recommended schools for programming

pants_happy · April 20, 2004

hello,

i'm interested in earning a Bachelor

Guaigean · April 20, 2004

I can't say specific schools, as I've only been to one, which isn't specialized in game programming. I'm entering my last year in a CS degree at the University of Alaska, and with professors willing to work with me, have been able to gear it towards gaming. A lot of the classes are things like calculus based physics, linear algebra, physics for game developers, and 3d classes have been helpful. Also, personal interest has been in the AI courses, as they help to develop a lot of enemy strategies. For the most part talking to students from other Universities, a CS degree is a CS degree, and its all what you make it. For the time I spend in class, I spend double that out of class reading texts, and programming. So it can all depend on the person. Hope this sort of helps.

pants_happy · April 20, 2004

every little bit helps, so thanks for the response. i guess you're right with the degree being the same, reguardless of where you go. there are a few colleges around here (north dakota/western minnesota) that offer cs degrees, but i would prefer to go to a college that's already focused on computer science, rather than go to an agricultural school for a computer science degree. right now i'm attending msum (minnesota state university moorhead), and classes are ok, but it's really not a school for would-be programmers. i guess it's all how you look at it. perhaps the biggest thing for me is that i need a change of scenery, so i'm just shopping around, so to speak.

a friend of mine suggested full sail before. i've checked that out, along with a few other colleges, so now i'm just looking for advice from people who've received a bachelor's in cs, and what they thought about their college.

oh, and good luck with your last year. working on AI sounds really cool, and right now is probably what i want to do the most too.

thanks for the help,

mr. happy

Chris Jones · April 21, 2004

Digipen.

I used to be pretty ignorant of their program, and discounted them as a gimmicky school. But recently they sent us some information and a course catalog in the hope that we might be interested in doing internships or hiring graduates, and I must say I was impressed with what I read.

I then had the opportunity to interview someone who is graduating from there for a position at Obsidian. Again, I was both impressed with the candidate and with the experiences he described of Digipen.

That said, the best way to get attention when trying to get a job in the industry is to show you have a passion for it by making small games yourself or modding existing games. Having the degree helps, because it shows you understand the fundamentals. But a degree alone won't get you a job in this industry.

FrankK · April 21, 2004

Agreed.

The 4 year degree offered by Digipen is pretty impressive if you plan to make a career in games. It's not a soft-core CS degree. I believe they have something like a 75% drop-out rate (you'd think they were trying to be Navy SEALS or something). However, the candidate we interviewed was extremely well prepared for an entry-level position in the gaming industry and is a candidate we have little doubt will fit the needs of an entry-level programmer.

I got my CS degree from Marquette--not really a noted CS university. There are several schools in SoCal now that offer gaming courses (UCI, USC to name at least two) for CS majors. However, if you don't get a 'game programming' degree like Digipen offers, then I highly recommend taking a year or two to creatively mod games (HL, Quake 3, etc) or make that your part-time 'job' while in school. Writing a demo is also a great way to break in. When I was modding Quake 3 it was literally a 2nd job, 6pm to 2am 5 nights a week for a year with a very understanding fiancee playing Diablo 2 on her machine to keep me company. =)

Show that you want to be in games, I guess, and show that you can program. Surviving a 4 year degree in game programming is one way, but so is devoting your spare time to creating games. In that respect, unless you go to Digipen, I would go with a university you feel comfortable with, but definately devote yourself to programming in your spare time and get active in demos and mods while you do it. Showing devotion will open up doors more than flashing a degree from MIT will. Your college of choice may help you land your first or second job, but experience will matter more in the long run.

pants_happy · April 21, 2004

thank you very much, that's some great advice from all of you. needless to say, i now have a lot more to think about. but in this case, i think that is a good thing. :rolleyes:

$@\NightandtheShape/@$ · April 21, 2004

What are the chance of getting an intern/work experience at obsidian? Just curious....

Guaigean · April 22, 2004

That is probably highly dependent on what you are skilled in :blink:

triCritical · April 22, 2004

For what its worth, if you can get into a UC, such as UCI, I highly recommend it, not just because that is where I went either. Just about all the UC's are prestigous, with UCI being in the Top 50. I guess some people might want to think long term at a very dynamic gaming community. And having a degree from a UC school can be very beneficial if you ever entertain the idea of doing something different, or for whatever reason are forced to change careers. However, it can be very competitive.

I guess at that point, experience matters more then the degree, but just a counter opinion. Selecting University should not be something someone takes lightly. I fell into that problem, and probably and found it very difficult getting into a good graduate school. As for USC, which someone else mentioned. If you want to work in the LA vicinity, USC is the way to go. There are a lot of USC alumni in hiring positions around the city of LA.

Chris Jones · April 23, 2004

What are the chance of getting an intern/work experience at obsidian? Just curious....

We currently aren't doing any internships, but that doesn't mean we are opposed to doing them. I think we have just been too busy to pursue it much yet.

If you have skills that would be applicable to an internship here, then you should follow the directions on our website and send us your resume.

Gorth · April 23, 2004

Funny,

I always though of game design as an artform. Either you had it, or you didn't (I dont ) . A bit like a painter, either you have talent or you don't. A painter can learn to improve his technique through instruction and practise, but the technique is only a tool. Question: What do they actually teach students in such courses, apart from the technical aspects ? Or is it all tools for the student to figure out how to use ? :blink:

Chris Jones · April 23, 2004

Funny,

I always though of game design as an artform. Either you had it, or you didn't (I dont ) . A bit like a painter, either you have talent or you don't. A painter can learn to improve his technique through instruction and practise, but the technique is only a tool. Question: What do they actually teach students in such courses, apart from the technical aspects ? Or is it all tools for the student to figure out how to use ?

This discussion isn't about game design, it's about programming. Programming is very technical, and requires a lot of education (either formal or self) to be good at it. I do agree that even with programming people either have the talent or they don't. But even with the talent, those without the education don't have the background to make the correct decisions on a daily basis and usually waste a lot of time trying to solve problems that have already been solved.

For a school like Digipen, the focus is on the technical aspects (at least for programmers). The difference between somewhere like Digipen and a UC, is that Digipen will provide you with a foundation that is more specific to game development, rather than just a general purpose CS degree.

Gorth · April 23, 2004

i'm interested in earning a Bachelor

Guaigean · April 23, 2004

I do have an additional question to this I guess though. I am currently working on a game in OpenGL/C++ as a demo, and plan to spend the next year or so working my spare time through college on this game. What would be some good things to inorporate if I expect to get hired at a company like Obsidian. (Not applying just yet, but it wouldn't hurt to know). Currently it is planned to involve a fair amount of 3d Physics, and if possible I plan on making adding new terrains and areas as simple as I can on a one man job (i.e., blocking complex objects for reuse, etc.). If there is one thing my advisor has pounded into my head over the last three years its "reusability of code". Anything else I should keep in mind, or implement, to do a bit of showing off? (Oh, and do you look down on demo's from programmers that don't have the best of art appeal? :D )

Azarkon · April 23, 2004

For a school like Digipen, the focus is on the technical aspects (at least for programmers). The difference between somewhere like Digipen and a UC, is that Digipen will provide you with a foundation that is more specific to game development, rather than just a general purpose CS degree.

Agreed. As a CS Major at UCB, I can pretty much tell you that what you learn in most CS classes have nothing to do with programming games or programming anything, for that matter. It's highly theoretical, and prepares you for more of a scholarly than commercial job (graduate school, in particular). However, with that said, if you're good enough to survive CS at one of the top universities like MIT, Berkeley, or Stanford, you'll probably have a far broader range of options. The market recognizes university names, much like consumers recognize brand names, and when push comes to shove (as is the case in today's programming market), the guy (or gal) with the higher, more prestigious degree will win out.

Always good to have a back-up option, in other words, if game programming doesn't work out

triCritical · April 23, 2004

That is one of the reasons I liked physics. It too, was very theoretical, and completely academic with no real world applications. However, what it did teach you was how to deal with very complicated problems analytically. I chose to go in the theoretical/computational direction, and having never taken one programming class except for a numerical class that used C, probably left knowing more about programming then most CS majors in UCI.

And I completely agree, that it is probably better, to have a more general background then a specific background. Especially, since people deciding to go to college are fairly young, and really might find out that there are many jobs and areas that can be just as fun as video game programming. Although, if I had to work the video game industry I wouldn't want to a programmer. Design all the way!

Still while I think the NSF and the government continually waste money on physics research, mainly particle physics and cosmology, I think physics is one of the greatest degrees. It teaches intangible skills of being able to solve problems, as well as the ability to do stuff with computers comparable with a CS major. Not to mention the jobs available for physics major range from wall street to music. Heck the biggest computer project at UCI, was with a professor who was doing quantum gravity on a lattice. At the time he had the largest cluster in Orange County. Anyhow with a physics major, and math as well, you're options are pretty damn large. Right now I work on a software application, and the team consist of a math guy, a nuclear engineer, a physicist and an electical engineer. No CS people and we do all sorts of k3wl software stuff.

pants_happy · April 23, 2004

Design all the way!

being a designer would be really cool. i'm going to take some design-type classes if i can, just for the sheer fun of it (hopefully design+programming= a gaming machine). but i'm going to focus more on the programming aspect, probably more for job security (and wanting to program AI!) than anything else.

triCritical · April 23, 2004

but i'm going to focus more on the programming aspect, probably more for job security (and wanting to program AI!) than anything else.

The algorithms I have developed, definately have an AI aspect. In our office, we have people that can look at data, and get information out of it. Of course they are human and they know things. The hard part is to take that same data, and get the computer to make the same kind of distinctions from it as the human could do. It may sound easy, but its not, and its a whole lot fun.

Good luck with your studies!

Gorth · April 23, 2004

but i'm going to focus more on the programming aspect, probably more for job security (and wanting to program AI!) than anything else.

AI is a cool thing to study, both from an interest point and from a job security point

Its application ranges from pathfinding algorithms in games (*cough*Bioware*cough*) to working on Defence contracts, where a friend of mine ended up working for a while after university.

I know from personal experience that the subject is addictive as h**l to work with.

But as somebody might have guessed from my questions, I'm completely unfamiliar with the educational system where you live

$@\NightandtheShape/@$ · April 23, 2004

That is probably highly dependent on what you are skilled in

I was meaning more in general, i.e. Do they entertain the idea at all for any department?

$@\NightandtheShape/@$ · April 23, 2004

Design all the way!

being a designer would be really cool. i'm going to take some design-type classes if i can, just for the sheer fun of it (hopefully design+programming= a gaming machine). but i'm going to focus more on the programming aspect, probably more for job security (and wanting to program AI!) than anything else.

If you want to seriously focus on AI, then take a computer science course with AI, I know when I was looking at Uni's you could take Computer Science and AI, also psychology is useful for AI.

I have chosen to do a Computer Games Programming degree, of which I can also focus upon AI, aswell as doing a bit of programmer art, and a little design aswell. I'd love to be a designer but I'm a better programmer so I have chosen to concentrate upon that.

Whatever you choose to do good luck to you!

Chris Jones · April 24, 2004

I do have an additional question to this I guess though. I am currently working on a game in OpenGL/C++ as a demo, and plan to spend the next year or so working my spare time through college on this game. What would be some good things to inorporate if I expect to get hired at a company like Obsidian. (Not applying just yet, but it wouldn't hurt to know). Currently it is planned to involve a fair amount of 3d Physics, and if possible I plan on making adding new terrains and areas as simple as I can on a one man job (i.e., blocking complex objects for reuse, etc.). If there is one thing my advisor has pounded into my head over the last three years its "reusability of code". Anything else I should keep in mind, or implement, to do a bit of showing off? (Oh, and do you look down on demo's from programmers that don't have the best of art appeal? :D )

What impresses me the most is seeing a completed game that I can play, rather than a bunch of buzzword techniques wrapped up in a demo that very loosely represents what could possibly be described as or used in a 'game'. A graphics demo != a game demo.

In other words, don't get caught up thinking you need to have a lot of fancy features, just make a fun little game. There are a lot of different aspects to game programming, not all of which are considered fun or interesting to a lot of people. Yet they are still things that need to get done. Having a playable game, even if it doesn't have crazy graphics and physics, shows me that you have the perseverance and passion that it takes make it in this industry. It also shows you what making a game is really all about and gives you a chance to decide if it is really what you want to do for a living.

When approaching something like this, you should set your sights low at first, and once you have something playable just iterate it and continue to add features and try new things. If you start off with this big checklist of complex technical features, chances are you will never end up with a working game/demo.

And no, I generally don't care at all about what the art looks like. Programmers need to be able to know their way around art tools and create basic art for testing purposes, but I certainly don't expect them to be good at art.

Guaigean · April 24, 2004

Heh, good to hear that my art will be overlooked. As far as too large a scope, I have narrowed my project quite a bit. Originally I had illusions of grandeur when I decided to build a 3d game. I spent 8 months just drafting ideas and basic functions, and realized it was far too huge. Now it has become a much smaller, realistic game over the design process, and I have made sure to allot myself plenty of time over the next year, as I spent the last 3 yrs cramming in 18-20 credit semesters. Should give me the time I need. Thanks a lot for the advice, and I will make sure whatever I do is polished and playable.

nik_bg · May 21, 2004

I am a programmer, and what would like to say in general is that your eduation has almost nothing to do with your abilities as programmer. You are born as programmer or not born - and it is true for any profession. The education means nothing, there are milions of textbooks on any subject - the only important is your genes and brain abilities. What do you think?

Nik.

merry andrew · May 21, 2004

I am a programmer, and what would like to say in general is that your eduation has almost nothing to do with your abilities as programmer. You are born as programmer or not born - and it is true for any profession. The education means nothing, there are milions of textbooks on any subject - the only important is your genes and brain abilities. What do you think?

Nik.

I disagree. Most "brain abilities" must be developed, usually through some sort of education. Self-education of a subject such as programming is possible, but only certain individuals can successfully teach themselves the things that educators can.

recommended schools for programming

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