Magic in a mature setting

[1varangian]

I was really excited to read Project Eternity will deal with mature themes. Too many RPG's these days don't seem to be taking themselves seriously and therefore lack the emotional impact a strong story could potentially make.

 

I'm hoping a more mature approach extends itself to magic as well. In a mature setting, magic and power should always come with a cost. The extreme costs being corruption, insanity and potentially physical manifestations of the former. The cost of using even simpler magic should be such that casting spells would always be a choice with consequence. It makes magic feel much more powerful and awesome when casting a single lightning bolt actually turns the tide of combat as opposed to mages freely spamming weak magic attacks every round.

 

This would translate into a magic system where you pay for your everyday spells in stamina or fatigue, something that you wouldn't be able to regenerate after each encounter. Casting spells would gradually weaken the mage until a proper rest can be had. Reaching too far could drop the mage unconscious or even kill them (sacrificing themselves to save another perhaps). More powerful spells would require sacrifice of some kind, perhaps a deal or pact with a demon or a powerful entity. Delving too deep into dark magics would result in corruption.. something that would make mages feared and controversial - a great tool for drama.

 

Powerful magical feats like resurrection should come at a terrible price.. e.g. the resurrected person coming back as a vegetable or insane.. or having to sacrifice another to transfer the life force.. and still bringing someone back as a vegetable. Another tool for a strong emotional story.

 

Potions should follow the same rules with unwanted side effects instead of being bought and consumed like ale. Abundant use of healing potions can really make for lackluster combat.. think of Dragon Age Origins when you finally meet your nemesis in a climactic duel... and only win because you have 15 greater healing potions in your pack - massive anti-climax when you clearly would have lost without a ridiculous amount of potions. So I'm hoping the combat, healing and injury systems will be designed with this in mind.

 

On the same note, I hope magic items will be rare and unique and crafted for a specific purpose. Too much magical junk everywhere kind of just makes every piece less awesome.

 

I'm really hoping the devs are considering the above. This game deserves a magic system that is much more than just repeated fireworks and another way to mindlessly kill things.

 

This game has the potential to be truly great.

[The Sharmat]

I just hope that magic interacts logically with the world around it. If people can levitate, why aren't their skyways or floating carriages or some such, for example?

[Badmojo]

I don't like the idea of spells coming at a price, magic is the only thing mages know and this is a fast way of making magic unplayable/nurfed/unfun. I DO like the idea of making pacts with demons/deities to gain powers that surpass normal, and I like the idea of having to take a life to bring back a life. Kill someone and capture their soul/lifeforce to be used in some way. Like a single soul can summon 4 skeletons, or two zombies, or has the power to bring someone back to life fine. However, for the high power stuff like, a vampire requires 2 souls, bringing back a body of a slain enemy as an undead thrall with their skills/memories/powers back to fight for you, 5 souls to bring back a super thrall, the chracter is reanimated, but the level goes up to mach the characters, the powers/skills get bonuses and they get regenerative healing. And say 10 souls allow for the zombie apocolypse, summons one zombie, when it kills something that thing comes back, and when it kills something..etc

[Badmojo]

I just hope that magic interacts logically with the world around it. If people can levitate, why aren't their skyways or floating carriages or some such, for example?

 

Yea, I like magic that has some logic and explanation on how it works, but I want it to be flexible to allow different types of magic and not tie itself into a corner so it prevents some cool spell from working.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Badmojo

[The Sharmat]

I just like gameplay and story segregation to be avoided where possible. See: "Why didn't they just give Aeris a phoenix down?" Though of course it's impossible and probably undesirable to avoid it entirely.

[Delterius]

The Kickstarter video makes it sound that the setting isn't exactly Low Magic, but it doesn't sound exactly High Magic either. Something in between and that can mean a infinite amount of things.

 

So while Magic (in IE games, at least) is certainly more powerful and more limited than in many recent RPGs (not just Storywise, but also Game Mechanics wise), I'd say it could certainly become both more powerful, more limited and less powerful at the same time.

 

More limited because, maybe, we won't have as many magical items and as much spellcasting potential as even in the IE games.

 

More powerful because 'lesser' spell effects, such as a Lightning Bolt, could be made closer to their expected destructive power (I for one don't expect common bandits to survive 5 of those without magic of their own).

 

And still less powerful because 'higher' spell effects could be made unavaiable or extremely rare. I never liked the concept of Resurrection much. A game is never going to implement it rarely enough to be credible, and its clunky in the story.

 

Mind you that Evil Magic corruption isn't really necessary. Power changes people and that storyline isn't particularly rare. However, given that Magic is now correlated to a person's Soul, Evil Magic is bound to be.

 

I just hope that magic interacts logically with the world around it. If people can levitate, why aren't their skyways or floating carriages or some such, for example?

 

I suppose same thing about Teleportation. If spellcasters are relatively rare; most people (spellcasters included) actually are low levelled; Levitation is treated as a powerful spell, particularly extrenuous and/or of limited duration, then not only most mages can't use it, but it isn't cost effective.

 

I don't like the idea of spells coming at a price, magic is the only thing mages know and this is a fast way of making magic unplayable/nurfed/unfun.

 

I disagree. If Magic is neither costly nor limited, then magic is Nerfed to be in line with martial artists. I for one, consider it truly un-fun when I can constantly use Magic but its pathetically weak. Or worse, when Magic is powerful, true, but then non-Magical bushwackers are superhero entities from the start, capable of tearing the ground apart with their swords.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Delterius

[Ancoron]

I don't like the idea of spells coming at a price, magic is the only thing mages know and this is a fast way of making magic unplayable/nurfed/unfun. I DO like the idea of making pacts with demons/deities to gain powers that surpass normal, and I like the idea of having to take a life to bring back a life. Kill someone and capture their soul/lifeforce to be used in some way. Like a single soul can summon 4 skeletons, or two zombies, or has the power to bring someone back to life fine. However, for the high power stuff like, a vampire requires 2 souls, bringing back a body of a slain enemy as an undead thrall with their skills/memories/powers back to fight for you, 5 souls to bring back a super thrall, the chracter is reanimated, but the level goes up to mach the characters, the powers/skills get bonuses and they get regenerative healing. And say 10 souls allow for the zombie apocolypse, summons one zombie, when it kills something that thing comes back, and when it kills something..etc

 

I agree with this one more magic should not be cost to much but some sacrifices of souls and demon deals could make playing a spellcast more intressting. But i would say that for low level magic there should not be some kind of sacrife only for the more powerfull or possible world changing ones.

[The Sharmat]

If magic is common and simply a matter of learning I'd expect that the nobility/leadership of any given nation would all have magic to some degree or another, for the same reason that in medieval Europe most of the landowning aristocracy would fight as heavy cavalry. They have the money for the necessary equipment and the spare time to train because they aren't subsistence farmers.

 

That doesn't seem to be the case here though. If magic requires a "strong soul" then it sounds like most people simply could never have it.

[Delterius]

That doesn't seem to be the case here though. If magic requires a "strong soul" then it sounds like most people simply could never have it.

 

However, the point begins as why Mages do not hold political, economic and spiritual power in the first place. I can totally see the very concept of nobility promptly spelling about mage in a world like that. And I certainly don't know enough about the setting to answer that question reliably.

[Ancoron]

Then we need a meaning for a strong soul. A strong soul can be quit a few things. It can be strong because it never begs down or it can be strong because

it is always tempert with. And in this line of thougt it would be great if you could kind of forge your soul with magic or something like that.

 

You start out extending the boundrys of the space you can control with magic and you can only influence your on body at first make it strong, faster etc.

 

or you can use rituels and sacrifes to strenghen your soul with the souls of other people or something like that.

[The Sharmat]

Well yeah, just because you have a strong soul doesn't necessarily mean your offspring will. I'd expect such an inheritance based system to rely far more on wealth acquired by superhuman ancestors, which would be a volatile thing since it's vulnerable to market collapse and mis-management. Perhaps a more Roman/Athenian sort of deal where there is a strong middle class plus an aristocracy with a certain degree of power; but compared to say, medieval France it's quite vestigial and doesn't exclude upward mobility.

[Continuity]

I want a vancian magic system in the game, but there needs to be a better resting mechanic than in the IE games. I am pretty sure Sawyer wrote something about having some ideas for new mechanics. Maybe the games could do without vancian casting, but I kind of feels like it wouldn't be the same without it.

[The Sharmat]

I've never liked the vancian magic system and I really hope they don't use it.

[Delterius]

I want a vancian magic system in the game, but there needs to be a better resting mechanic than in the IE games. I am pretty sure Sawyer wrote something about having some ideas for new mechanics. Maybe the games could do without vancian casting, but I kind of feels like it wouldn't be the same without it.

 

Agreed, a Vancian-like system is a must have. They cited the Infinity Engine for inspiration, after all.

[1varangian]

Consider that if magic is very abundant and low cost, the spells have to be nerfed down for balance reasons.

 

I would much rather cast few spells that would be powerful and awesome than churn out weak spells ad infinitum. On the visual side of things even the most impressive Fireball gets old really fast if it's tossed around too often... and magic just becomes less magical.

 

Magic shouldn't have to be the only thing mages know. Fight with a sword or staff a la Gandalf.. and when you cast a spell let it be something significant. Ok I would like to see more spellcasting than Gandalf in LotR but much less than say Dragon Age.

 

I also like the idea that using magic requires a special gift of sorcery or channeling so not everyone can learn it. It's supposed to be magical, not mundane.

[1varangian]

I really hope they won't use a vancian magic system.

 

Firstly, it encourages you to memorize only combat spells. You never know when you might need that Knock, but a Fireball will always be useful. And then when your mage has his time to shine with a utility spell, you simply don't have it memorized because of all the times it was a wasted slot.

 

Secondly, it makes no sense why you have the power to cast 3 different spells but not 3 casts of the first spell if it happens to be the one you really need. Suddenly forgetting how to recast that Fireball never made much sense to me. "Preparing" spells for single casts has a very scientific feel to it.. it's like an alchemist making a firebomb. Nothing wrong with that but I like my mages more flexible even if it would mean narrowing down their powers.

 

Whatever they end up with I really hope they only have one system for spellcasting. No arcane / divine / wizard / sorcerer / warlock / I couldn't decide how it works -kind of mess. Just magic and one way to use it.

[mkreku]

I wish they would skip magic altogether. Why would anyone wear armour, ride horses, build machines, grow crops, hunt animals, even walk up stairs, if we had magic? Why not just cast a spell and get it over with? Why invent matches if you have magic? Why fight with weapons if someone can wave his hand and kill ten people? Just read some words from a piece of paper and suddenly you have the ability to fly or destroy mountains or breathe underwater.. and nothing ever needs an explanation, at least not a logical one, because it's magic!!!

 

The whole idea of magic is just so stupid.

 

/vent

[The Sharmat]

Depends on how the magic works. If it's really rare you'll still need all those things.

[JayDGee]

I think power should come at a price. If someone is able to bend reality and create something from nothing then there should be a cost.

I like the Idea that its tied to the soul of the individual. You overuse your power you risk becoming a soulless monster. Also makes evil gits stealing souls a much more sensible arrangement.

[Troller]

Magic in a mature setting: what I expect to see is blood, and limbs flying around while things explode at least...bodies getting destroyed by acids, screams of pain

but really I dont think magic should be much OP like in most of modern games, magic should play like what an explosion specialist in the army would feel like, you are a regular human being but with a vast knowledge on how things are going to blow, or maybe some hypnotism

[Delterius]

Magic in a mature setting: what I expect to see is blood, and limbs flying around while things explode at least...bodies getting destroyed by acids, screams of pain

but really I dont think magic should be much OP like in most of modern games, magic should play like what an explosion specialist in the army would feel like, you are a regular human being but with a vast knowledge on how things are going to blow, or maybe some hypnotism

Well, I am of the opinion that magic should be as powerful as you'd expect but at the same time limited (so that it isn't overpowered).

 

 

I really hope they won't use a vancian magic system.

 

Firstly, it encourages you to memorize only combat spells. You never know when you might need that Knock, but a Fireball will always be useful. And then when your mage has his time to shine with a utility spell, you simply don't have it memorized because of all the times it was a wasted slot.

 

Secondly, it makes no sense why you have the power to cast 3 different spells but not 3 casts of the first spell if it happens to be the one you really need. Suddenly forgetting how to recast that Fireball never made much sense to me. "Preparing" spells for single casts has a very scientific feel to it.. it's like an alchemist making a firebomb. Nothing wrong with that but I like my mages more flexible even if it would mean narrowing down their powers.

 

Whatever they end up with I really hope they only have one system for spellcasting. No arcane / divine / wizard / sorcerer / warlock / I couldn't decide how it works -kind of mess. Just magic and one way to use it.

 

Firstly, you're wrong. Vancian systems do not encourage the use of combat only spells. 'Search and Destroy' RPGs do. If you play a good pen and paper and all you've got is Fireballs, you're missing out on so much - friends don't let friends specialize in Evocation.

 

Secondly, sacrificing overall versatility for practical versatility is called spontaneous spellcasting and it exists within a Vancian spell system.

 

And you... can't... decide how it works? What?

Edited September 16, 2012 by Delterius

[Badmojo]

I wish they would skip magic altogether. Why would anyone wear armour, ride horses, build machines, grow crops, hunt animals, even walk up stairs, if we had magic? Why not just cast a spell and get it over with? Why invent matches if you have magic? Why fight with weapons if someone can wave his hand and kill ten people? Just read some words from a piece of paper and suddenly you have the ability to fly or destroy mountains or breathe underwater.. and nothing ever needs an explanation, at least not a logical one, because it's magic!!!

 

The whole idea of magic is just so stupid.

 

/vent

 

Because its cool, people can't do it in real life and like playing a character who does, not everybody wants to play sword carrying connan character. Most games have magic of some sort, although it will be some advanced science in other games. The idea is to do things you cannot do in real life.

[Grayman]

What does magic mean for the people in this world? It is common but not everyone has it so what about the people who do. Are they idolized, feared, or marginalized? What role in society do they play? Is some low level magic used by this society everyday and what are its effects? Do people hide their magic or do they try and act more strong souled than they are?

 

What does a strong soul mean? Does that person live a lengthy life eventually deadened by outliving many who they loved and cared for but those people had to come to face the reality that they will not live as long as their strong souled companion because through fate, determination, or luck they are weaker person?

 

How would 20% of society being able to cast a knock or light spell change that world?

 

What is happening in these peoples lives for the last 10 to 20 years? Rock and Roll, civil rights, anti war counter cultures, environmentalism, terrorism, financial collapse? There are too many ancient prophesies in games where people worry about what happened 1000 years ago.

[Delterius]

What does magic mean for the people in this world? It is common but not everyone has it so what about the people who do. Are they idolized, feared, or marginalized? What role in society do they play? Is some low level magic used by this society everyday and what are its effects? Do people hide their magic or do they try and act more strong souled than they are?

Worthy questions that are for the devs to answer. We can't even speculate, for one we don't know if 20% of society can cast lowly knock, I myself would lower the number considerably (if it was my setting).

[Wintersong]

And here I was thinking that this thread was about the Book of Erotic Fantasy...

 

What I dislike about magic systems is how mages/wizards reach high levels of power too fast. Yeah, ok, they are heroes but still... I'd suppose that someone specialized in just swinging his sword should peak in power a lot faster than a magic user, who should require more decades to master a power that can basically alter the reality (anti-matter fireballs, gravity alterating leveitation spells, brain chemistry alterating charm spells,...) with all the risks about learning the spells (without killing themselves in the process) and despite some possible formal training to reduce "accidents".

 

In any case, if magic is part of the world, I would expect to see that properly reflected. Is magic forbidden? Are some disciplined banned? Which is the impact of magic use on "mundane" technologies? Do they use magitek?