Study of Srebrenica

[Drowsy Emperor]

A most informative study of the events surrounding and culminating in Srebrenica done by a UN offical:

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...a&aid=25112

 

Scroll down for 300 page pdf, or read the foreword for a general idea.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

Important quote:

 

It was in such a highly charged political environment that the Srebrenica massacre of July 1995 took place, and was quickly described as a case of

[Drowsy Emperor]

Important quote II:

 

What happened in Srebrenica was not a single large massacre of Muslims by Serbs, but rather a series of very bloody attacks and counterattacks over a three-year period, which reached a crescendo in 1995. And

the number of Muslim executed in the last battle of Srebrenica, as former BBC reporter Jonathan Rooper has pointed out, was most likely inthe hundreds, not in the thousands. Moreover, it is likely that the number of Muslim dead was probably no more than the number of Serbsthat had been killed in Srebrenica and its environs during the preceding years by Bosnian Commander Naser Oric

[Humodour]

Apologist.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Apologist.

 

We know that our work will be assailed as

[Calax]

He said the same thing almost 8 years ago...

 

http://www.mombu.com/politics/italy/t-non-...e--4831624.html

 

Hell if I know anything about what that article says except the english bit.

[Walsingham]

Possibly as an aside, but do you deny also that there was a systematic effort to commit genoicde by the Serb 'war' appartus, or are you just arguing the toss on Srebrenica?

[Humodour]

On the bright side guys, at least the butcher in charge of these murders - be they 800 or 8000 - is being shipped off to face war crimes sentencing. A belated win for justice!

[Drowsy Emperor]

Possibly as an aside, but do you deny also that there was a systematic effort to commit genoicde by the Serb 'war' appartus, or are you just arguing the toss on Srebrenica?

 

In this topic I'm just copy pasting what a reputable individual that was also external to the conflict has to say as I read through the book.

 

Personally, I'm sure of both. Because even if we go all the way with the west's Srebrenica mythology, even there its noted that women and children were spared the so called "executions" and removed with buses by the order of Mladic himself.

 

Therefore it is not genocide, even if you believe the mainstream version, because genocide requires the intent to destroy the entire population of the target group and that intent is lacking. You do not commit genocide by showing mercy to half of your supposed target group.

 

Intent, critical to genocide, is lacking in Srebrenica, and it is lacking in other contested territories as well.

 

 

He said the same thing almost 8 years ago...

 

http://www.mombu.com/politics/italy/t-non-...e--4831624.html

 

Hell if I know anything about what that article says except the english bit.

 

Indeed. I assume this is just a more thorough version.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Humodour]

Perhaps we should coin a new term - 'half-genocide' - for those honourable souls that only murder innocent men.

[Walsingham]

I must have missed a meeting. I wasn't aware that genocide which failed to annihilate the target population wasn't genocide. My sincere apologies.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I must have missed a meeting. I wasn't aware that genocide which failed to annihilate the target population wasn't genocide. My sincere apologies.

 

You missed the point. There was an intent that the women and children be spared from the conflict, this is well documented. That left only men of fighting age, amply armed from the conflicts preceding the attack on Srebrenica.

 

Since most of the men of Srebrenica were fighters in the paramilitary unit of Naser Oric, they could hardly be called "innocent", as regular combatants in the war.

 

Therefore it is not genocide.

 

To presume that 800 deaths, most of which are combat related are somehow genocide is to equate that with Nazi genocide over the Jews and that is an insult to the latter.

 

Srebrenica is a case of, at best, unlawful killing of POW's - to the total number of several hundred.

 

 

On April 16, 1993, the UN Security Council designated Srebrenica

a “safe area,” one that should be “free from any armed attack or any

other hostile act.” Forty-eight hours later, the UN Protection Force for

Bosnia and Herzegovina (UNPROFOR) negotiated an agreement between

the BSA and Bosnian Muslim Army (BMA) whereby the BSA

agreed to a ceasefire in exchange for UNPROFOR’S pledge to disarm

the Srebrenica “safe area” population.3 But Srebrenica remained an

armed camp nonetheless, one from which Bosnian Muslim troops and

paramilitary forces periodically ventured forth and destroyed numerous

Serb villages and killed a total number of Serbs estimated to be well

over 3,000 by the war’s end.4 The vengeance motive that developed

among Bosnian Serb forces was strong, and they even had lists of “safe

haven”-protected killers, some no doubt captured and summarily executed

in July 1995. But there was also heavy fighting during the period

of the alleged massacre as several thousand Bosnian Muslim troops of

the well-armed 28th division of the BMA retreated from Srebrenica and

its vicinity to Bosnian Muslim lines at Tuzla. Many reached those lines

(and Yugoslav territory) safely, but large numbers were killed in combat,

and the Bosnian Serbs themselves claimed to have sustained the loss of

as many as five hundred soldiers (see Chapters 2 and 3).

Edited June 7, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Humodour]

There was an intent that the women and children be spared from the conflict

 

I doubt that.

 

this is well documented.

 

Got some reputable sources, then?

[Drowsy Emperor]

Is the highest ranking civillian UN official during the conflict reputable enough for you?

 

In the adjoining enclave of Zepa, with a population of 16,000, the

BMA troops, though far fewer in number and resources, put up a stiff

defence and resisted the BSA advance for twelve days (twice as long as

Srebrenica) finally yielding on July 25. In marked contrast to Srebrenica,

the Muslim fighters negotiated a surrender. Allegations of mass executions

have never been made about Zepa, even though military aged men

were detained as they had been in Srebrenica two weeks before. Again

the women, children and wounded were safely transported by bus to

Muslim areas. The men were either evacuated with the women and children

or went via Serbia itself which lies just across the River Drina. The

inhabitants of Zepa were effectively members of the same Muslim community

as that in Srebrenica with much coming and going between the

enclaves even during the war, the same Bosnian Serb commanders were

involved, the same opportunities for the Bosnian Serbs to execute their

captives existed and yet the

[Walsingham]

I'm still not convinced. Although you've kept your temper, so points for that.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I failed to elaborate on the man behind the book:

 

Phillip Corwin served with the United Nations for 27 years, including

his stint in 1995 as the UN Civilian Affairs Coordinator in

Bosnia and Herzegovina, the UN

[Humodour]

And yet in the war crimes trial of General Radislav Krstic, the court twice found that what occured in Srebenica was genocide (the second time was due to an appeal).

 

And what of the women who were raped? More of them than those of who died (i.e. thousands). Such rapes constitute war crimes in and of themselves, and indeed Serbian soldiers have been charged with war crimes for such rapes. Do you deny they happened? And what about the male children who were murdered? Was that also because they were soldiers?

 

As to your original link to a work by the denialist Mr Herman... hmmm... no: http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/20...srebrenica.html

[Malcador]

So just mass murder then, hm, not seeing much to be outraged over with this thread.

[Drowsy Emperor]

And yet in the war crimes trial of General Radislav Krstic, the court twice found that what occured in Srebenica was genocide (the second time was due to an appeal).

 

And what of the women who were raped? More of them than those of who died (i.e. thousands). Such rapes constitute war crimes in and of themselves, and indeed Serbian soldiers have been charged with war crimes for such rapes. Do you deny they happened? And what about the male children who were murdered? Was that also because they were soldiers?

 

As to your original link to a work by the denialist Mr Herman... hmmm... no: http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/20...srebrenica.html

 

Thus the ruling of the court is fundamentally political in nature, as the supposed genocide could not be proven and contradicts the very definition of genocide used by those courts.

Genocide requires intent and systematic destruction, which the aforementioned example of the enclave Zepa clearly negates.

 

I will restate the gist of that event for you: Muslim forces negotiate a surrender in the enclave of Zepa

 

Again (the "again" means: as in Srebrenica) the women, children and wounded were safely transported by bus to

Muslim areas. The men were either evacuated with the women and children

or went via Serbia itself which lies just across the River Drina.

 

I will also restate one commonly known point. At the beginning of the war the Bosnian Serb Army had at one point controlled almost the entirety of Bosnia.

If there was genocidal intent, the civilian muslim population would have been wiped out in a matter of weeks, well before the west, or anyone, could react.

 

I'm sorry Krezack but that article consists of nothing but verbal abuse and a single argument:

 

-"We have names of xy missing on xy lists"

 

To that I answer this:

 

Source is Jonathan Rooper former BBC news reporter

 

According to Amnesty International,

a total of 35,632 persons from the Srebrenica safe area had

registered as displaced persons with UN authorities by the first week of

August—in other words, as survivors of the fall of Srebrenica. Additionally,

a “total of 796 people who fled into the [Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]

from Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves were registered by UNHCR

(United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees) and ICRC and either

resettled in third countries or were repatriated to Bosnia-Herzegovina

(more may have entered the FRY without making their whereabouts

known to the UNHCR).”... Some 700 soldiers and civilians from Srebrenica

also made their way to Zepa, emerging safely from that town

when it fell to the Serbs during the last week of July 1995.

swam across the river Drina to find safety between July 11 and 13, 1995. These refugees—an entire brigade of the

Bosnian Muslim Army (BMA)—were apprehended, processed and provided

with accommodation and care (including visits by the Red Cross,

which also delivered mail and cigarettes) by the Yugoslav authorities.22 In

addition, several hundred Bosnian Muslim soldiers were held in Bosnian

Serb prisons for periods of weeks or months before being handed

over. So it is clear that there were in total at least (and probably rather

more than) 38,000 to 39,000 documented survivors of the fall of Srebrenica—

a figure that matches or exceeds the total pre-fall population estimates

of the major aid agencies

 

As for rape, theft and murder and other individual "small scale" crimes that are common to a large war, the individuals from all sides who participated in a war, and did such things should be tried as is common to all civilized nations. I think there are enough reports from all three sides of individuals participating in such deeds, that we can leave those out of this discussion. It is a terrible by product of a drawn out war (3 years!).

The number of Serbian women who have been raped is frighteningly high, yet has not been given a split second of media time, nor have many of the participants been charged, or indeed any that I know off.

 

If you're suggesting a widespread policy of systematic rape, that is unfortunately typical war propaganda of the sort fabricated to induce revulsion.

There is no proof of any such thing, audio, visual or document. As it would be a massive undertaking, some form of evidence would have to exist.

It is nonsense.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Gfted1]

I dont know much about that war but I have to give you props for supporting your version with documentation.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The very ICTY is full of strange contradictions:

 

Theodor Meron, presiding judge:

 

By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims, the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the 40,000 Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity

 

1. He says 40000 people were targeted for extinction

2. He says muslim males were systematically executed

 

This is a contradiction. If the women, children and wounded were released (and that is obvious because he fails to mention them) then how could 40000 people be targeted for extinction?

That leaves the number a gross falsehood.

 

Also by "seeking to eliminate a part of Srebrenica muslims, BS commited genocide".

 

This is contradictory to the definition of genocide, seen as systematic destruction, widespread and targeting an entire group. It is also contradictory to the "40000 muslims" claim.

 

Compiled with the NGO findings on Srebrenica post attack population the entire claim is revealed to be unsubstantiated.

 

Therefore the entire claim is purely political in nature.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I dont know much about that war but I have to give you props for supporting your version with documentation.

 

There is no other way. Without documentation it boils down to who believes what and then a flame war ensues.

 

I don't want that.

 

I believe the west was misled by a select group within the Clinton administration and Bosnian Muslim leadership into picking a side in a civil war against one that was not hostile to them or their interests.

In fact, of the entire eastern block it could be said that the Croats and the Serbs most of all admired the US prior to the events in the Balkan wars.

 

The same cannot be said of the BM, given that eyewitness testimony puts none other than Osama bin Laden, in Sarajevo - meeting the BM leadership. Indeed, it is also said that he was issued a Bosnian passport! All this just a few years before 9/11.

 

British journalist Eve-Ann Prentice stated that while awaiting

the start of a scheduled appointment with Alija Izetbegovic around November,

1994, she witnessed an ‘Arabic looking’ man ushered in to see Izetbegovic before

her. One of the other journalists in her company at the time, Der Spiegel’s Renate

Flottau, later identified this man as Osama bin Laden” (n. 13).

 

Bin-Laden,

then based in Sudan, had received a Bosnian passport from the Vienna

embassy of Bosnia - Herzegovina according to the Bosnian Muslim daily

Dani.14 Bin-Laden and his military chief of Staff Ayman al-Zawahiri

helped establish the Mujahadeen fighters as a force in Bosnia, mostly as

special forces of the 7th Corps of the Bosnian Army in Central Bosnia.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Humodour]

You know, speaking of 9/11, this is like watching a 9/11 denier at work. OPEN YOUR EYES, SHEEPLE!

[Drowsy Emperor]

You know, speaking of 9/11, this is like watching a 9/11 denier at work. OPEN YOUR EYES, SHEEPLE!

 

I don't see why you need to steep to ridicule, without even considering the evidence at hand.

[Walsingham]

The central issue here is that while Srebrenica may or may not have been the occasion of an atrocity, atrocities were committed on a broad scale. I've spoken to too many peacekeepers with first hand experience, in addition to reading around the subject (when I was primarily interested in Rwanda) to ever believe otherwise.

 

That's why we aren't engaging with you directly over this point of history.

 

That's also why this attempt to expiate some sort of notion of guilt - which is what I suspect it is - is a wasted effort.