PC control scheme for combat

[topeira]

i am worried a bit about the differences between the way movement and combat is done on the consoles and how it's done on the PC.

 

Diablo type games on the Pc use the mouse-for-everything method where u left click on the ground and do auto-moving and left click on enemies to attack them or auto-walk to them and attack. this method has a lot of disadvantaged compared to the way console games solve the movement issue since there is no mouse - u push the thumbstick in the direction u wanna go and the character walk there. a different button is meant for attacking.

 

i truely hope the control scheme on the PC will not be a point-n-click method of diable but more of a WASD for movement, other keys to attack, block etc.

though it seems like the mouse movement will not be used in this game since the players don't have any control over the camera.

[Starwars]

We don't know as of yet how it will work. But if you're worried that won't like a mouse control scheme on the PC, you can always get a controller, plug it in and play that way. I might do this myself since it really seems like the game would work best with a controller but I'll wait and see how the PC controls are worked out first.

[Lord Elvewyn]

i am worried a bit about the differences between the way movement and combat is done on the consoles and how it's done on the PC.

 

Diablo type games on the Pc use the mouse-for-everything method where u left click on the ground and do auto-moving and left click on enemies to attack them or auto-walk to them and attack. this method has a lot of disadvantaged compared to the way console games solve the movement issue since there is no mouse - u push the thumbstick in the direction u wanna go and the character walk there. a different button is meant for attacking.

 

i truely hope the control scheme on the PC will not be a point-n-click method of diable but more of a WASD for movement, other keys to attack, block etc.

though it seems like the mouse movement will not be used in this game since the players don't have any control over the camera.

 

I'd have to disagree. Point and click works well, and is DS consistent. Using an FPS style control system would not be a good idea. Depending on the camera angles\how it (WASD style control) was implemented it might even be really old school - old school as in DOS generation side scrolling. Mouse precision's better. As for keys to block and attack, is this a console fighting game Street Fighter etc, or PC's DS?

[topeira]

i am worried a bit about the differences between the way movement and combat is done on the consoles and how it's done on the PC.

 

Diablo type games on the Pc use the mouse-for-everything method where u left click on the ground and do auto-moving and left click on enemies to attack them or auto-walk to them and attack. this method has a lot of disadvantaged compared to the way console games solve the movement issue since there is no mouse - u push the thumbstick in the direction u wanna go and the character walk there. a different button is meant for attacking.

 

i truely hope the control scheme on the PC will not be a point-n-click method of diable but more of a WASD for movement, other keys to attack, block etc.

though it seems like the mouse movement will not be used in this game since the players don't have any control over the camera.

 

I'd have to disagree. Point and click works well, and is DS consistent. Using an FPS style control system would not be a good idea. Depending on the camera angles\how it (WASD style control) was implemented it might even be really old school - old school as in DOS generation side scrolling. Mouse precision's better. As for keys to block and attack, is this a console fighting game Street Fighter etc, or PC's DS?

 

it doesnt matter how DS used to be but how THIS game is, and since its so vastly different than the older control scheme is irrelevant.

i am not talking about a control scheme like FPSs. im talking about how action games like Assassins creed\fable\batman:AA is. DS3 is a lot more like AC or Fable than DS1 or DS2 in terms of combat. the biggest difference between AC and DS3 is that in DS3 u can't control the angle of the camera. because of that i expect an AC type of control scheme.

 

there is something extremely disconnected in how the old DS and diablo games are played. u tap a ground like in a strategy game and the character walks automatically there. it's a lot less like i am moving my character but rather like im telling the character where to go and HE's walking as i told him. it's like I AM not the same as the character. he's just doing what im telling him. and the notion that i can't attack any time i want but only if i aim precisely at an attack-able object is strange.

action games like AC\fable\batman have a much much more tactile feeling to how u control the character. diablo (or dragon age) style games feel a lot like strategy games with less characters.

the controller scheme in DS3 looks and feels a lot mroe action oriented and more tactile. if the keyboard scheme is going to be like in diablo games im gonna be really disappointed and definitly not going to come anywhere near the game.

 

and i DO have a controller but i am not using it cuz i dont like it. my G\F is using it if we play co-op and in DS3 if we play co-op than i will need to use the keyboard, therefore i need the game to feel like an action RPG and not like a strategy game for me and an action game for her.

[Lord Elvewyn]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes there are vast differences but the game's not totally different. Of course there's still a lot of info to be revealed.

 

Played Fable very briefly, not heard of AC\Batman so can't comment on them. Point & click is very common for RPG's, probably the dominant style, and I certainly don't see it as a strategy only control style. WASD in contrast is associated with FPS games. Total War games offer a FPS camera control option even though it's a strategy series P&C allows for precise control, something that is much more difficult with WASD, especially when not in a first person view. The WASD RPG's that I can think of are Elder Scrolls (FPV), KotOR and Mass Effect (~FPV), which I think is seen as having DS3 parallels. Mass Effect's technically not FPV, but it's very close. I find a disconnection in that game because I've got a character in the way, something that's really annoying when he obstruct's my view of the guy shooting at me. Actually, just a thought, is it the control style or the third person view you find disconnecting? A bird's eye view moves you back from the character which I guess could disconnect some people.

 

Maybe you don't think you're talking about an FPS control system but you said "more of a WASD for movement, other keys to attack, block etc". Given most people only have two hands, of which only one's spare for the keyboard, there's not too many keys that would be easily accessed without shifting your eyes offscreen, not really a good idea in combat

 

How do you mean you can't control the camera angle? DS you could control vertical and horizonal rotation. As I understand it there are two fixed ranges but rotation's not excluded. Fixed camera was something I found really annoying in TQ (Titan Quest). The range shown in the screenshots to date suggest a moderate distance camera. You'd need up close for WASD to work, e.g. Mass Effect style pseudo FPV. That would be a pretty radical departure from previous DS games/

 

I agree DS3 looks more twitch oriented than DS. Too consolish and it's going to lose a lot of DS fans though, myself included.

 

it doesnt matter how DS used to be but how THIS game is, and since its so vastly different than the older control scheme is irrelevant.

i am not talking about a control scheme like FPSs. im talking about how action games like Assassins creed\fable\batman:AA is. DS3 is a lot more like AC or Fable than DS1 or DS2 in terms of combat. the biggest difference between AC and DS3 is that in DS3 u can't control the angle of the camera. because of that i expect an AC type of control scheme.

 

there is something extremely disconnected in how the old DS and diablo games are played. u tap a ground like in a strategy game and the character walks automatically there. it's a lot less like i am moving my character but rather like im telling the character where to go and HE's walking as i told him. it's like I AM not the same as the character. he's just doing what im telling him. and the notion that i can't attack any time i want but only if i aim precisely at an attack-able object is strange.

action games like AC\fable\batman have a much much more tactile feeling to how u control the character. diablo (or dragon age) style games feel a lot like strategy games with less characters.

the controller scheme in DS3 looks and feels a lot mroe action oriented and more tactile. if the keyboard scheme is going to be like in diablo games im gonna be really disappointed and definitly not going to come anywhere near the game.

 

and i DO have a controller but i am not using it cuz i dont like it. my G\F is using it if we play co-op and in DS3 if we play co-op than i will need to use the keyboard, therefore i need the game to feel like an action RPG and not like a strategy game for me and an action game for her.

[topeira]

if u havent heard of Assassins creed or batman : arkham asylum than i feel like your experience with action games is a bit limited to have a proper discussion.

 

can't you think of action games u've played that had some sort of overhead camera? i can even include God of war as an example.

 

the way i see it, DS3 is a lot like Lara croft and the guardian of light - the camera is isometric (high and far above character heads) and u cant rotate it. WASD keys are for movement. mouse is for aiming the guns\spear or block direction. if u press W than the character goes UP. press D+S and it walk diagonally down and right. in FPS if u press D+S than u walk backwards and right. there is no down and up since directions are relative to the direction in which the player is looking, which constantly changes since the player control the camera.

in Lara croft and the guardian of light (LCGOL from now on, if u dont mind (-: ) directions are absolute and the mouse is used to aim the direction in which u shoot.

in DS3 there is not much shooting which makes me wonder what would the right thumb stick \mouse will be used for. now that i've seen the 3rd character (femal gun slinger) i think we will need a mouse\right thumb stick to aim. here comes the huge advantage of the action control scheme - if u use the same mouse button to move and aim than u cant walk in one direction and shoot at the same time. in diablo\torchlight\magicka (awesome game) u cant walk away from the enemies while still shoot at them. once u shoot u stop! same goes with melee attacking and walking. u cant do them both. because of that u r very limited in how u can defend yourself. its really cumbersome to navigate and attack in conjunction. u can only walk to one place, stop, attack, inevitably get hit (since u cant escape) than walk away.

also in action oriented games its easy to pres A and then occationally tap S in order to move right but slightly down to adjust your direction. these small quick and frequent changes in the direction in which u move are essential to get around a tight battlefield and are possible with direct control. with a point-n-click scheme its a lot less easy.

 

about disconnection - first of all, yes. the camera is disconnecting. the closer the camera to the player's character the more you feel close to him. simple psychology. but im talking about the control scheme.

in LCGOL u hold A than u walk left until u let go. that's a direct connection to the control of the character. it feels like im moving the character. in Diablo style game i click on a map and the character moves there automatically. taking turns, changing directions, climbing stairs and ladders , all without my direct control. it's less DIRECT therefore i feel less connected. also in a more action oriented game u can attack the air. u can try and hit an enemy and miss. u can attack "between" enemies and hit them both cuz of the arc of attack of your weapon. in swing a sword in a direction, kinda like in real life.

in a point and click u can't do any of those things. if u click on the floor and not on an enemy than u walk there instead of attack him. u cant miss. the game dictates if u swing or attack. its disconnecting. and as i said it's a lot harder to move and attack alternatively. a lot harder to attack right and quickly left and quickly move and quickly attack. if WASD controls your direction\facing that it's as easy as D+attack and A+attack and no relatively slow and precise mouse aiming is needed. it's just faster. for a game that looks twitchy like DS3 this speed is needed.

 

 

about camera control - in an action game like AC or batman or GOW or Fable or Darksiders or Tron or Prince of persia (and the action games list goes on and on (NOT oblivion and not FPS games) the camera constantly being rotated byt eh player so u can look around. its the direction in which u are looking but it's disconnected from the player's character (u can move in one direction but the camera faces the other direction, unlike in oblivion or FPSs ot ME). once combat begins it goes backwards and shows more of the combat. the player needs to constantly adjust the camera to see what's going on better.

because of the direct control of the camera it's impossible to play two players co-op on the same screen because the second player will get confused but the changes of the camera or he will have it very hard to orient himself when the camera is kinda close to the OTHER player.

in DS3 same-screen co-op IS possible therefore the camera needs to be static so both players can see themselves. also it has to be far enough so the player(s) wont feel the need to rotate it to see what's going on around them. it also needs to be HIGH enough so the perspective wont cause objects in the button of the screen to obscure and disappear if not close enough. since in DS3 the camera is isometric and in none of the videos i've seen a constant camera movement (like i do in every assassins creed or fable video) than i assume that there will be pretty limited camera movement.

zoom levels, yes, but that doesnt mean the mouse or right thumb stick controls the camera. it might have cluncky camera movement like in certain point-and-click games but that means adjusting the camera is not done by the mouse or right thumbstick and it's being adjusted rarely.

 

to conclude -

if with the controller u have direct action oriented control and in the PC u DONT than there is a very big difference between how the games feel in both versions. im worried it will feel as clunky as a diablo game (which i hate with passion) instead of a tactile action game like LCGOL or Marvel ultimate alliance or any other action game.

luckily for you, and im throwing a big guess here, it DOES look a little like DS3 will have a point and click control scheme. why? cuz i've just looked at the katarina trailer again. there wasnt even ONE shot that showed her shooting while walking. this probably means she can't do it. therefore it seems like it IS a point and click.

 

 

pheeeew. that was long. thanks for bearing with me

Edited April 5, 2011 by topeira

[hopfrog16]

Damn dude... If it bothers you this much, why not wait until after it's released? Then you can ask PC users how the controls and the camera work. =P

[topeira]

im just having a discussion

 

i will definitely wait until its out and then ask. just thinking that the consoles have a more action oriented control scheme and im scared the PC \keboard version will have a different control scheme. i only saw this done in one game - deathspank. now im scared

[Tigranes]

I actually identify with characters better in third person view because I can see them and position them within the world, and in any case, very rarely are worlds good enough to make me feel even for a moment that I'm actually in them. It's much more immersive for me when I can see my character and how he/she fits into that world.

 

That kind of thing is always 'learnt' as you play various video games - there is no 'inherent' disposition towards greater immersion or identification in a first person camera or a WSAD movement system. It's a personal thing that is most likely the result of your familiarity with such schemes in your formative gaming experiences.

 

Case in point, very few people that have played a fair bit of games across genres would ever say D2 feels clunky.

 

edit: btw, I wonder if 2 controllers is possible? Is that usually doable?

[topeira]

I actually identify with characters better in third person view because I can see them and position them within the world, and in any case, very rarely are worlds good enough to make me feel even for a moment that I'm actually in them. It's much more immersive for me when I can see my character and how he/she fits into that world.

 

That kind of thing is always 'learnt' as you play various video games - there is no 'inherent' disposition towards greater immersion or identification in a first person camera or a WSAD movement system. It's a personal thing that is most likely the result of your familiarity with such schemes in your formative gaming experiences.

 

Case in point, very few people that have played a fair bit of games across genres would ever say D2 feels clunky.

 

edit: btw, I wonder if 2 controllers is possible? Is that usually doable?

 

 

i like both FPP and 3rd PP. i love seeing my character when it's customizeable. in Oblivion i play (yeah, i just got into it a few weeks ago) in 3rd person perspective. my immersion comes from the camera perspective as well as how much of the world is interactive (open worlds are far more immersive than linear ones) and good graphics. also sometimes cutscenes can take away from immersion, taking control out of player's hands. but this is not a discussion about immersion so i prefer to live it at that. it's a personal taste.

 

also which control scheme is better is also a matter of taste. i lean heavily towards direct control while other think that a point-n-click is fine.

 

 

...but they're wrong of course...

 

 

my point is - the controller's control scheme is action oriented. not point-n-clik.i am afraid the keyboard scheme will be different. enemy AI and combat mechanics is handled differently depending how the control scheme works. if the game is catering for the controler than it wont feel right if the player is forced to play with a point-n-click scheme. i am afraid of obsidian making the keyboard control scheme feel wrong compared to the console's version.

 

and im pretty sure u can plug two controllers. if it's 4 players co-op than why not? on my PC i have the "remote" for my xbox360 controller and if a friend brings another 260 controler than that second controller communicated with the remote automatically and works instantly. this is how me and my friends played magicka.

 

p.s. - no, i do not want to play with a controller nor i have two of them to play co-op with.

Edited April 5, 2011 by topeira

[Lord Elvewyn]

Okay now that you explain the AC yes I've heard of it. I had a look to see what AC might be before and Asheron's Call topped the list. Can't recall Arkham Asylum. I was thinking action RPG rather than action as a genre in its own right - they're very different! I'm not sure I've played anything that would be classed as action. Strategy, simulation, FPS and RPG yes, action, no. I don't think God of War even rings a bell

 

From Wikipedia

Action game"emphasizes physical challenges, including hand

Edited April 6, 2011 by Lord Elvewyn

[topeira]

@Lord Elvewyn -

 

 

 

by your disposition and self indication of lack of hand-eye coordination i'd assume u r rather a mature gamer. for you i WOULD recommend Assassinc reed. perhaps the latest ones (assassins creed2 or assassins creed: brotherhood) as even though they are considered action games they are very good for casual gamers who are new to games. these games have mature story, fun reference for history and u actually learn something by playing them also have a light RPG elements to them. not by improving the main character but by upgrading it's tools, armor and weapons and even main villa. my friend used to play them every night after he tucked the kids to sleep when his wife was watching since they loved the story and feel of the game.

 

also Fable 3 should come out for the PC in may, in case u didnt know. u might like that one too.

 

i wouldnt recommend batman or god of war or devil may cry though. those are kinda hard core and tough, as games.

 

 

99% of the time a console version is identical to the PC version. besides Dragon age 1 and deathspank i dont think any multiplatform game was considered different between the consoles and the PC. it's important that that the feel will be the unified across all platforms.

 

wait, u played "the force unleashed"? ah, than u DO know action games!! gotcha! this game has the type of control i think (and hope) DS3 will have. minus the "mouse movement for camera control".

the way u moved "starkiller" in the TFU and the way u shose which direction u attack in is the same way DS3 plays on consoles. this is how i hope DS3 will play with a keyboard as well. WASD to move and chose direction of attacks. other buttons to block and attack and change stances etc. i just really REALLY dont want any cursor on screen.

 

one of the biggest things that separate action games from RPG games is that action games give u a block\dodge options. this lil addition means a lot. if u r given an option to defend yourself than that means that the entire combat system implements an AI that is suitable for blocking and evading. meaning AI that has certain attack patterns, certain attack animations (to allow reacting to it) and usually the ability to defend themselves by blocking or dodging. DS3 DOES have blocking and dodging which means that players need an action type of control scheme. not a P&C control scheme that fits this type of games a lot less.

 

p.s. - did u play magicka? it has a P&C control scheme but it has an interesting gameplay concept and it's a very humorous game. i wouldnt call it an RPG though, even if it feels like one.

andd Deathspank is also a P&C RPG that is both funny and innovative in it's art design. a definite recommendation for you, if u havent tried it yet.

Edited April 6, 2011 by topeira

[Labadal]

@Tigranes

 

I think one of the devse confirmed the possibility to use 2 controllers. I can't remember in wich topic it was.

[Maa-Jussi]

i am worried a bit about the differences between the way movement and combat is done on the consoles and how it's done on the PC.

 

Diablo type games on the Pc use the mouse-for-everything method where u left click on the ground and do auto-moving and left click on enemies to attack them or auto-walk to them and attack. this method has a lot of disadvantaged compared to the way console games solve the movement issue since there is no mouse - u push the thumbstick in the direction u wanna go and the character walk there. a different button is meant for attacking.

 

i truely hope the control scheme on the PC will not be a point-n-click method of diable but more of a WASD for movement, other keys to attack, block etc.

though it seems like the mouse movement will not be used in this game since the players don't have any control over the camera.

I'd have to disagree. Point and click works well, and is DS consistent. Using an FPS style control system would not be a good idea. Depending on the camera angles\how it (WASD style control) was implemented it might even be really old school - old school as in DOS generation side scrolling. Mouse precision's better. As for keys to block and attack, is this a console fighting game Street Fighter etc, or PC's DS?

If the game does not have the same edge tracking camera and mouse controls as first DS, I ain't gonna buy it. I already wasted my money on one game with poor controls (Dragon Age Origins). I want to be able to play the game with just the mouse, so I can sit back have a beverage and relax while I'm playing.

 

Jussi

[Tigranes]

Interesting... so how many games can you actually play with that setup? Can't think of a lot, unless you just set it on easy and let it do its thing.

[Maa-Jussi]

Interesting... so how many games can you actually play with that setup? Can't think of a lot, unless you just set it on easy and let it do its thing.

Well original Dungeon Siege and most Command and Conquer games are really the only ones I've played that way...

 

Everything else needs two hands most of the time. I can have a quick sip during straights when I play racing games (I use arrow keys for acceleration and steering, but use brakes with my left hand) and it's also possible in FSP games, which I play with mouse (free look enabled, button one attack, button two forward and wheel click open/use).

 

I think I play games this way, because I am super right handed, my left hand is only good for simple tasks like having a drink or pressing the button for simple actions like jump, duck, brake and so on...

 

Jussi

[topeira]

personally i think that action games i can play with one hand demand a lot less of my skills and concentration and im not interested in them.

i like games that require dexterity and good reflexes. something i can feel good at and challenged with. if it's shallow and easy than it's boring to me.

 

 

of course racing games can let u do that. i am not talking about THAT genre.

[Lord Elvewyn]

@Lord Elvewyn -

 

 

 

by your disposition and self indication of lack of hand-eye coordination i'd assume u r rather a mature gamer. for you i WOULD recommend Assassinc reed. perhaps the latest ones (assassins creed2 or assassins creed: brotherhood) as even though they are considered action games they are very good for casual gamers who are new to games. these games have mature story, fun reference for history and u actually learn something by playing them also have a light RPG elements to them. not by improving the main character but by upgrading it's tools, armor and weapons and even main villa. my friend used to play them every night after he tucked the kids to sleep when his wife was watching since they loved the story and feel of the game.

 

also Fable 3 should come out for the PC in may, in case u didnt know. u might like that one too.

 

i wouldnt recommend batman or god of war or devil may cry though. those are kinda hard core and tough, as games.

 

 

99% of the time a console version is identical to the PC version. besides Dragon age 1 and deathspank i dont think any multiplatform game was considered different between the consoles and the PC. it's important that that the feel will be the unified across all platforms.

 

wait, u played "the force unleashed"? ah, than u DO know action games!! gotcha! this game has the type of control i think (and hope) DS3 will have. minus the "mouse movement for camera control".

the way u moved "starkiller" in the TFU and the way u shose which direction u attack in is the same way DS3 plays on consoles. this is how i hope DS3 will play with a keyboard as well. WASD to move and chose direction of attacks. other buttons to block and attack and change stances etc. i just really REALLY dont want any cursor on screen.

 

one of the biggest things that separate action games from RPG games is that action games give u a block\dodge options. this lil addition means a lot. if u r given an option to defend yourself than that means that the entire combat system implements an AI that is suitable for blocking and evading. meaning AI that has certain attack patterns, certain attack animations (to allow reacting to it) and usually the ability to defend themselves by blocking or dodging. DS3 DOES have blocking and dodging which means that players need an action type of control scheme. not a P&C control scheme that fits this type of games a lot less.

 

p.s. - did u play magicka? it has a P&C control scheme but it has an interesting gameplay concept and it's a very humorous game. i wouldnt call it an RPG though, even if it feels like one.

andd Deathspank is also a P&C RPG that is both funny and innovative in it's art design. a definite recommendation for you, if u havent tried it yet.

 

I'm (slightly) over 21 if that's what you mean by mature gamer, though I think my 'unique' personality is leading you to think grey hair & walker or something

 

I did get one of the Fable games but returned it after discovering it had content I wasn't interested in.

 

No I didn't play Force Unleashed, I watched my brother play a terrible console port for a short period of time - he gave up on it - too awful though he persevered longer than I thought he would have.