Harl's top 10 CRPG list of all time

[TheHarlequin]

With the end of the year I decided it was time to take stock. I complied what I feel is the top 10 most influential and biggest impact CRPG's since the 80s. The ones that pushed the genre forward and closed the gap between PnP & PC gaming. Feel free to comment;

 

http://www.wodnews.net/Articles/Blogs/tabi...f-all-time.aspx

[Big Bottom]

That's a pretty good list imo...I own all of those except FONV and agree with a lot of your choices.

[Volourn]

" I complied what I feel is the top 10 most influential and biggest impact CRPG's since the 80s."

 

You are better off saying it's your favorite or top 10 list not most influential and biggest impact CRPGs since the 80s.

 

How else do you explain putting FO:NV on the list but not FO3? (for the record, I loathe FO3 and enjoy FO:NV immenseley but FO:NV was/is not more influential or had bigger impact than FO3.

 

How else do you explain Skyrim but no MW? MW is what put Bethesda on the super suiccessful map instead of them just being a solidlyu successful company. Skyrim just continues their money making ways.

 

How else do you expalin NWN2 existence on the list but NWN1 (whether one likes it or not) when NWN1 most certainly had the most impact and influence on CRPGs than NWN2 no matter one's poerosnal opinion on either game's perceived quality.

 

IWD series on the list at all? It didn't uinfluence anything or make any impact on the CRPG industry. BGDA had way more impact than it. BIO games like KOTOR and ME had major impact as well as did *puke* The Witcher. The Might & Magics should also be on the list.

 

Just sayin'.

 

 

As a top 10/favoirte list it's very awesome.. as a top 10 most influential/impact on CRPG industry, it is very lacklustre.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Volourn

[Lexx]

How else do you explain putting FO:NV on the list but not FO3? (for the record, I loathe FO3 and enjoy FO:NV immenseley but FO:NV was/is not more influential or had bigger impact than FO3.

 

I would even say that FNV had no influence yet at all, because there just wasn't a new big rpg release yet, which could have been influenced by FNV. Same applies to Skyrim. The game is way too young to be put in such a list, imo.

[Maria Caliban]

You think that Bloodlines was bigger than World of Warcraft? Icewind Dale had more of an impact than Diablo?

[TheHarlequin]

Either I didn't explain myself or there is a lack of understanding. None the less, allow me to clarify;

 

The point of this list was IMO the CRPGs that made strides in closing the gap between PnP and CRPGs in a significant way. The best CRPGs that emulated and did justice to its table top roots on the PC. It isn't necessarily a list of simply the best CRPG's as the only criteria. But what CRPG's paid homage to its roots and came close on some level of feeling like a PnP game. Games that offered a open world, character development, choice/consequence, well written NPCs, deep story, PnP like game rules, etc.

 

For the record I was torn between DA for #10 and Bard's Tale. BT certainly broke ground on several fronts and felt like a PnP game.

[TheHarlequin]

You think that Bloodlines was bigger than World of Warcraft? Icewind Dale had more of an impact than Diablo?

 

For role playing potential, mood, setting you think WoW offers better RPG/table top elements then Bloodlines? o.O

 

I think Diablo was great for what it was. A hack and slash with some RPG stats tossed in. IWD was IMO vastly deeper story, writing and art direction wise then diablo could ever hope to be.

[Volourn]

Your reasoing just makes your list even more silly with absolutely no logic behind it whatsoever. Migth as well just say these were your top 10 favorites RPGs of all time.

 

 

"Either I didn't explain myself or there is a lack of understanding. None the less, allow me to clarify;

 

The point of this list was IMO the CRPGs that made strides in closing the gap between PnP and CRPGs in a significant way."

 

Howd oes Skyrim make strides in closing the game between pnp and crpgs any more significantly than any of the earlier ES games?

 

How does IWD do these any better than earlier DnD games?

 

How does NWN2 accomplish this more than NWN1?

 

How does BL do this better than Arcanum or TOEE?

 

How does DA do this better than KOTOR, JE, or a host of other games?

 

How does FO:NV do this better than FO3?

 

 

Does. not. compute.

 

Favorite ropgs list. I understand where you come from, and it's a good list going by that.

[TheHarlequin]

oh and to reply to the 'how do you add z game when y came before it in the series' comments; I looked at it as the older a engine got the better it was refined. FO3 was good, but story, dialog, RP mood and potential I felt NV was superior. Ditto with Skyrim vs Morrowind, etc. With every iteration it was more polished and IMO got better on all levels when it came to the RPG and PnP like elements.

Edited December 29, 2011 by TheHarlequin

[Slowtrain]

Ditto with Skyrim vs Morrowind

 

 

I would have choosen MW over any of Bethie's other rpgs as far as bridging the gap between tabletop and crpg.

 

MW is definitely Bethie's high point as far as rich environments and complex story and what not. It may not be their best crpg mechanics-wise, but its defintitely the richest.

[greylord]

Top lists off the top of my head...

 

1. Rogue (for all the Rogues out there)

 

2. Wizardry (which inspired other games like it, the Final Fantasy series, and a whole slew of others)

 

3. Diablo (from which all these action RPGs come from)

 

4. Diablo 2 (yes, the sequel introduced a skill tree type effect that was copied by action RPGs for over a decade now)

 

5. Everquest (people talk Ultima...but to tell the truth, it was this game that put MMORPG's on the map overall...not that it was any good [probably because I dislike MMORPGs])

 

6. Baldurs Gate II (yes, II, I was interesting, but II had the romances that have gotten more into the WRPGs these days)

 

7. NWN (had the ideas of an indepth editor for an RPG...copied by some)

 

8. Final Fantasy VII (evolved the Japanese RPG and put them back on the map...at least temporarily on PC)

 

Don't know what i'd put for 9 & 10...but the above were just off the top of my head on some of the more influential RPGs.

[Nightshape]

With the end of the year I decided it was time to take stock. I complied what I feel is the top 10 most influential and biggest impact CRPG's since the 80s. The ones that pushed the genre forward and closed the gap between PnP & PC gaming. Feel free to comment;

 

http://www.wodnews.net/Articles/Blogs/tabi...f-all-time.aspx

 

Yet ToEE isn't on the list...

[WorstUsernameEver]

To be honest I don't see Neverwinter Nights 2, Vampire: Bloodlines, Icewind Dale as particularly influential titles, and it's way to early to see whether Fallout: New Vegas or Dragon Age: Origins will have any kind of impact (I'm inclined to say they won't, and I'd say there are at least reasons to believe the second didn't, since BioWare themselves changed direction with its sequel). I'll give Skyrim a pass because with 10 million copies shipped, it's having a big impact on the industry right now.

[Gorgon]

I've played them all. In any other setting that would make me a colossal nerd.

[TheHarlequin]

With the end of the year I decided it was time to take stock. I complied what I feel is the top 10 most influential and biggest impact CRPG's since the 80s. The ones that pushed the genre forward and closed the gap between PnP & PC gaming. Feel free to comment;

 

http://www.wodnews.net/Articles/Blogs/tabi...f-all-time.aspx

 

Yet ToEE isn't on the list...

 

I have to assume that was said in humor.

[TheHarlequin]

To be honest I don't see Neverwinter Nights 2, Vampire: Bloodlines, Icewind Dale as particularly influential titles, and it's way to early to see whether Fallout: New Vegas or Dragon Age: Origins will have any kind of impact (I'm inclined to say they won't, and I'd say there are at least reasons to believe the second didn't, since BioWare themselves changed direction with its sequel). I'll give Skyrim a pass because with 10 million copies shipped, it's having a big impact on the industry right now.

 

I felt NWN2 was a huge step forward, writing wise, over NWN1. Was it the lightning in the bottle BG was? No, then again Bioware couldn't even recapture that magic even though they tried their damnest. But it was a solid second after the BG series when it came to feeling like you were playing a table top D&D game IMO.

 

As for Bloodlines, it had some of the best writing, dialog and plot if any CRPG. It was also a close to a translation of PnP to PC game as you could get. Saying bloodlines didn't close the gap between the two seems unfair on your part.

 

As for IWD I feel it transcended it's goal of being a D&D H&S game to something that felt like I was playing a old school D&D PnP module due to the great writing, well designed dungeons and voice acting.

[Volourn]

"I have to assume that was said in humor. "

 

Considering TOEE - despite its many flaws - is arguably the closest thing to true pnpm TB DnD on PC it fits the bill perfectly within your guidelines.. but, you hate the game and we've already established that this is your favorite rpgs of all time list.

 

 

 

"I felt NWN2 was a huge step forward, writing wise, over NWN1. Was it the lightning in the bottle BG was? No, then again Bioware couldn't even recapture that magic even though they tried their damnest. But it was a solid second after the BG series when it came to feeling like you were playing a table top D&D game IMO. "

 

That's silly talk. Even if we take your point that NWN2 had 'better writing' than NWN1; it certainly wasn't closer to 'like playing atable top D&D game'. In fact, NWN is the game that made that possible (notwithstanding the abortion known as that ancient Vampire game l0l). All NWN2 did was cotninue in NWN1's footsteps and even then it took major steps backward as well due to the sloppy modding tools shipped along with an abhorrent DM Clinet and MP components which made it further from the pnp DnD experiencer 'awesome' writing notwithstanding. But, then again, we established this is a favorite 10 list and since you persoanlly like NWN2 more than NWN1 so it gets the nod.

 

Just be honest with that.

 

I could make a top 10 list in the spirit of what you claim to be doing and it woyuld be different from my top 10 favorite list. Why can't you?

 

 

"As for Bloodlines, it had some of the best writing, dialog and plot if any CRPG."

 

L0L Talk about hyperbole and I love BL's writing, dialogue, and plot.

 

And, double L0LZ for IWD.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Volourn

[Humodour]

"I have to assume that was said in humor. "

 

Considering TOEE - despite its many flaws - is arguably the closest thing to true pnpm TB DnD on PC it fits the bill perfectly within your guidelines.. but, you hate the game and we've already established that this is your favorite rpgs of all time list.

 

 

 

"I felt NWN2 was a huge step forward, writing wise, over NWN1. Was it the lightning in the bottle BG was? No, then again Bioware couldn't even recapture that magic even though they tried their damnest. But it was a solid second after the BG series when it came to feeling like you were playing a table top D&D game IMO. "

 

That's silly talk. Even if we take your point that NWN2 had 'better writing' than NWN1; it certainly wasn't closer to 'like playing atable top D&D game'. In fact, NWN is the game that made that possible (notwithstanding the abortion known as that ancient Vampire game l0l). All NWN2 did was cotninue in NWN1's footsteps and even then it took major steps backward as well due to the sloppy modding tools shipped along with an abhorrent DM Clinet and MP components which made it further from the pnp DnD experiencer 'awesome' writing notwithstanding. But, then again, we established this is a favorite 10 list and since you persoanlly like NWN2 more than NWN1 so it gets the nod.

 

Just be honest with that.

 

I could make a top 10 list in the spirit of what you claim to be doing and it woyuld be different from my top 10 favorite list. Why can't you?

 

 

"As for Bloodlines, it had some of the best writing, dialog and plot if any CRPG."

 

L0L Talk about hyperbole and I love BL's writing, dialogue, and plot.

 

And, double L0LZ for IWD.

 

You're a funny little man.

[Pidesco]

I almost never agree with Volo, but he is quite right here.

[TheHarlequin]

"I have to assume that was said in humor. "

 

Considering TOEE - despite its many flaws - is arguably the closest thing to true pnpm TB DnD on PC it fits the bill perfectly within your guidelines.. but, you hate the game and we've already established that this is your favorite rpgs of all time list.

 

Could you quote me from ANYWHERE where I said I "hated" it? Or even said I think it's as low standing as you imply? I simply do not think it brought much to the table. Did it emulate a PnP flavor? Sure if you could a. get it to run without wiping your hdd and b. get past the broken quests even after the few patches it got. (last I knew it was abandoned support wise when many major issues still existed.) This isn't a "best CRPG with failed potential" list.

 

> That's silly talk. Even if we take your point that NWN2 had 'better writing' than NWN1;

nwn2

It did and few people aside, yourself included in that minority, felt that way too. Did it have issues? Yes. However few people ever stated the writing or story was such. The majority of feedback was always positive over nwn1 in this regard.

 

> it certainly wasn't closer to 'like playing atable top D&D game'.

 

That's subjective/matter of opinion. We will agree to disagree.

 

> "As for Bloodlines, it had some of the best writing, dialog and plot if any CRPG."

> L0L Talk about hyperbole and I love BL's writing, dialogue, and plot.

 

You live in a hole if you feel this was the view of the majority of players and reviewers. You are entitled to your opinion and we all know you like to take the minority opinion for the sake of taking the minority opinion so you can stand on your 'look at me I am different' soapbox. *shrugs*

 

> And, double L0LZ for IWD.

 

Replace IWD or DA with Bard's Tale (in hindsight I should have done that). Fair trade and issue resolved.

[Volourn]

The fact you think you speakl on behalf of the majority is hilarious.

 

the fact you think you know what i think is hilarious. For starters, I've said repeatedly, that the NWN2 OC is just as good if not better than the NWN1 OC. But, that's irrelevant to what you claim your top 10 list is about.

 

And, cosnidering how much trashing NWN2 got - espicially it's toolset, DM client, and module stuff 9all the stuff that makes NWN series prime to be comapred to pnp and something NWN has over every single other CRPG in comaprison to pnp - shows how ignorant aboutt he majority you think. Just look at how much of a joke NWN2's modding scene is ccomapred to NWN1's. Slam dunk no contest NWN1 wins.

 

 

 

"Could you quote me from ANYWHERE where I said I "hated" it? Or even said I think it's as low standing as you imply? I simply do not think it brought much to the table. Did it emulate a PnP flavor? Sure if you could a. get it to run without wiping your hdd and b. get past the broken quests even after the few patches it got. (last I knew it was abandoned support wise when many major issues still existed.) This isn't a "best CRPG with failed potential" list."

 

What does bugginess ahve to do with how close a agme captures the pnp FEEL?

 

Just admit the truth. This is your top 10 faves list. Nothing wrong with that. Be honest for a change.

 

 

"You live in a hole if you feel this was the view of the majority of players and reviewers. You are entitled to your opinion and we all know you like to take the minority opinion for the sake of taking the minority opinion so you can stand on your 'look at me I am different' soapbox. *shrugs*"

 

You don't make sense here. You DO rwealize I like BL, right? So.. if I'm in the 'minority' that would mean the majority of players dislike it, right? WOW.

 

WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW

[TheHarlequin]

The fact you think you speakl on behalf of the majority is hilarious.

 

o.O I am simply pointing out what the feedback as a whole of the game in question was. Pointing out metacritic or the like results are now a bad thing? ahh thats right you just want to go back and forth it isn't about using facts to you. You just like trying to get a rise out of people, My bad

 

> the fact you think you know what i think is hilarious.

 

errrr... simply quoting you. I didn't assume or make anything up. *chuckle*

 

> For starters, I've said repeatedly, that the NWN2 OC is just as good if not better than the NWN1 OC. But, that's irrelevant to what you claim your top 10 list is about.

 

Put on the breaks. You have consistently said TO ME, in THIS FORUM the opposite I do not know how many times. That NWN1 was superior to NWN2 writing (and most other ways)wise. Do I need to dig up the quotes and re-post them? If you had a change of heart glad to see you came around. But don't try to inply you have always held that stance. That is disingenuous at least if not outright lying at worst.

 

> And, cosnidering how much trashing NWN2 got - espicially it's toolset, DM client, and module stuff 9all the stuff that makes NWN series prime to be comapred to pnp and something NWN has over every single other CRPG in comaprison to pnp - shows how ignorant aboutt he majority you think. Just look at how much of a joke NWN2's modding scene is ccomapred to NWN1's. Slam dunk no contest NWN1 wins.

 

Actually it shows me how much of a idiot the majority of module makers were that came from NWN1. They complained because they wanted the dumbed down, a 8 yr old can make a module tools that came with NWN1. Even though in the NWN1 forums they complained they wanted more power to do this and that. Well they got said power. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have super dumbed down tools AND all the added functions they were screaming for. As they say be careful what you wish for.. And the 20% or so of the makers who stuck with it learned the tools made some amazing things with it. In fact I said this was going to happen when I ran nwn2news. I said in a op ed the majority of nwn1 module makers were not going to survive and port over to nwn2 as the tools will be above their head due to all the added functions (that ironically they requested). So it really wasn't a surprise when that is exactly what happened.

 

> What does bugginess ahve to do with how close a agme captures the pnp FEEL?

 

You buy a car. A awesome car that it epitomizes of what a car should be and even makes you breakfast in the morning. However you can't go more then a block from your house without it breaking down. Does it really matter what the bells and whistles or how awesome the car is if it can't even do it's most basic function consistently? Do you think said car is going to get on any top 10 lists beyond a 'failed potential' list? Exactly.

[Volourn]

"Put on the breaks. You have consistently said TO ME, in THIS FORUM the opposite I do not know how many times. That NWN1 was superior to NWN2 writing (and most other ways)wise. Do I need to dig up the quotes and re-post them? If you had a change of heart glad to see you came around. But don't try to inply you have always held that stance. That is disingenuous at least if not outright lying at worst."

 

The fact youa ccuse anyone of lying is hilaiorus when your top 10 list is a lie.

 

 

 

"Actually it shows me how much of a idiot the majority of module makers were that came from NWN1. They complained because they wanted the dumbed down, a 8 yr old can make a module tools that came with NWN1. Even though in the NWN1 forums they complained they wanted more power to do this and that. Well they got said power. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have super dumbed down tools AND all the added functions they were screaming for. As they say be careful what you wish for.. And the 20% or so of the makers who stuck with it learned the tools made some amazing things with it. In fact I said this was going to happen when I ran nwn2news. I said in a op ed the majority of nwn1 module makers were not going to survive and port over to nwn2 as the tools will be above their head due to all the added functions (that ironically they requested). So it really wasn't a surprise when that is exactly what happened."

 

LMAO earlier you were bragging that YOU were part of the majority and I was simply a minority torublemaker trolling just to be 'different'. Now, that the majority dfisagrees with you theya r ejust morans? HAHAHAHA! The NWN2 toolset/DMC/et.c suck plain and simple. And, nothing worthwhile was masde with it and NWN1's mods and sueage are much more avried and superior to the NWN2 modding scene by far. It's just plain superior to the joke that is the NWN2 toolset/dmc. FACT

 

 

"You buy a car. A awesome car that it epitomizes of what a car should be and even makes you breakfast in the morning. However you can't go more then a block from your house without it breaking down. Does it really matter what the bells and whistles or how awesome the car is if it can't even do it's most basic function consistently? Do you think said car is going to get on any top 10 lists beyond a 'failed potential' list? Exactly."

 

If the list is 'closest to feeling like pnp' absolutely TOEE deserves to be on it. If the list is 'buggiest' game definiterly. If the list is 'most stable' or 'my top 10 favorite games' than hell no. R00fles!

[TheHarlequin]

Clearly your reply, and how you are grasping at straws to be 'right' speaks for itself. 'Nuff said.

[Volourn]

Finally, you admit you are wrong. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

 

Now, to be fair, I will make my top 10 games that I think fit your criteria of the following: "The point of this list was IMO the CRPGs that made strides in closing the gap between PnP and CRPGs in a significant way. The best CRPGs that emulated and did justice to its table top roots on the PC. It isn't necessarily a list of simply the best CRPG's as the only criteria. But what CRPG's paid homage to its roots and came close on some level of feeling like a PnP game." I will also keep in mind your intiial goal of 'impact on CRPG industry'.

 

*RU* Controversey! GB games (most notebaly POR1) - they didn't make top 10? Why despite ahving upwards of ten titles and being the 'original DND' CRPG series? Simple. These classics run of gamut of quality and their impact on the industry is minature comapred to their modern counterparts like BG. Modern gamers simply don't give a crap about. hHeck, people stopped caring about them even as the last few were crapped out by SSI. L0L Good for their time but so passe and past their prime.

 

10. M&M series - the 'ol classic of create your party and explore at your liesure but still an overarching story in the background that pushes the campaign forward.

 

9. DA - A huge following that put BIO even higher than the stratosphere being the first BIO game to sell 4mil+ copies. The different openings pushed multiple opening sceneraios to the forefront even if it wasn't the first game to try them. But sicne the agrument cna be made it's just BIO's personal version of the BGs it loses something. It is also ranked low as BIo crapped the bed with the lacklustre ie. horrible toolset that they threw in simply as an obligiation for NWN fanboy crybabies.

 

8. NWN2 - It definitely had the modding tools and a DMC that makes it closer to pnp than majority of CRPGs so it gets a palce but being such a huge step back from its predecccesor keeps it on the low end.

 

7. Ultima - Often considered 'the grandfather of rpgs', and for good reason. Definitely one of the first to actually have morality play a role in the game.

 

6. FF series - Its impact of the CRPG industry simply can't be ignored. the games are of mixed quality but the impact is felt. i say this despite not playing any since FFX.

 

5. MW - Why pick MW over other ES games? Easy. Pre MW - the ES/Bethesda were successful but not really epickly so as MW truly put them on the map of gaming conciousness. Oblivion + Skyrim just continues that and doesn't really bring anything 'new'.

 

4. TOEE - Despite not being a perfect rendition, TOEE's is probably the closest CRPG to faithfully rerceate DnD pnp rules and whatever flaws it may have that can't be taken away from it. Not to mention the fact that it is literally based on one of the most famous of pnp DnD modules says enough said.

 

3. BG series - Before BG, DnD crpgs were simply dying. After the BGs and their fellow engine counterparts the IWD series and PST multiple games came along to ride the wave.So successful were thiss eries that its developer was able to literally throw the publisher to the curb and alugh in their face and still get their next game published. How many developers wish they could do the same? BG's influence is still a heavy influence on both BIO and non BIO games alike.

 

2. FO - FO's legendary C&C is unforgettable despite the fact the early ones werenever really big sellers. However, its impact has been felt and obviously holds a lot of influence due to the existence of sequels, and offshoots plus more thana few games have borrowed off it. And, since its game system heavily copies a pnp system also helps. The uper sales of the last two in the series only help its case.

 

1. NWN1 - Whatever one may think of its OC quality, it's ahrd to question NWN's meeting the criteria for this list. Impact? BIo's most successful game until the release of their 'modern' titles like DA and ME2. The game where they were to overpower their former publisher Interplay/BIS, and wrest control of NWN from and get Atari to publish it. Impact where they made the toolset/modding tools a part of the main package and not just a random useless afterthought? A DMC were you cna literally have DM run campaigns on the fly with actual PC parties ala pnp? No game comes even close to this.How about being one of the first games to have official 'premium' modules available for download as a precursor for the current DLC craze? No matter how you slice it, NWN fits the bill. The DMC and the ability to have a real campaign run exactly as you would in pnp makes it a surefire winner here despite the merely average OC.

 

 

I win.