this

 

 

 

 

 

and more like this

 

 

 

 

Why not just wear clothes like it's the medieval age? Why not have the rights they had back then, sewing, cleaning and cooking all day long.

 

One of the reasons women wore a ton of clothes like that was because women were looked down on by society for showing skin. So then you'll have women complaining about there being nothing wrong with a woman's sexuality and her showing it off and how it's empowering. It's not like the majority of women today don't show some form of cleavage, wear tight clothes so you can see their curves, show legs off, etc.

 

It amazes me people can complain about this stuff in video games, when we see this everywhere in society. TV, movies, magazines women purchase, etc. Women sure as hell aren't fighting all those things. They consume all of it daily.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Badmojo]

I think treating women's issues with respect means that women look less like this

 

 

 

 

 

and more like this

 

 

 

 

 

But, what if I want SOME women to be like the one above (not nude, but sexually alluring). It IS a fantasy setting so that we can play out our fantasies. Not all obviously, but some would be cool.

 

The only issue I really have about the second one is that the clothes just look ugly.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Badmojo

[Monkcrab]

It wouldnt suprise me that first chauvinist, was a guy with broken heart. That became more convincing watching videos of that feminist character. Some women just do that to you. The Dark Side is strong with them that way. Interesting thread, but is there any "conclusion" to it? Can something prodoctive come out of it?

Men and women can never be equal. Our differences have come from thousands of years of evolution and are biological.

 

The woman in the OP is complaining about something that exists not only in video games but society itself. So singling out the video game industry is incredibly stupid. But hey she got 7,000 people to give her $150k.

 

Really women only have the not getting equal pay for equal work thing to complain about. All the rest is BS. And there is nothing productive that can come out of talking about this because everyone already knows that we can never really be equal. The truth isn't going to change.

 

Nope, men and women will never be the same. But we can definitely do more to take the other side's pros and cons into consideration, both for male and female sides, so I wouldn't say it's entirely BS.

 

There's a way/time/place to discuss it, though, and Sarkesian is doing it so, so wrong.

 

p.s. I think women wearing skimpy clothing for the purpose of sexuality is rather fine, tbh. It's when everyone's wearing skimpy armor just because they're 'nicer to look at' and leaving gaping holes over their cleavages that it becomes a problem.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Monkcrab

[incubus9]

I think that the issue of women's rights should be handled by in-game lore and be balanced among cultures. Just like in the real world, we have places where women are allowed to vote, go to school, and hold jobs. In some places they are beaten and stoned for minor crimes. It would be juvenile to turn all females into some kind of Conan the Barbarian sex symbol, but it would be unrealistic to make them all second-class citizens. The inclusion of magic would also be a big cultural rebalancing since physical strength would no longer be the only way in which to assert dominance over another.

[Elerond]

I think treating women's issues with respect means that women look less like this

 

 

 

 

 

and more like this

 

 

 

 

 

But, what if I want SOME women to be like the one above (not nude, but sexually alluring). It IS a fantasy setting so that we can play out our fantasies. Not all obviously, but some would be cool.

 

The only issue I really have about the second one is that the clothes just look ugly.

 

Maybe right answer is somewhere middle of those two pictures (über male-fantasy and reality)? Or it least little bit closer.

[limaxophobiacq]

Really women only have the not getting equal pay for equal work thing to complain about. All the rest is BS. And there is nothing productive that can come out of talking about this because everyone already knows that we can never really be equal. The truth isn't going to change.

 

No we wont be the same but saying that in-equal pay is the singular discrimination against women in society is just plain wrong. Sure there are biological differences but our culture (actually, most every culture) encodes us with values that disadvantage women in more ways than that. Just for one thing we raise children drastically different depending on gender (or do you think there is biological cause for little girls to prefer pink and boys to prefer blue?), and attempts not to do this have shown that while biological differences in temperament exist (esp. post puberty when we get all those hormones) girls and boys who are raised the same show much less difference in behavior (they did this in kindergarden not far from were I live, once hey got old enough for school the teachers thought the boys were unusual well behaved while the girls were "wild" when the truth was they behaved pretty much the same).

Edited September 24, 2012 by limaxophobiacq

[Dragoonlordz]

I hope Obsidian and the developers of Project Eternity don't get bogged down by arrant nonsense like this.

 

 

They should make a game they love to play and it will be good for us all.

 

 

When you start allowing political correctness and all manner of similar considerations poison the creative process, the result is always a DISASTER

 

I hope they dont pander to anyone,..they should just make the game they 'd like to play

 

 

Again raising feminism as an issue in the context of this game is arrant nonsense...

 

I very much agree.

 

Like I said it seems to me there are some here that think the game should conform to their social and political stances despite the harsh reality of the struggle to survive, genocide, murder, prostitution; the reality of some women using their feminine traits to gain advantage in a world filled with strife I am sure will be reflected in the game. That somehow they wan't everyone as equal rights or no racism in that dark and harsh world, no sexism or women that would do anything to survive just like there being men who would kill and butcher people for sport in such a world (don't see any one claiming male murders or rapists in such a world being gender stereotypes). People who think that the values in the game among these uncivilised and non-evolved societies should somehow mirror their utopian level of morality and social justice... I find it strange to say the least because the massive amount of disbelief that would create and destruction of immersion would be immense.

 

Then their are those who are simply jumping on the bandwagon just because of the armour females might wear in the game, I don't see those same people whining about how men are running around with mere loincloth and giant swords being unacceptable to them which is simple hypocrisy. There doesn't have to be silly armours but it has nothing to do with women only, so people using it as example of sexism is wrong. It's just nonsensical armour thats all for any gender. You can't go around saying why do women not cover up in full plate yet ignore when male protaganists do not either. The fact is also there will be some women dressed in very little in such a world filled with hardships and power struggles trying to get ahead and use what they have to gain advantage, it makes sense.

 

In such worlds equality is far from reality and any game with such setting must keep true to the reality of that world, not the ideals of this one.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Dragoonlordz